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@ludofl3x
Nailed it again!I'm trying to start conversations. You're trying to end them by being, basically, a miserable twat.
Another classic: Intercessory Prayer and Efficacy
Posts
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@ludofl3x
You are so stupid to theism and religion you should be banned. If you can't address theism in general or allow theists in general to respond than quit posting as you are an atheist bigot.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Please show me the post in this thread wherein you addressed the following question, AKA the original topic: why do you believe whatever creation myth you believe to the exclusion of any other creation myth, what logic or information did you follow to get there. Your responses are nonsense and the very definition of no-value-add. Feel free to report me if you think I'm violating some term or condition, or better yet take matters into your own hands and ignore me, or maybe pray that whatever gods you worship INTERCEDE in our conversation or in my life in general. But if I'm correct, I think you're the one here who has suffered the indignity of a temporary ban, no?
Also, how is anyone stupid TO something? Do you mean ABOUT? Don't get yourself all wound up and lose your faculties, it's not worth it.
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@ludofl3x
I addressed the topic and you said I was stupid. Do your own leg work, prick. Bring up reporting a violation of rules. I was threatened with being banned for it. May want to delete that. Being banned by a liberal, theist hating homo is not indignity. Fucking prick. If you are too smart to understand theism don't post here. If you don't want theists posting here, then don't post here either.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you are too smart to understand theism don't post here. If you don't want theists posting here, then don't post here either.
I'm starting to wonder if in in fact you are struggling with the concept of DEBATE and message boards in general. I have tried to help and to coax you along, but you react like a child whenever anyone asks you WHY you believe anything you believe. You simply say "Because it's my right to, you fucking gay homo tard liberal bigot, how DARE you threaten my freedom!" That is an inane and unworkable response and not conducive to productive discussion. Grow up and participate thoughtfully.
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@ludofl3x
You don't care about what I or any theist thinks. You are here to spread atheism and tell us were are beneath you and stupid. So I do it first and you can't stand it. Not my fault you don't like being treated like a bigot when you are one. Address it with the staff. I am not being nice to evil pricks.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't care what you think because you never, in any meaningful way, elucidate it with anything other than moronic invective, name calling and some weird personal insecurity I have nothing to do with. To wit, your last response. It's...well, it is insane. You've demonstrated not a single well formed thought, even one I've disagreed with (in fact especially these!), in however many hundreds of posts you have. It's sad. I on;y hope whatever institution you end up in (to be clear that has nothing to do with your religions, plural) but more to do with whatever damage there is mentally that undergirds this persona you've built, whatever institution is tasked with helping you, I hope they limit your internet message board time. You clearly aren't well equipped to handle the back and forth. Be better, I'm rooting for you!
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@ludofl3x
Like I said. Bigot. P.S. I have one religion. Learn a definition you fucking tard.
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@ludofl3x
There is only One Church. If your church was not that church, it isn't the church. You can dispute me on this and make it an arbitrary thing, but you'd be wrong.
The Church doesn't teach that God absolutely determined everything. If that was the case, you would not have free will. This is what Calvinists teach, and they are not The Church.
God doesn't change because The Ultimate Reality precedes time and is not subject to it. There is never a time when God is not The Ultimate Reality.
And as such, God can see the end and beginning of all things. We still have free will though, even if God knows what we are going to choose.
And that is what The Church teaches.
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@ludofl3x
The OT god functions like a superpowered greek or Roman god, so it might make sense to pray to THAT god to intercede, but the god of the NT is the one with the plan. Christians say they're the same god somehow, hence the question.
I think it took a while for a class of Christian 'profesional theologians' to arise and begin nit-picking over the details. There were Christians beore there was a NT; presumbly the NT was developed to create some sort of standardisation.
Christian theologians struggled to bring the Hebrew YHWH, the Christian God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit into a coherent, monotheistic framework an diputes remain open to today!
AFAICT, theogians have not written much about the paradox of intercessionary prayer and God's ominscience and omnipotence.
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@keithprosser
The disputes are only among the heretics, because Orthodoxy knows and recognizes that there is no old testament God and new testament God. There is one God, and it is the same God.
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@Mopac
There is only One Church. If your church was not that church, it isn't the church. You can dispute me on this and make it an arbitrary thing, but you'd be wrong.
Please advise the criteria that everyone should be able to follow to be a member of whatever church you're a member of. It's the only one that's right, I expect there's some good reasons for that. I'm not the one making it an arbitrary thing at all, I'm asking for criteria. You are saying, arbitrarily "Mine's right because I'm in it." Unless you have other compelling reasons...though every time I've asked, you've said some variation of Ultimate Reality woogedyboogedyboo, and say since I don't believe it already, I won't believe it. Pretty sure that's not how believing things work. Of course, you could ask the talking rhinoceros I rode to work today if you like. If you don't believe I have one, then you can't talk to him.
The Church doesn't teach that God absolutely determined everything. If that was the case, you would not have free will. This is what Calvinists teach, and they are not The Church.
Now we're getting somewhere. So your version of god has no plan, a necessary condition of humans having free will as far as I can tell. God sets things in motion and then waits and watches for whatever happens and makes his judgements based thereon, right? Except that only works if he doesn't already know exactly what you're going to do.
God doesn't change because The Ultimate Reality precedes time and is not subject to it. There is never a time when God is not The Ultimate Reality
Okay. Demonstrate either.
as such, God can see the end and beginning of all things. We still have free will though, even if God knows what we are going to choose.
Can we choose to do something that's against the will of god? Wouldn't that be surprising to god?
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@ludofl3x
If you wanted to join, I suggest walking in to one and talking to a presbyter about it. They wouldn't immediately let you join the church, you would first go through a period of time as a catechuman where you would be educated about the faith and are given plenty of time to change your mind.
No, you cannot surprise God because as I said, God knows everything that you are going to choose out of your free will. God knows where you are going to be in 10 years. It isn't that God has no plan, it is that it was God's plan that things are this way.
If God was subject to time, then time would be a reality over God. As God is The Ultimate Reality, this cannot be the case. Time was created by God, who existed before time and has existence outside of time.
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@Mopac
If god can't be surprised, then free will is an illusion: you cannot choose something god hasn't already planned, otherwise you'd be surprising god. Please explain how you can have a plan and know the outcome for every person's every decision, and that person then has free will. Are you saying, for example, that a mouse in a maze with only one way out has free will in choosing how to get out of the maze? There's only one exit, even if the mouse doesn't know that. If he wants out, there's only one path, but I don't think that's exercising free will.No, you cannot surprise God because as I said, God knows everything that you are going to choose out of your free will. God knows where you are going to be in 10 years. It isn't that God has no plan, it is that it was God's plan that things are this way.
Please define 'to exist' without using any words related to space or time. These are the two necessary contingencies of existence.
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@ludofl3x
Bear with me here!
Let's suppose you decided to have tea rather than coffee with breakfast this morning. You have free will, yet I can know you chose tea because it is in the past.
However I cannot know what you will choose tomorrow because tomorrow is in the future, and for me the past and future are different.
But for a god, (outside time) past and future are the same. Hence a choice you will make tomorrow and a choice you made this morning are equally visible an eqully knowable to a god.
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@keithprosser
But for a god, (outside time) past and future are the same. Hence a choice you will make tomorrow and a choice you made this morning are equally visible an eqully knowable to a god.
Agreed, but that still doesn't account for the planning for what I'm going to have with breakfast tomorrow. Perhaps I'm being imprecise, though given the rest of these jokers around here I'm not going to apologize too profusely. There's a difference between knowing something will happen and PLANNING FOR something to happen, though. If you planned for me to choose tea on day 543, then you'd have to set in motion some circumstance to get there.and I'd have only the illusion of choice on day 543. Just as you planned. Free will is not, at least as far as I can tell, in any way compatible with a god who has a plan for every person. No matter the stripe of Christianity, this is what is regularly claimed:the lord has a plan for you.
If your meant to be a fire fighter, teacher or president of a nation what the fuck does what you eat for breakfast matter. You people are dumb as shit.
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@ludofl3x
Space and time are necessary contingencies for created things. God is not a contingent existence. The Ultimate Reality cannot be contingent on anything, otherwise it wouldn't be what it is. It cannot require another reality to exist.
Though it might be hard to wrap your head around, you have free will and this in no way compromises God's sovereignty over all of creation.
Obviously, we don't truly have free will. Like, I can't jump to the moon and back on a whim. But as Keith pointed out, you have a freedom of choice. You can choose to go with God or you can choose to reject God. Nothing you choose undermines God in any way.
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@Mopac
...you have free will...Obviously, we don't truly have free will...
I think we're done here. It can't be both. You are literally occupying two exclusive positions. You either have or do not have free will. These are dishonest arguments.
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@ludofl3x
God can certainly change his mind,eg Ex32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."and there are several other examples. So whatever theory is developed has to accommodate that God's plans can change!
Theologians have an impossible task because scripture is full of contrdictions and pardoxes. Islam solves that problem using the principle of 'abrogation'; Christians prefer to split into factions!
God is imaginary, so his powers are limited only by our imagination. But my imagination balks at what it is like to be 'outside time'. Is what I plan you to do on day 543 still in the future or is it in the past already? Is it both past and future, or maybe it's neither?
But I do know how many angels can dance on a needle: 8.6766*10^49
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@ludofl3x
That is clearly taken out of context.
Free will is not being able to do whatever you want. That is not the free will you have.
Free will is the freedom of choice.
Like the choice to love the truth or arbitrarily disregard it in favor of the delusions of your fancy.
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@keithprosser
Theologians have an impossible task because scripture is full of contrdictions and pardoxes. Islam solves that problem using the principle of 'abrogation'; Christians prefer to split into factions!
There is no such issue in The Church, and there are no factions in the church. You are either Orthodox or Heterodox.
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@Mopac
Things are more settled now, but over the centuries differences over the theological interpretation of scripture has caused countless splits and schisms. There are hundreds - if not thousands - of Christian denominations today.
I note that the on-going spat between Russian Orthodox and Ukraine Orthodox is not over scripture - but it looks like another split is on the cards!
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@keithprosser
Constantinople and Russia can feud all the want, but every other Patriarch is in communion with both, so that pretty much invalidates the idea that there is a genuine schism.
The prevailing opinion that I get is that it will blow over.
There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
None of these other so called churches are it.
And they can debate over interpretations of scripture all they want, but The Church existed before their scripture was compiled by THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH.
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@Mopac
There is only One Church.
You need to get out more.
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@Mopac
And as such, God can see the end and beginning of all things.
So your god deliberately creates people to torture them for eternity. Good God.
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@disgusted
That might be what Calvinists believe, but that isn't what The real Christian church teaches, and there is only One Real Christian Church.So your god deliberately creates people to torture them for eternity. Good God.
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@Mopac
It is what you teach you just don't have the courage to acknowledge or address it.
God can see the end and beginning of all things.
God can see you in hell before creation so he creates you for the sole purpose of torturing you for eternity, that's your claim.
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@disgusted
Not at all. The individual made that choice when they decided they didn't care about the truth anymore.
We were given free will by God. Just because God knows what we are going to do does not mean that God dictates what we do.
So if you find yourself in hell, just remember.. God didn't put you there. You chose to be there.
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@Mopac
Not at all. The individual made that choice when they decided they didn't care about the truth anymore.
So you now claim that your god sees you in hell and you can do something that will prove his knowledge wrong and prove he isn't all knowing.
We were given free will by God. Just because God knows what we are going to do does not mean that God dictates what we do.
This is meaningless in relation to the matter under discussion. Before creation your god saw my entire life of choices and my spending eternity in hell and he still created me to satisfy his psychopathic sadism. Good God.
So if you find yourself in hell, just remember.. God didn't put you there. You chose to be there.
God created me for the pleasure he gets from torturing me for eternity, because before he created anything he saw me in hell and created me anyway. He's the only one who can put me in hell. Try a little thinking, it doesn't take much.