The Contingencies of gods.

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  • disgusted
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    The three most prominent gods are Yahweh, Jesus and Allah. These gods are totally contingent upon the two books written about them. Without the bible and the quran these gods would not exist in the awareness of humans.
    Given that, I wonder what gods would be the most prominent without those two books?
    ie Which gods would you worship in their place?
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @disgusted
    The problem of course is that these books have been written. This tends to support the notion that there may be truth to something within their pages. 
  • keithprosser
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    I don't know if was the books necessarily, but Christianity is big today because it was adopted by the Roman Empire and hence promoted across a vast swathe of the earth.   The religion of Rome survived the downfall of its empire, so had not worship of Zeus and company been replaced by worship of the Christian trinity by imperial decree it could well be the olympian gods we argue over today.

    Similarly islam was spread far and wide by the mohammedan empire.  I think islam was invented to be a pan-imperial religion to promote unity in a very ethnically diverse empire.  It happened to use variant of Judaism as its core , but maybe a differnt basis could have been chosen.

     
  • ludofl3x
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    I think the answer would be some form of the pantheon, if we worshiped gods at all. The pantheon explains a lot of the problems that omni-gods from the monotheistic traditions run into (problem of suffering, natural disasters, the non-interventionist nature of divinity, etc) pretty easily. But I'm not sure they'd have withstood the renaissance and the age of enlightenment, either. Largely those gods were results of people not knowing how nature worked and inventing awesome stories about that. I think the advent of the microscope and the telescope would have forced them to the fringes, they weren't really the kind of gods who would have fit well with the god of the gaps technique. 
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Yahweh and Allah are the same god. The Jews had the first book but why bother with facts when dipshits are talking. 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The problem of course is that these books have been written. This tends to support the notion that there may be truth to something within their pages. 

    The mere fact that a book was written is no guarantee that its pages cintain any truth and no truth wuthin a book guarantees that anything else in a book would also be true. The point though is that right or wrong human beings tend to look for comfort in religions and since we both agree that the bulk of religions are man made that means that in the absence of abrahamic religion another sort would almost certainly take it's place. I don't see that your objections are relevant to the thought experiment.
  • secularmerlin
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    @Polytheist-Witch
    There are many who deny that vehemently. How shall I evaluate their claims against yours in 9rder t9 see which of you (if any) are actually correct?

  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @secularmerlin
    I don't care what you do, pig. 
  • secularmerlin
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    @Polytheist-Witch
    That does not answer my question. Pretend for a moment That a fellow theist had asked this question. How would you answer them?
  • WyseGui
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    You might be right about Jesus but Yahweh was around long before the bible. I'm pretty sure Allah is the same God. I think it would depend on the culture. Maybe no god and you prey to your ancestors. A lot of ancient cultures preyed to the sun. It is the closet thing to a God we have. Most likely that. The Sun. All hail.

  • disgusted
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    --> @WyseGui
    Yahweh was around long before the bible.
    EVIDENCE?

  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Rabbinic writings indicate that the Oral Torah was given to Moses at Mount Sinai, which, according to the tradition of Orthodox Judaism, occurred in 1312 BCE. The Orthodox rabbinic tradition holds that the Written Torah was recorded during the following forty years,[37] though many non-Orthodox Jewish scholars affirm the modern scholarly consensus that the Written Torah has multiple authors and was written over centuries.[38]

    Considering the Jews existed before the Bible and the Torah was around before the Bible. Any moron would know that. 
  • WyseGui
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    --> @disgusted
    I think the first record mention of Yahweh was the Mesha Stele and that was create around 840 BCE. Also, Im pretty sure it's used in the Hebrew Bible. Which is basically the old testament.
  • disgusted
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    --> @WyseGui
    Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. Try again.
  • disgusted
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    So if your books didn't exist then your gods wouldn't, Your gods are contingent on your books.
  • disgusted
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    --> @WyseGui
    That makes Chemosh a god, good for you.
  • WyseGui
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    --> @disgusted
    You are all over the place my friend. But Im going to reply anyway.


    Don't look now but the OT is part of the bible and Yahweh is first created in that book. Try again
    Not sure what point you are making here. To my understanding the Mesha Stele the the first recorded mention of Yahweh the God of the Jews. He was also mentioned in the Hebrew bible which the OT in the christian bible was written from. Pretty sure we an all agree the Hebrew bible came first.

    Your other 2 comments are unfounded. I never made any of those claims so Im not sure where that came from. You asked for evidence that Yahweh was mentioned before the bible. I gave it.
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Better tell the Native Americans and Africans they need a book

  • WyseGui
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    --> @disgusted
    The ancient Egyptians had Gods and no Books. They worshiped the Sun God Ra along with many others.
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @keithprosser
    Not sure that I agree.  Christianity was well established prior to becoming the Roman religion of the time. It is my understanding that Constantine made a political decision to make it the state religion because it already was so large and spread and getting  bigger because of the Roman laws against it and the persecution against it.  He made a political decision and for whatever it is worth - it happened. Many in the Christian world including me - think that his political decision seriously hampered Christianity - and has led to its slowing down in growth. And indeed to its divisions in many ways. Just one example is suffice I think. Prior to Constantine - the church never met in established church buildings. They met in homes or at the river or in groups. But they never had the notion to have their own particular church building. The church was known as the people. From that time however - Constantine built church buildings and gave many laws in favour of Christians - - now today many people think of church - and think building - not the people. Constantine reduced Christianity to a religion. What Constantine ought to have done is simply made Christianity legal, allowing them to worship one God and left it as that. It would have been more in line with his Roman background of polytheism. 

    I think Christianity would absolutely still be the most significant religion today without Constantine - and probably more so. It is after all, the only worldview on this planet which provides real hope and life.  


  • disgusted
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    --> @WyseGui
    What relevance has this to the OP?
  • disgusted
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    --> @Tradesecret
    What relevance has this to the OP?
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    The problem of course is that these books have been written. This tends to support the notion that there may be truth to something within their pages. 

    The mere fact that a book was written is no guarantee that its pages cintain any truth and no truth wuthin a book guarantees that anything else in a book would also be true. The point though is that right or wrong human beings tend to look for comfort in religions and since we both agree that the bulk of religions are man made that means that in the absence of abrahamic religion another sort would almost certainly take it's place. I don't see that your objections are relevant to the thought experiment.

    Yes,  I used the word "tend", not the word guarantee. My point in a general sense is that "where there is smoke, there is probably fire". And the fact that discussing contingencies on such a hypothetical basis and intentionally dismissing probably the most well known religions seems to be a question that is based not so much on curiosity as spite. 

    I don't look for comfort in my religion. Yes, I know you will probably disagree with my assessment. But the other point here is that God is not bound by a book. The OT Jews lived for a long time knowing God prior to the book being written. Books record things - but prior to books - people remembered things. And not like Chinese whispers - but really remembered things. We have lost this art today. But in some countries around the world where books are not utilised very much, these stories of the past are remarkably accurate. Books I think provide for education - reading and writing. The Israelite nation had a 50% literacy rate. All males had to read to pass their religious rites. Well before most nations - probably next to China and possibly Egypt - one of earliest education nations. 


  • keithprosser
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    --> @Tradesecret
    All we have to do is get Doctor Who to change the outcome of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge and see what difference it makes!

  • disgusted
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The problem of course is that these books have been written. This tends to support the notion that there may be truth to something within their pages. 
    The Harry Potter books have been written. This tends to support the notion that there may be truth to something within their pages. 

    I don't think so.