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@mustardness
Right, but when you say consciousness, are you saying there's something behind the wheel experiencing it? Because that's what I think. Not necessarily a "mind" but something that is taking in the experience.
Tell me what you believe.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Right, but when you say consciousness, are you saying there's something behind the wheel experiencing it?
Carbon is tetrahedral arrangment of 4 atoms ergo at minimum, 6 lines-of-charge relationship.
God knows how many lines of gravitional and dark energy { graviton/dakrion } relationship exists between those four electrons.
Ive have some ideas --while at work, driving and bedtime-- of atttaining a baseline for that via my four level/line numerical based spiral and invertin-outverting torus, similar to what Ive done with graviton/dakions 78 lines-of-relationship, however, there is another related pathway I'm exploring,
and that is the approximatation of Pi { 3.133 } * 66 = 206.778 ergo approximate to mass of the muon electron { 206.7572826 }
66 is the number of lines-of-relationship between 12 vertexes { \Y/ } or 12 nodal point events { V }.
Feynmans question to self on his blackboard was 'why does the mass of the electron repeat itself at approxmately 206.7, tho he may have just rounded off to 207 in his original comments. I forget.
Pi^3{ XYZ } = 31.00 62 7 66
Pi^4{ XYZ + t }, minus 31 = 66.4
Pi^4 = 97.4 0 9 0 91 0 34 00 24 37 23 644 0 33 26 887 05 - 31 = 66.4
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
My only real problem with being incorporeal would be if it was define as being non interactive
Okay, than maybe i can concede it could be a little of both corporeal and incorporeal. Or, it could just be incorporeal and the only way it can interact with this world is through us. If it's a little of both, since we are talking about consciousness at an infinite level... that would just be stupid intelligence, maybe it's figured out a way to interact. It isn't inconceivable that would be something it can do. That's why i favor infinite consciousness type platforms (i'll call source from now on for ease). Bc in such a platform, it would be a little of both, or maybe just physical, i really don't know. I think speculating on the exact parts of a source is hard. To me, it's not inconceivable that it hasn't figured it out. What i do know, if i use my experiences as evidence, whatever it is can interact through me at the very least, as far of knowledge i have.
That also means that it could ultimately be detected with the best possible technology.
This is good bc it will also address some of your other questions. I understand how you'd rather stay skeptical until there is evidence, but what scientists are calling evidence presently doesn't even scratch the surface of metaphysics. What they are doing is using material tools to prove material things. Imagine someone asks for a grant bc "it's good for humanity to just know," they'd be laughed out of the room. Currently, humans only value material gains that will give results and most importantly, money. We haven't begun to try and understand the metaphysical. When i here there is no proof, i kinda laugh inside. Not only have we not begun even trying to look, it's only been a couple generations we have profound scientific understanding. It's seriously just human nature trying to be the best and smartest, but honestly, i find it the height of arrogance for them to say something isn't true. So image, you're stopping at the physical bc you'd rather believe current dogma over just saying "screw it you don't know Mr. scientist." I'm not saying your stuck in it in anyway nor being disrespectful. I'm just saying, just think to yourself why do you believe these people's definition of evidence and, isn't it just material evidence? How can you get metaphysical answers through material methods?
Do you believe that we're in a simulation?
Of sorts. Not a computer simulation. Now, understand all these other ones i'm not saying aren't possible, i've just chosen to pick this source platform. Let me explain the source platform through an analogy i've learned. Imagine everything was infinite sand. Everything in this sand exists right? What i mean is, if i build a sandcastle and that sandcastle collapses, it still exists in the sand. For it to be actualized and experience other castles it manifests as a physical sandcastle. However, when it collapses, it's still there but becomes one with the source it came from. That's how i see the source platform. It's more complicated than infinite sand bc this platform is an intelligence as well which comes with many implications. One implication being that we have individualized within this platform to experience. This i believe is the case bc the implications of solipsism. If it's the source choosing our experiences for us, then it's no different than it just knowing all the experiences. For it to truly experience is to allow us individual selves experience. Now, i don't think the source is a "who" rather just a platform. But i think the platform, since it's everything, already knows this and it just happens.
So, in regards to experiences, i've had more than i can remember now. Each time i lost hope they're real too. They kept getting more and more profound. Now, i'd love to share them... but let me know if you want full context bc i've shared them a lot on this site and quite frankly, it will be a couple more paragraphs if i do share them all.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I'll tell you a more recent experience for context of what i mean by experiences.
It all started with dreams. I was having re-occurring dreams i was in vegas looking for something. Very annoying dreams bc i couldn't find what and i would wake up. At the end of the year, a friend asked me to go to vegas on a tour bus with others. Normally, 100% of the time i would have said no. But this time, i was curious about the dreams so i went. First day there was very weird. I just felt awkward and had a feeling that day just wasn't right but i still had fun anyways. Toward the end of the night i was in a room playing piano (cool room btw). Than all of the sudden i felt just off. My friend ran up to me and said we need to go back to our room. Got there, everyone was crying. Friend in the bathroom was throwing up blood. I counted it every 3-5 minutes. Some stuff happened in bw (mainly who will take him to the hospital and calling hotel personnel up), but as soon as it was decided he needed to go to the hospital, i got hit with two things simultaneously. One, i heard a voice (i never do btw) clearly say, "tell everyone to leave you can heal him" and hit with a fuzzy feeling that's hard to describe. It feels like there is a fuzzy energy radiating from my body. So i told everyone to leave. And sat there confused, the whole time having that fuzzy feeling too. He threw up again, i waited... he threw up again. So, i thought if this doesn't work i gotta take him now. I put my hand on his head, that fuzzy feeling felt like it drained from my feet to the last of it leaving my fingers into my friend, and again at the exact moment the last of it left my finger tip to him, he breathed a breathe of relief and smiled. Before that his facial expressions were all in pain.
Now, of course i've critically thought of this... i have all my experiences (3 of the other ones on the same level of profoundness - ask me if you want to know). Real quick, i define them profound bc they had more than 1 or 2 coincidences that had to happen... this one has like 6 or more. So my critical thought obviously is he healed on his own. But even if that is the case, what is all the other stuff before it? Did i know this exact moment a year in advance? But going off coincidence alone... the way things fell into place i would say is pretty crazy. And if i did heal him... then just wow. And btw, i realized after this experience i've had that fuzzy feeling one other time before, and in that experience, it was a healing one too. That is one of my other profound ones, but i never share that one. It's too personal.
So, not only have i had experiences to this level, i've had more than a dozen other experiences of precognition. I can't control them, i don't know when they happen, but i do know what should trigger them... although, those don't have a timeline either. So, basically... it's not testable. For someone like me to ignore that i've had these is hard; it's even harder sharing them in person. I share them here bc if you call me deluded i really don't care, but i assure you i'm not. I truly have been searching for answers to these my whole life (why it's a curse - it's always on your mind). So another thing a source platform answers is not only why i had the experiences but also why it's rare and only a few can posses this unlucky lottery. That is why i truly think there is evidence. Now, a lot of it is muddied bc humans are petty greedy creatures, but only one has to be true for the implications to be wild, i've had one... and i'm sure someone else out there has too. At least i hope so bc i truly don't want to start pondering solipsism bc that scares the crap out of me. But if i am the only one... that's one logical conclusion i would have to make.
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@Outplayz
On the first one.
I would concede that such a state of affairs is possible (incorporeal that communicates or interacts strictly through us.). so once I know something is possible, the next step for me is showing that it's necessary for my model of reality. Part of making sure we have true beliefs is to make sure we're not taking on unnecessary beliefs. Now obviously it's hard to just say that something is necessary unless It's intuitive, but the best way is the impossibility of the contrary. So I would then ask if the opposite is impossible. The answer is obviously no, so this leaves me having to be skeptical about it at least. I could go further and say that I would claim it's not true at all, but I can't go 100% there at the moment because it's a fresh concept that I have to slush around in my brain. So for now I'll say that there doesn't appear to be enough evidence.
On the second one.
Okay so one thing here is I don't believe we can empirically say that we "haven't even scratched the surface of the metaphysical" because we don't know where the surface is. We could be at 1% of all knowledge or 99% and we wouldn't necessarily know it. Although a good sign that we reach metaphysical is when we start getting self evidence and complete inductions. For instance. Math is technically metaphysical because we know it to be 100% true so there is nothing beyond it, therefore we can know that it's the metaphysical barrier of math. So to an extent, we can see how far we've come, but only to an estimation at best. The other thing is that I wouldn't exactly call it dogma. That term implies that scientists hold their views in a way that's unshakable or axiomatic in some way. Science is the opposite of that. Science tests the data and let's the results do the talking. That's why scientists have to be skeptical, because to assume too much leads to dogma. The last thing here is a question. You say that physical tools are not sufficient to test metaphysical things. What tools would you suppose that we use and why are we justified to go beyond normal skepticism and make metaphysical claims?
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@Outplayz
On the third one. I reject solipsism outright, so this is a point of contention for us. I'd be happy to explain my reasoning behind this and hear your reasons for supporting it to whatever degree.
On the story. That's a pretty trippy story but they guy didn't sound like he was dying and vomit is an unpredictable thing so there's no way to know if it was your doing or not. The dream, while creepy, doesn't really show anything other than a little deja vu maybe. I would say that jumping to the supernatural conclusions in that situation would be unjustified since I could think of it least one or two ways to explain what you experienced via the natural. In general, we should except the most simple and likely solutions to problems unless there's good reason to believe otherwise.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
So I would then ask if the opposite is impossible.
Well, what is the opposite for you to say it's possible? The opposite being this all just happened naturally? How do we know that? I don't think we have enough knowledge to say either or is possible or not possible. Quantum physics is basically spitting in the face of all the other sciences since they will mostly concede that it's weird at least. We haven't figured out reality to enough degree to know if there is a metaphysical element or if it's just natural. I actually do think it's all (or mostly at least) natural however. I think we will go far. We'll just have to see where the future leads. It's way too early to tell.
I have a prediction with this specific platform however. I don't think we can know of its existence until this earth is so good that people will finish their time here over killing themselves. The implications of such a platform has no consequences other than what you believe will happen. I think if we knew this now... everyone / most everyone would kill themselves. So it's kinda not necessary now... but it will be in the future. Think of it like this illustration i learned. In the past, what mattered was strength and muscles. If you had it, you were the top dogs. Praised by everyone. Today, they are manual workers. Technology has made them irrelevant. What we value today is intellect. The ones with intellect will rise and society praises them. Technology will soon make intellect irrelevant. What will matter then? I think looking within, but it will keep going on and on. Once our tech does all our work for us, it will be a great day bc humans will finally be able to be humans. And, that will continue to go forward. In that far future, i think we will be ready for metaphysical answers... and probably, have to wait that long to find the right way to find the answers anyways. If we can't figure our own reality out fully... how can we even begin to understand an infinite consciousness? But along the way, when we've likely fully integrated with robots and can download into any simulation we want... we may know then, but even if we don't know then... we will have created it here.
what tools would you suppose that we use and why are we justified to go beyond normal skepticism and make metaphysical claims?
I may have said that a little incorrectly bc there are eastern people really diving into consciousness. I think they have a way better understanding of certain things than the West. The west is all about money. Things that get results and make money. Not let's find out if their is higher intelligences... that wouldn't get funded. That's what i mean, we aren't even really looking. Some most def. are... but our science is to get results for future technology. Which isn't bad, it's just not looking in the right place. What i know of my experiences, they are not repeatable. So our current scientific method isn't the right tool. That's all i know. What would be the right tool i have no clue. Maybe studying people that have been going within themselves... some yogis and mystics have been meditating in one spot most their lives. What have they found? What's going on in their brains? That's just an idea. All i know is a repeatable test is for repeatable phenomena in our reality. All my experiences i've had were random and i can't control it... however, before every tragedy that has effected me, i've had an experience. This is an ongoing test on myself, maybe i shouldn't even say it, but it's been perfectly accurate so far. And i do think like a skeptic so it's not just little things that can be mistaken... although one could say what they are is coincidence, but since they've happened before everyone so far... i can't ignore that consistency. But how do you test that claim... i don't know. Have some kind of neuro-link on people like me to see what happens... i would have to where it all my life, but that's an idea. Ultimately, we need to treat the metaphysical as something separate than the psychical bc just be definition it is. You can't use the same tools for one to find results for the other. Oh, and i do acknowledge science is humble. Actually, what usually sticks in my mind is when scientists say there is no god... but i think they mean it in a religious sense. Maybe if i sat down with them they'd be humble enough to say who knows. So maybe i'm just mistaken it that way. But it is pretty clear they aren't looking for metaphysical stuff in the west with as much zeal as they do in stuff that makes money. And if in the physical we know whatever they say only 5% of our world... i would say even less for metaphysical phenomena.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I reject solipsism outright, so this is a point of contention for us.
I don't really say it's not possible, but i reject it too. I was just saying if i'm the only one that has metaphysical experiences... then that's just one conclusion i can make... others being i'm god or Jesus, or the head of the matrix... i don't believe any of that bc i've used some thought to rule them out. I wouldn't have a collective type platform if i didn't believe we are a collective. I'd like to hear your reason for rejecting it if you'd like to tell me, i simply reject it bc there is death. If Solipsism is true, the one who dies and becomes alone over and over again would go mad. Imagine being infinite and alone... terrifying after you've been with others. Therefore, if it's true... i don't see why it wouldn't be lost within thought after thought and never die. It can simply do that by imaging it's immortal in a reality it can download into any simulation it wants with others and never have to die and know it's alone.
I would say that jumping to the supernatural conclusions in that situation would be unjustified since I could think of it least one or two ways to explain what you experienced via the natural.
He wasn't just vomiting... he was vomiting blood. I talked to family members that are doctors and they said most cases is poisoning and a bad sign. They usually have to see a doctor or go to the hospital... which makes this experience a little more of a trip. But, it's not impossible which is why i said, fine, rule it out and it was natural. And, fine... rule out the dreams too. It still doesn't explain the voice, the feelings, that whatever feeling, sucking into him and him healing exact moment. But, of course... we can even say those were an illusion and just coincidence. But, the whole thing still happened. And taken as a whole... that's like 6 and more coincidence that needed to happen exactly how they happened for the coincidence to unfold. Not only that, add the only other time i've had that fuzzy feeling is in another healing moment, which was more profound than this one... but even that one i could just say everything was coincidence. And trust me i have. But, i've honestly won the coincidence lottery. Like i said, this is just one about a dozen experiences i've had. I really don't know what to think at this point. Am i just that lucky? Or is there something to it? I really can't know either way (but i do acknowledge the natural explanations as much as they ignore what actually happened). Plus, the next experience was object manipulation in front of me - even weirder. The kid telling the object to spin, happened to die after this event which is important bc he thought he would bc of the "evil something there."
Long story short, the kid said his house is haunted, i didn't believe him, took off my necklace and said tell it to spin it. I held it for 5 minutes before to see the natural spin (bc i was skeptical) then said go. He said spin it right, it violently spun right to the point it was hitting my nails (i was still skeptical), told him to say stop, said it, it stopped, said tell it to go left, he said left... hit my nails going left - dropped bc i freaked out. That's another i usually share here bc it's pretty profound. Natural explanations, i spun it unconsciously. However, in order to have... my wrist needed to move for it to spin that hard... i know i wasn't and was critically looking for everything. Was it their breath? No, couldn't be for that hard of a spin. Anything in their hands to trick me? No. If it goes right all the time, should be impossible to stop on demand, then go left on demand (which is why i tested that). I'm stumped. Only natural explanation in that case was that i spun it unconsciously, but i know i didn't move bc i was watching my own hands too. So again, another experience that i can say there is a natural explanation (a little more trippy for this one however but still there) but still the experience happened. Looking at it as a whole... i'm just confused why me? In the end of the day... i keep asking that, why me? There was another person there that can corroborate it happened, so i didn't imagine it... i'm just left asking is there something more to these experiences. I really don't know. All i know is that i've experienced some weird stuff throughout my life. I further ask, "if" it is metaphysical... which ones would make the most sense to explain these.
An interesting implication of the source platform is that i've created myself here knowing the experience (like a movie)... that can be one answer too. It's my favorite bc it answers these experiences i've had, plus it also correlates to our science as well... i'm sure similar to your observations of collective consciousness. I always say i'm not sure, but find this one to be most accurate so far. Plus, i've noticed most people that dive into understanding consciousness (eastern philosophies) have realized a platform like this too. That further peaked my interest. But honestly, i don't really care about the platform that much... bc multiple platforms can give me what i believe in my OP. This is just one of them i feel is most accurate currently.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I think the only difference between us, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe that "your" specific mind will survive in an afterlife and I believe that consciousness is a collective of certain particles that produce agency. so my mind is a clump of consciousness particles that gives me advanced perception when combined with my sensory organs. I believe that once I die, these particles will separate back in into their own individual primitive consciousness (think of this like your consciousness being like static) and that eventually some of all of these particles will reform to make a new consciousness. I also believe in a cyclic universe. Do you think your consciousness is ultimately physical or metaphysical?
Metaphysical, both consciousness and the mind are but not the physical body. Just from another point of view, not trying to butt in on your convo with Outplayz but don't conflate awareness (consciousness) with the mind and the mind with the physical brain or body...it's the brain which decomposes with the physical body not the mind. The brain and the mind are only tools to navigate creation but who you are and your origin exists entirely independent of the brain and the mind. The brain, mind and consciousness are actually three different things although they culminate/combine to isolate your individual experience in this present moment they all have a separate function and order of operation. There is a chain of order and a process of things, you have conscious awareness, then you have the mind, and then you have embodiments to experience through. The embodiments can experience death while both the mind and consciousness stay in tact and this is possible because of how the Creator covered the soul...the order of how we are individualized.
The (individualized) mind, which exists independent of the brain is an energetic field that surrounds the soul where consciousness stores memory and information where it develops it's own personality, it is dependent on consciousness but not the physical body and so survives the physical death and remains as long as consciousness is using it. The physical body is the manifestation of the mind, and the mind is a manifestation of consciousness....the mind does not exist without an observer and the body does not exist without first a mind, but awareness is what illuminates the mind.
The mind itself is inanimate and machine-like in nature and you can observe this with the activity of people who are controlled by it, however, like awareness it does not need a human body to stabilize it's existence so both the conscious soul and the mind survive what we know as death of the body, and the ego, or your personality remains intact. The only thing that changes is your vehicle not your observation point, all the information that creates what you are now gets carried over no matter the vehicle your using because that "information" or blueprint of yourself is not dependent on human or earthly form and the "particles" that make up that form. It has its own isolated frequency. When you leave the physical body you will be conscious in the astral/spirit body, your mind will still be intact. You have several subtle bodies that you will observe through while your mind still exists. I'll try and explain a little below how that works.
The reason I pointed this out is so you understand that physical death does not mean the death of the mind and that your mind is not a clump of consciousness particles lol, your conscious being (soul) was first an agency which then uses the mind so your mind is a clump of experiential knowledge. Your conscious soul was isolated, confined and sent into the created worlds of duality which you now perceive through embodiments. Your mind is a collection of events but it's more like a library, it has no being other than your presence occupying it.
The mind will survive death because it has it's own energetic frequencies as does the material body, it's records and activities transcend the physical body and so it too remains as the physical body dissipates. This may sound unusual but the mind is an energetic sheath or "area" that surrounds and covers the conscious individualized soul. This is known as the mental body, or subtle body/layer and this allows for consciousness to project it's desires and intentions and stores information as an isolated compartment.
Nothing produces awareness or agency...what produced your individual "agency" was when you were isolated as individual consciousness directly from the heart and desire of the eternal Creator as an expression of that infinite creativity and then covered. You left the Godhead as an agency and you will always be one. When you enter a new experience as a soul inhabiting a new world and a new body it creates the illusion that it's your only life, that you were nothing before it and nothing after it but that's only your physical form and perceptions limiting the full scope of your existence. You can experience much more than the physical sense perceptions!
As long as you maintain the individualized mind (which exists apart from the body) you will exist as your personal ego, what you are think you are right now and what you will be in the future even transitioning forms. When a soul finally exits the individualized, isolated mind it joins the universal mind once again but is now even more aware of its agency and origins. So at no point will you ever lose or reform your being. Consciousness exists independent of forms or embodiments and doesn't "reform", it can change experiences through different forms and new bodies like changing channels but itself (you) stays in tact as the individual observer as well as the infinite observer, both the formed and the formless.
Continued below, damned character limits lol.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Consciousness doesn't need surroundings or form to be aware, only to experience something. It doesn't need a mind to be aware, only to categorize and define experience through memory and perception. Energy exists because first conscious activity exists, energy in return is manipulated and isolated to create form so that we can experience life and surroundings contrasted from an omnipresent, singular Reality. That omnipresent reality has to be stepped down and isolated to confine it to an individual experience. When your physical body decomposes those particles that make up that body return to the environment they came from but not your conscious and mental energies, they remain who you are because you were first a conscious being, which was enabled a mind which then inhabited a form. So what you have learned and experienced are carried over to the "afterlife" and even reincarnated experiences. A person may not be conscious of specific previous experiences but it's all in their subconscious. The reason for a culmination of experiences if for one, there is progression of the soul and two, it's the very desire and nature of consciousness to experience life. So the soul progresses through a series of experiences.
You do have an energetic "blueprint" of your soul and your culminated experiences (Akashic records) in the causal plane and the energetic field so what you are right now is not dependent on the current form you inhabit. Your physical body is dependent on its environment but your conscious and mental existence have a transcendental origin. Whatever body you embody will always carry over that blueprint even though your perceptions are confined to that body.
The energetic world is not restricted to a physical body and of course we know that energy exists independent of form and exists as varying states of frequencies so if your consciousness and mind are a collective operation of energy then that will still exist when you leave the physical body, the only thing you won't have is the conduit/components that you experience through in the human form. You will no longer have a connection that enables your experience of those senses here but you will always be the observer no matter the form you observe through. Your soul is a complete, whole conscious being and is not dependent on anything. Your mind is what you use to categorize and label your experiences but it to survives the death of the bodies.
incorporeal would be one example of something that's metaphysical yes. metaphysical simply means "at or beyond the limit of physics" So it could be something that we know 100% but in this case I was talking about that which goes beyond our knowledge. My only real problem with being incorporeal would be if it was define as being non interactive, that is to say it can't affect reality.
Non interactive is misleading, because you have an omnipresent conscious Reality that has access to every individual channel of conscious awareness and can experience and observe through all those channels, it IS those channels and created those channels, it's the same current of consciousness through every single form. That Reality creates our realities and then observes and experiences through those individualized forms. Like energy exists in form and independent of form and like electricity which can be harnessed and confined to components and machinery and at the same time exist outside those components. When you understand fully the nature of energy and the nature of consciousness then you know they can exist within forms as well there is no place where they don't exist, the current of consciousness and energy is the same, only the forms change. If the nature of consciousness is always the same and of the same origin it's the same Reality that creates form and observes through form. In essence, it creates the environments and then "interacts" with that environment through forms and embodiments.
What distinguishes form from the formless is simply isolated states of energetic frequencies but both are experienced by a singular Source of consciousness. The equivalent of what I'm describing can be seen in a Hindu description...
Brahman
"connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe."
"Brahman is identical to the Atman, is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence."
@ET
Consciousness doesn't need surroundings or form to be aware, only to experience something. It doesn't need a mind to be aware, only to categorize and define experience through memory and perception.
Thus making your consciousness the same as non existent. Without the human brain your consciousness is not even aware of itself, it therefore does not exist.
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@disgusted
Go back to bed or learn how to read. Or better yet, stop mentioning my name.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I personally think being corporeal can fit into infinite existence.
Explain how that works. How does being corporeal fit into an infinite existence? the two are a contradiction. Being corporeal means being dependent on a body. Consciousness though, is not dependent on a body, and not being so is why it fits into an infinite existence scenario. Incorporeal consciousness manifests into forms that are finite, but the soul exists independent of form, again fitting into an infinite existence.
Not if you believe in singular minds having afterlives. But if you believe in a collective consciousness like I do, then a corporeal and infinite cyclic universe works.
Singular minds having afterlives does fit into an infinite existence scenario when you first understand that consciousness is incorporeal and can manifest as finite through isolated forms which includes the individual minds endlessly. Souls are indeed incorporeal and so is the nature of consciousness, if they were not they would be contingent on the material world, making an infinite existence of no meaning or value and having no real distinction from a materialistic worldview.
Singular minds come out of the universal mind and individual souls originate from the universal, infinite consciousness....It works because both the created realms as well as the individualized soul are layered, meaning that our experiences can be temporal and virtually endless while the soul and who we become remains intact. There's a hierarchy and a progression to the soul and what it experiences, when it leaves one world it is present in the next along with its mind. When the soul leaves creation completely along with the individualized mind it exists as it's original form which would be this infinite Source.
These singular minds and afterlives are created by an eternal creative awareness so that there is a long, long journey for the soul, for you. An infinite existence creates finite experiences, which includes further experiences that transcend this one experience. Creation IS cyclical, which means experiences are endless but the soul and the origin of the soul is a fixed Reality, they remain the same. There is no dissipation of who you really are, you will always be that.
@ET
Everything I write is beyond your ken ans so as you've done for years you run away with your tail between your legs.
Your much vaunted consciousness is non existence by your very own description. Go for a fly around your god worlds and see if there are any hitchhiking spirits you can bring back to us.
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@Outplayz
Well, what is the opposite for you to say it's possible?
well the polar opposite is "no incorporeal things". which is a claim of non existence. So then we ask ourselves, what shows if non existence is possible? Well for existence to be proven, we use strong inductions (i.e. we sense something existing 100% of the times we encounter it) for non existence, it's the opposite (i.e. We have a lifetime 0% induction rate). Since corporeal has a 100% induction rate and Non corporeal has a 0% induction rate, it is only rational to begin from the position of the corporeal. While I would like their be something metaphysical out there, my opinion doesn't matter. The induction rate tells me all I need to know at the moment and to not follow it will lead to contradictions of logic.
I don't think we can know of its existence until this earth is so good that people will finish their time here over killing themselves
While that's an interesting theory and I commend of you for the good outside of the box thinking (seriously, this is a good hypothetical) I do see at least one flaw in it. Humans are programmed to survive. Even if we had proof of a heaven, we'd probably be incredulous enough not to waste our guaranteed life on earth. It comes down to "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". Furthermore, wrap your mind around this concept. If people know as an indisputable fact that killing oneself sends them to paradise, then why would suicide be wrong in this case? Wouldn't this be the same as people taking a permanent one way trip to Europe? They're not suffering, they're in heaven. Mind blowing right? I can't jump to these types of conclusions with logical seriousness though because I don't have any evidence for it.
Not let's find out if their is higher intelligences... that wouldn't get funded.
Well Christians get research grants all the time. So there's that. I haven't head of any special paranormal research coming out of the east. Is this based off current events or just your gut intuition about their spiritualism their? The Tao is probably the most popoular religion unless you go to india then it's Hinduism. Both of these faiths are actually just as rigid and strange as Christianity but us westerners look at it with mystique most of the time because it's foreign to us. I used to think Taoism was a great life philosophy until I realized that it has a bunch of silly mythology behind it and same goes for followers of Brama. Furthermore, there are plenty of paranormal researchers. Haven't you ever heard of Rupert sheldrake? He's done al kinds of metaphysical research.
I was just saying if i'm the only one that has metaphysical experiences...
Well solipsism is a claim and therefore it has a burden of proof. This is one of my main issues with it. Solipsism walks up to us and say "Your reality is false and now you have to proof it's not" while ignoring the fact that it just made a claim and needs to prove itself first. There's far more proof for reality than there is solipsism so that's my methodology for reject it. I obviously have more reasons than just this, but that's the base of it.
He wasn't just vomiting... he was vomiting blood. I talked to family members that are doctors and they said most cases is poisoning and a bad sign.
Well bad sign doesn't mean dying on the spot and sometimes people just vomit blood and then stop. I'm a little troubled that you're so quick to jump to the supernatural when you haven't ruled out all of the more likely solutions first? Don't you think it makes more sense to go with mundane causes when they apply?
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@EtrnlVw
but don't conflate awareness (consciousness) with the mind
I don't. Consciousness is the disposition of experiencing reality and the mind the abstraction for how our brain works. But both of these things are physical. Could you explain to me how they're not? My mind only works with my brain, there's evidence for this. There's not evidence of immaterial minds as far as I know.
Energy exists because first conscious activity exists
That's a claim. What's your reason for believing this? First of all, there's a conflation with the word energy There's physical energy (bosons) and abstract energy (kinetic, potential.). There is no evidence that anything created bosons nor is there evidence that bosons have ever stopped existing, so what exactly makes a mind necessary in that process? It seems to me that bosons get along just fine on their own.
The reason I pointed this out is so you understand that physical death does not mean the death of the mind
Well death is an ill defined word to an extent. Sure if your whole body stops working at once, you're definitely dead. But if just the heart stops, the brain can be saved and if the brain loses oxygen, then it gets damage and you're not you anymore. There's plenty of evidence to support that nothing of the "self" survives death. Most people don't like this, but it's the grimm reality. The mind is your brain and all the evidence points that way. While I'm not against outside the box thinking, I believe that it is foolish for us to ignore evidence that is right in front of our faces.
You keep talking about the creator, what's your evidence for a creator? I'm not really okay with bold assertions, I don't need a picture, but could you give me the logic of what a creator would be like? Because any creator I've ever thought up is a logical contradiction or is not sufficient to be a creator by measure of it's power.
Ahhhh, Brahman. While brahman is not as nonsensical is the Christian God, it's still pretty nonsensical. Any God that starts with "I am everything" Is already writing a check that it can't cash. Brahman of course goes farther than this and creates subsets of himself in the other gods, which makes it even more unlikely.
Non interactive is misleading, because you have an omnipresent conscious Reality that has access to every individual channel of conscious awareness and can experience and observe through all those channels
Well it's not misleading because I'm using science to draw that conclusion. You saying that an "omnipotent creator has access to us" is a claim without evidence. Here's an indisputable fact.
There are four known forces in the universe that humans interact with. If there's a fifth, it's because we don't interact with it because we don't see it at the moment and probably never will without a third party factor. In order for anything to be observable by humans, it must interact with one of these forces. If it does not, not only is it not observable, but it is also unable to interact with anything. So this type of being would just float around in it's own universe interacting with it's own things never seeing our world. Even if such a thing existed, it would be effectively identical to nonexistence to us because it's not a contingency of ours and is it contingent upon us. We'd be in separate plains of existence for all eternity, in a manner of speaking. (not an actual different plain, but rather it occupies what we can't and visa versa in the universe.)
Explain how that works. How does being corporeal fit into an infinite existence?
Well when I say infinite, I mean that matter and energy never stop existing. I don't mean eternal as in "heaven" It's not a contradiction at all. Evidence suggest that all matter and energy have always existed. There is no evidence of a "soul" so there's not reason for me to think that my agency is anything other than physical as well. There's not evidence to the contrary.
I don't mind talking to you but in the future, bulleting your stuff would make it easier. I can only read so much in a short time span and I want to be able to address you as thoroughly as possible. I await your responses :)
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@disgusted
I understand your frustration with supernatural claims. But ridiculing him isn't going to produce much. I know from personal experience, lol. You got to give people the best answers possible and let them find the truth for themselves.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
That's where we would heavily diverge. I don't believe that my individual mind has always existed.
Well this is true, your individual mind has not always existed (there was a point in time it was individualized) but the nature of your conscious soul has, two different things. Your individual mind is what creates your ego or personality/perceptions in creation but even that individualizes from the universal mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_mind
I believe one thing that Outplayz and I disagree on is that the mind in not animate it is inanimate and is not the first in order, it's not a being it's a compartment that the soul uses. The mind actually isn't who you are, you are first conscious awareness. The same works with the infinite, the eternal Creator is not really a mind rather this infinite Reality is pure awareness, then you have the manifestation of a "mind". Now, the projection of the universal mind from this conscious Reality are not one and the same, again, consciousness projects the mind so consciousness is always first.
Basically you have an infinite conscious Source (people label that God) and you have the projection of the universal mind. Now you have the soul, which is an individualization of that conscious Reality and it too is conscious, then you have the individualization of the mind that confines your experience to a little mind and it comes out of the universal Mind. That soul is then sheathed in several coverings and sent out as a seed to experience and develop.
So while your individualized mind has not always existed the nature of your conscious soul has, you come right out of that Reality into duality so in essence the nature of the infinite is one and the same as the individualized soul. Consciousness like energy, cannot be something other than energy or consciousness the only thing that distinguishes things in creation is forms but the current of awareness is the same in all forms. It's the mind that the soul uses along with their embodiments is what creates the illusion of separation. But when that is stripped away the illusion is no longer observable but you will still be conscious.
I believe that I'm just a collection of particles that have always existed and had consciousness and that when they break apart they'll form new minds that are nothing like mine except that they used a few of my particles. So in that sense, I will live on I suppose. There could be a case for maybe a collective conscious that has "agents" at their core. So the agent is the individual mind and the collectives are kind of like conductors or railroad tracks, however you want to think of it. Extensions of the agents. I'm not totally against that idea but it's an extra assumption so I'd need a good reason to assume it. Give me one and I will, lol. certainly agency would be nice if it was true.
But you ARE an agency and you can observe this, in all honesty you should recognize that you are. Pull back from the mind and just observe your awareness and being, it's always aware of you as the agency because that is your true observation point. Your agency is looking through the mind and body like as if they were masks (simplified analogy).
You are the observer of the mind and body, consciousness has to be an agency that is what it means to be conscious. Consciousness is not just particles floating around that collect and awareness is not just a brain with neural firing, what you see in creation and with energy, forms, particles ect ect are the results of conscious activity not the other way around. Remember the order....awareness, mind and then the manifestation and manipulation of energy and elements(matter/form). That's not to say conscious activity doesn't create substance, as I explain the very activity of consciousness generates energy and everything follows from that first Reality.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I don't mind talking to you but in the future, bulleting your stuff would make it easier. I can only read so much in a short time span and I want to be able to address you as thoroughly as possible. I await your responses :)
Sorry about the winded posts, it's not a topic I can articulate in a few paragraphs but yeah I'll try and make it easier. I'll get to your post a bit later.
I understand your frustration with supernatural claims. But ridiculing him isn't going to produce much. I know from personal experience, lol. You got to give people the best answers possible and let them find the truth for themselves.
If you've been paying attention, it's all he has is ridicule so there's nothing ever to debate. I just mainly ignore it most of the time.
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@EtrnlVw
To the first point.
okay, I think I see what you're getting at. The mind is a vehicle of the soul. So what about memories and thoughts? When my hypothetical soul leaves my mind, what does it take with it? Do I assimilate until the ether with the other souls? Do I ever come back as the same soul? Do I assimilate and then come out a different soul? Do I assimilate permanently? If so, does the soul pool just get bigger? I ask these questions to get a better idea of what you're talking about, feel free to categorize them for sake of convenience.
To the second point.
Sure, so I admit that right now, I'm an agency. But in my view that agency is enhanced by my physical being. So when I break down after death, my agency will become far more simplistic. the major divergence in our beliefs comes at the break down. I believe that my agency only happens because of groups of complex Mini consciousness that form a type of hive mind. This is not completely a bare belief because the body appears to function like a hive mind if you think about it. I'm made up of billions upon billions of microscopic primitive life forms that seem to all intuitively function towards my existence. Sounds a lot like Bees doesn't it? The difference is that this network doesn't have it's own agency. So it's kind of like this is a town and my agency is the mayor who delegates the macro tasks while leaving the micro tasks to the city laborers.
I could imagine a model with individual minds that go on after death, but I don't see the need for it. It would just be something to comfort myself. So as a thought experiment How would you consolidate agency in my worldview where everything is strictly physical? I understand you might think this is impossible. But just for the sake of rigor, I would like to see your best try at it.
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@EtrnlVw
Sorry about the winded posts, it's not a topic I can articulate in a few paragraphs but yeah I'll try and make it easier. I'll get to your post a bit later.
No problem. If you could just change paragraphs when you change thoughts, that would give me enough to make sure I cover everything regardless of the length. I don't want to restrict the depth of your rigor, lol.
If you've been paying attention, it's all he has is ridicule so there's nothing ever to debate. I just mainly ignore it most of the time.
I just noticed it so I'll audit and see if you're right. If you are, it will become apparent very quickly, lol.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I believe we are all going to d*e.
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@TheRealNihilist
I concur.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I believe that you should enter my profile picking forum post in order to broaden your horizon and possibly change your profile picture.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I understand your frustration with supernatural claims. But ridiculing him isn't going to produce much. I know from personal experience, lol. You got to give people the best answers possible and let them find the truth for themselves.
Most likely, we've had a whole lot more experience with EtrnlVw, this website and the prevoius (ddo) where Et has made claims he regularily speaks to Overlords and other Beings on planets in distant galaxies. That being one of his less delusional beliefs. He'll say one thing and then contradict himself, often in the very same sentence. Good luck.
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@TheRealNihilist
I like my profile pic, but I'll check it out.
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@Goldtop
Most likely, we've had a whole lot more experience with EtrnlVw, this website and the prevoius (ddo) where Et has made claims he regularily speaks to Overlords and other Beings on planets in distant galaxies. That being one of his less delusional beliefs. He'll say one thing and then contradict himself, often in the very same sentence. Good luck.
Sure, so let's assume this is true.
Does that permit abusive behavior?
Is he being rude?
If yes, does two wrongs make a right?
Does calling somebody delusional help them gain knowledge?
If you really care enough about his "delusional" beliefs such that you're willing to talk down about him, wouldn't it follow that you want those beliefs to change since you're putting in so much effort?
If you want to change those beliefs, doesn't it follow that we should lead by example and come at it with our minds open and provide them with the answers they seek?
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@EtrnlVw
OMG, more irrational, illogical lack of common sense talk i.e. when we {biologic } die, there is no more access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts via that dead person....The reason I pointed this out is so you understand that physical death does not mean the death of the mind...
This is plain ole rational, logical common sense and occasionally pops it existence here at DArt.
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@EtrnlVw
OMG, this is more irrational, illogical lack of common sense talk. Way to much of this nonsense at DArt.Consciousness doesn't need surroundings or form to be aware, only to experience something....
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@disgusted
Disgusted is correct. EtrW has makes many irrational, illogical and lack of common sense statements. This is typical of religiously fundamental or fanatical or radical types. They shun rational, logical common sense like vampires shun sunlight.Your much vaunted consciousness is non existence by your very own description.