Free Will & The Christian - Get Out.

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#61
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To that I only know the atheists' answer:  The writer of Genesis, not God, gave Adam and Eve free will so they could be disobedient..  

That makes no sense at all . The idea of these religious scribes, writing about their  god of wrath and war, his laws,  his jealous personality and his commandments didn't write - ' and god made adam and eve and gave them free will to do as they pleased including being disobedient and disloyalty  to their father and creator '. The idea was to keep the ignorant masses in check, and not let them run amok doing what the hell they liked.


It appears  we weren't specifcally miners or farmers in the enuma elish - just general labourers.
tablet 6 line 7   I will create Lullû—man
8   On whom the toil of the gods will be laid that they may rest.

Well when one considers that   " to till the land" this would include digging and when one is mining that would be digging - you can see the point can't you.


It is said that the lower ranking flesh and blood "gods" of Mesopotamia had been mining for all kinds of ore - gold in particular - for hundreds of years and by all accounts had mutinied saying words to the effect that -  they were not meant to do this kind of work, and telling the head god to stick it up his arse and get something else to " till the land".  And  I find this most  interesting because I have always questioned why it was that gold and other precious stones Onyx is mentioned so early in the bible. Genesis 2:11 KJV.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
 Why is it even there at this point? , why even mention it at all? It doesn't fit into the narrative on the face of it.

I mean, what possible use could gold and semiprecious stones be to this brand new, sparkling right out the wrapper pair of humans? One would think that these two brand new people had better things and more important things to consider and think about,  wouldn't you?  Like where's my next meal coming from? And where am I going to live and how am I going to keep warm at night, now "evolution" has stripped me of all my fkn fur so now I have to go and kill another animal for its coat!??? and that makes absolutely no sense of the evolution theory does it?

Maybe our resident expert in all things  Evolutionary can explain that sticky point for us. I do hope he starts a  thread on his specialist subject. I can't wait to show the nob what a complete and utter braindead bellend he really is.

Maybe there is more to the Mesopotamian epic than some people realise. Or care to admit?
#62
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@Stephen
Maybe there is more to the Mesopotamian epic than some people realise. Or care to admit?
there was a good radio 4 'in our time' about the epic of gilgamesh a while back..
The idea of these religious scribes, writing about their  god of wrath and war, his laws,  his jealous personality and his commandments didn't write - ' and god made adam and eve and gave them free will to do as they pleased including being disobedient and disloyalty  to their father and creator '. The idea was to keep the ignorant masses in check, and not let them run amok doing what the hell they liked.

I don't think the ancient hebrew scribes were sophisticated enough to consider 'free will' to be something people had.  People make free choices (or seem to) so they wouldn't imagine A+E to be any different in that regard.  I don't really see the issue.  I think they simply couldn't imagine an animate but unthinking automaton.   They weren't Athenians!

The 'powers that be' would indeed want people to do what they were told, but given that they will inevitably occasionally not obey the dire consequences of disobedience had to be impressed on the plebs.  It also eplained why there were occasionl disasters - they were punishments for disobedience.  That idea runs through the historial books.




#63
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@TheRealNihilist
There is a flesh and a spirit to Christianity. The flesh is what you see on the outside, the stories, the symbology, the scriptures, the holy tradition, the liturgies, icons, etc. To be aquainted with this is part of the catechisis of the faith. The spirit is the Mystagogy or hidden meaning behind all these things.


What can I tell you to help you? The Church worships The Truth as God, and so our faith is Truth Worship. If the catechisis is a stumbling block for you, you will not see the mystagogy behind it.

As it is written

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

And so to be initiated into the faith, one requires humility and charity. The humility to not know, and the charity to believe until that knowledge comes. A true knowledge, not merely gnosis, but epignosis. True experiential knowledge.






#64
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There is a flesh and a spirit to Christianity. The flesh is what you see on the outside, the stories, the symbology, the scriptures, the holy tradition, the liturgies, icons, etc. To be aquainted with this is part of the catechisis of the faith. The spirit is the Mystagogy or hidden meaning behind all these things.
Not evidence. Do you have any? Preferably a link claims that you haven't supported with evidence.
What can I tell you to help you? The Church worships The Truth as God, and so our faith is Truth Worship. If the catechisis is a stumbling block for you, you will not see the mystagogy behind it.

As it is written

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

And so to be initiated into the faith, one requires humility and charity. The humility to not know, and the charity to believe until that knowledge comes. A true knowledge, not merely gnosis, but epignosis. True experiential knowledge.
So faith is your evidence? I don't consider it evidence. 
#65
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@TheRealNihilist
You don't even know what you want proof of.

And that is the point.

In fact, if you knew, you wouldn't be asking for proof.




#66
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@TheRealNihilist

Christianity in essence is apodictic truth.


That being the case, in order for it to be proven, it must be understood.


The Orthodox Church is The Church. We know the God we worship.
#67
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@Mopac
If God didn't exist, it wouldn't be possible for you to exist.
Unsupportable claim. Come back when you actually have something.


#68
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@disgusted
If there is no Ultimste Reality, there is no reality. This is not an extraordinary claim, it is apodictic truth.
#69
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@Mopac
Just another unsupportable claim given your definition of ultimate reality.
#70
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality is not a conception, nor is it circumvented by defining. It is being transcendent of beings. 


You do not know what you are talking about.




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@Mopac
That drivel goes nowhere near supporting your unsupportable claims, I know you are doing the best you can but it is woefully inadequate. You claim that the ultimate reality is your god but we know that gods are the invention of man, your claim makes no sense and that's one reason you can't support it.
#72
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@Mopac
You don't even know what you want proof of.
Yes I do. You haven't even given an explanation for why you said this so all I got to add is my opinion which is more important than yours in this context.
In fact, if you knew, you wouldn't be asking for proof.
I don't know but I do know false information represented as proof. Do you have actual proof? Lets just go with observable evidence.
Christianity in essence is apodictic truth.
You are making these claims without supporting it with anything. It can be dismissed as such.
That being the case, in order for it to be proven, it must be understood.
I find it difficult to believe that I would find trouble understanding proof. I think you are just trying to lower my standards to consider the Bible truth. I am not doing that because it very easy to achieve. Basically have observable evidence.
The Orthodox Church is The Church. We know the God we worship.
Doesn't help your side or give me something to say about so I will dismiss as well. 
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#73
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@disgusted

That drivel goes nowhere near supporting your unsupportable claims, I know you are doing the best you can but it is woefully inadequate. You claim that the ultimate reality is your god but we know that gods are the invention of man, your claim makes no sense and that's one reason you can't support it.

And neither can you support this claim of yours below. Funny how you demand "evidence",  "proof" and "citations" from  ( Mopac)  be never ever support your own wild claims and start crying and throwing your sand out of the pit when challenged to do so. So where's your proof and evidence for your ridiculous claim that you have made, below. HURRY UP!!  I haven't got all day.


Do you realise that we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet? 


#74
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@TheRealNihilist
Christianity in essence is apodictic truth.
You are making these claims without supporting it with anything. It can be dismissed as such.

In other words, you have no idea what I am talking about.


And you won't, because you think you know something when you are really in the dark.


Being that Christianity is both in essence apodictic truth, and a mystery religion, you can not be expected to understand it. Being that you think you know, you won't. 


#75
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In other words, you have no idea what I am talking about.
No you don't understand that your words have very little to stand on if you don't have evidence. Saying that you have a claim without evidence or explanation is not a substantiated point. In order for me to understand how you got to that claim I need to be explained through the process or given evidence that supports your claim. You haven't done either. 
And you won't, because you think you know something when you are really in the dark.
Again another claim not supported by an explanation or evidence. Can you improve on this?
Being that Christianity is both in essence apodictic truth, and a mystery religion, you can not be expected to understand it. Being that you think you know, you won't. 
It is not self-evidence that God exists and for you to say that is a lie. Come back to me when you have something substantial to provide to this conversation.
I am dismissing "mystery religion" because I don't think it would matter to the context of this conversation.
I don't think I know. I see what someone else says and say this can't be the case. They can't provide a good enough counter. I win. 

#76
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@TheRealNihilist

The Ultimate Reality is God.


That is our God. That is what God means. 


If you say this God doesn't exist, you have adopted a foolish and self defeating position.

Now understand that if you don't believe that this is the case, that The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is what is meant by God, you are simply striving over the meanings of words, and you have no hope of understanding Christianity.

I don't need you prove anything to you. If you dismiss something before understanding it, you have shut yourself off. I have little to do with this. You ask for proofs of things you don't understand. Being thst Christianity is apodictic in nature, the proof is in understanding what is being said.

It is not fitting for a creature of God to make demands from The Uncreated Creator of all creation. Truly, God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud. The Mystagogy will be hidden from the proud, as even the image of God within them has been made obscure through the defilement of their own nous.



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#77
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@Mopac
Stop hijacking my thread about Free Will with your complete BOLLOCKS. It is so fkn rude of you. start your own thread about your ultimate reality FFS!
#78
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@Mopac
The Ultimate Reality is God.
So God is reality?
That is the God we know.
I don't know because you haven't explained it to me.
If you say this God doesn't exist, youhave adopted a foolish and self defeating position.
Another point made without explaining it.
Now understand thst if you don't believe that this is the case, that The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is what is meant by God, you are simply striving over the meanings of words, and you have no hope of understanding Christianity.
And that you are not explaining your position. I argue that is more important.
I don't need yo prove anything to you. If you dismiss something before understanding it, you have shut yourself off. I have little to do with this.
I didn't dismiss anything. I simply want reasons for what you believe in instead of simply believing it because you said so. 
#79
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@TheRealNihilist
God is The Ultimate Reality.
#80
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@Mopac
God is The Ultimate Reality.
Evidence?
#81
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@Stephen
Orthodoxy believes in the doctrine of synergy. We are co-workers with God, or we resist God and his grace. We have thst choice. Either way, God is sovereign over all things, and knows all things. God did not dictate the choices we make, even though God, being outside time and preeternal can see clearly all that happens in time.

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@TheRealNihilist
The evidence is accepting what we mean by what we say.

But if my word isn't enough, a source we should have in common is the merriam-webster webster dictionary which clearly defines God with a capital "G" as "The supreme or ultimate reality"


Oxford uses the term "Supreme being"

If you understand these terms correctly, they mean the same thing.


If this isn't sufficient for you, I suggest you look more into what apodictic truth means.


#83
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@Mopac
The evidence is accepting what we mean by what we say.
Okay then a leap of faith. How about accepting that if you jump off the cliff you won't die? Would you accept that without evidence? 
But if my word isn't enough, a source we should have in common is the merriam-webster webster dictionary which clearly defines God with a capital "G" as "The supreme or ultimate reality"
A definition gives meaning to a word. Doesn't mean that word exists. It is like saying unicorn exists because there is a meaning behind the word.
Oxford uses the term "Supreme being"

If you understand these terms correctly, they mean the same thing.


If this isn't sufficient for you, I suggest you look more into what apodictic truth means.
Self-evidence is not evidence. I want to know how God is self-evident.
#84
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@TheRealNihilist
The Ultimate Reality exists.


If you say otherwise, you are a fool.

#85
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@Mopac
The Ultimate Reality exists.


If you say otherwise, you are a fool.
This is not helping your case. Reality can exist without God so you need to show how God is required for reality. 
#86
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@TheRealNihilist
I don't need to prove your straw man god.
#87
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@Mopac
I don't need to prove your straw man god.
How is it a straw-man? I am simply saying God cannot exist while there still being reality. Do you have response? 

#88
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@TheRealNihilist
It would be vain to point out your folly, as you are simply looking to dispute with me.


If you accepted that The Ultimate Reality is what is meant by the word "God", you would have no need for your questions.

#89
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@Mopac
It would be vain to point out your folly, as you are simply looking to dispute with me.
If you were right. I would have no ground to stand on and your failure to substantiate your point is a testament to your inability to provide a good argument for God. 

#90
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@TheRealNihilist
You are in the dark.