"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate

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TheDredPriateRoberts
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@disgusted
If I can choose what to do with my body/labor, without the force and threat of people with guns forcing me to do preform with my body/labor than any religious objection is moot as it's my body/labor choice so I don't have to give a reason., which is exactly what I said previously, perhaps a 2nd reading will help you understand better?
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@Snoopy
there are a lot of practical reasons to not have sex outside of marriage if one were to look at it objectively so I don't find in this context the label of immoral as an emotional reason or arbitrary one as some seem to think, just adding my 2 cents.
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If I can choose what to do with my body/labor, without the force and threat of people with guns forcing me to do preform with my body/labor than any religious objection is moot as it's my body/labor choice so I don't have to give a reason., which is exactly what I said previously, perhaps a 2nd reading will help you understand better?
So, for you, any laws protecting people from discrimination are contrary to your worldview?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
I was asking questions, hence the use of this symbol  ?

I'll try to rephrase,  Should someone be forced to use they physical energy, labor, their body to do something, anything for someone else if they don't want to?
If yes, are you ok with forcing someone to do the above by sending people with guns to force them to do so?
Obviously this does not apply to employees because employers can compel action or terminate the employment.

as a side not, yes I agreed and supported the cake shop's position.
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
as a side not, yes I agreed and supported the cake shop's position.
The cake shop ruling was a separate issue because, since "designing and decorating" a cake is considered a "creative expression" then it cannot be "compelled".  "Creative expression" in this case was considered "protected free-speech".

The cake shop apparently had no problem selling the gay couple an "off-the-shelf" pre-made cake. 

They only refused to custom design one specifically for them.

The current expansion of "Religious Freedom" bills aim to cover things like "refusing to prepare a room for surgery" for a gay or transgendered person, or refusing to fix someone's sink, or refusing to sell them food at a restaurant.  And like the hobby shop chain that wanted to offer a healthcare plan that excludes coverage for abortion (and presumably other medical procedures they disagree with).

If you want to claim a "religious objection" to something, it seems you should be able to point out a specific mandatory rule from your chosen holy text.

My position has always been, "If you want to pick and choose your customers, open a private club".

There is a distinct difference between a business that is open to the public and a private club.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
ok I better understand the issue I think, however I also believe there is a difference and a distinction should be made between being an employer vs a business owner or self contractor.  And as such I don't believe anyone has the right to make them do anything they don't wish to, whether it's for a specific reason or no reason at all.  Forced labor under threat, whether it's paid for or not is still wrong imo.

their decisions should be respected, this does not mean there won't be consequences, people can ask to boycott the business, protest legally and what ever other legal means are available.  This is a more civilized and appropriate approach than threat of violence to force labor.  Don't you think?

3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Forced labor under threat, whether it's paid for or not is still wrong imo.
Well nearly every job is "compelled" either by incentives or threats or both.  I mean, unless it's truly voluntary like under some sort of Universal Basic Income.

their decisions should be respected, this does not mean there won't be consequences, people can ask to boycott the business, protest legally and what ever other legal means are available.  This is a more civilized and appropriate approach than threat of violence to force labor.  Don't you think?
I kinda see what you mean with the boycotts and or protests...

Although, it seems like that would just take us back to what we had before the Civil Rights Act.

Are you suggesting we should repeal the Civil Rights Act?  ...And the Americans with Disabilities Act?
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
Well nearly every job is "compelled" either by incentives or threats or both. 
except by taking the job you've agreed to their terms and conditions,  if you work for yourself you make your own terms and conditions.  that's a large difference to me.

Are you suggesting we should repeal the Civil Rights Act?  ...And the Americans with Disabilities Act?
I don't think they are needed any longer and this would make the people who would discriminate against those groups more obvious and known, which I don't think is a bad thing.  I'd prefer to know what kind of person I'm dealing with instead of someone who is hiding because of the law.
Would you want someone preparing you food who would ordinarily discriminate against you, but because of the law they can't?  I'd want to know upfront so I can find an alternative place who I could trust, who does want my business and then i could inform others.


3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'd want to know upfront so I can find an alternative place who I could trust, who does want my business and then i could inform others.
Ah, like "Green Book" [LINK].

I think the world would be a much more dangerous place if Christians only patronized Christian businesses and Muslims only patronized Muslim businesses and Atheists only patronized Atheist businesses, And Women, and Disabled people, and etcetera.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
that is not what I am saying at all, I differentiated between employees who agree to the terms and conditions against a sole proprietor.  How many racists do you see?  Sure there are some but not many at all.  Their affects and numbers are greatly exaggerated by the media.  I'd prefer they be out in the open than hiding.  But I guess ignorance is bliss to many.
wouldn't you like to know if the person who is preparing your food is racists against you or would you just hope they don't do something to it?
Knowledge is power.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'd prefer they be out in the open than hiding.
A polite and civil society =/= a brutally honest, tell-it-like-it-is, keepin' it real society.

Dismantling protections for minority groups because of apparently low hate would be like dismantling laws against murder because of a low murder rate.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
so then it comes back to do you force the individual who has not agreed or bound to specific behavior and standards to an employer, do you force the sole proprietor to perform under threat of force? 
to what end? 
how can you justify such actions?
what other compelled actions should we force at gun point?
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
so then it comes back to do you force the individual who has not agreed or bound to specific behavior and standards to an employer, do you force the sole proprietor to perform under threat of force?  
All laws "compel action" by threat of force.  If a sole proprietor doesn't want to "serve the public" they should open a private club.

to what end?  
Equality of opportunity.

how can you justify such actions?
In the exact same way we justify all laws.

what other compelled actions should we force at gun point?
Actions that support individual equality and the function of a peaceful society should be enforced by law.
secularmerlin
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'd prefer to know what kind of person I'm dealing with instead of someone who is hiding because of the law.
Would you want someone preparing you food who would ordinarily discriminate against you, but because of the law they can't?  I'd want to know upfront so I can find an alternative place who I could trust, who does want my business and then i could inform others.
I mean no insult when I say that this is a very privileged position that minorities may not be able to afford to adopt.

In a marketplace dictated entirely by profit if the bottom line is unaffected by prejudice it is rarely corrected. The majority of people are not disabled for example and as a result before the civil liberties act protected the disabled few businesses went to the extra expense of wheel chair ramps as the cost versus gain did not seem to justify having them. A standard was necessary in order for the disabled to merely enjoy normal services others might take for granted. In a majority christian setting a homosexual could hypothetically be refused the bulk of ordinary services and the businesses that would cater to them might abuse them in other ways (such as price gouging or offering inferior goods) since they have no alternative. We know this is possible specifically because of the conditions in America that led to the civil rights movement in the first place. 


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@Alec
If a gay person doesn't receive service, they can go to another store to get the service they want. 
Should this apply to Christians, too? Can I refuse service to Christians? Would a Christian make a massive ordeal out of not being served because they are a Christian? Yes, they would freak out and all hell would break loose.

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@RoderickSpode
We need protection for religious freedom.
And, we should have protection from religion, as well. That's only fair.

3RU7AL
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@secularmerlin
In a majority christian setting a homosexual could hypothetically be refused the bulk of ordinary services and the businesses that would cater to them might abuse them in other ways (such as price gouging or offering inferior goods) since they have no alternative. We know this is possible specifically because of the conditions in America that led to the civil rights movement in the first place. 
Bingo.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
All laws "compel action" by threat of force.
do they?  trying to think of what other laws actually forces you do something physically with your body, can't think of anything atm  What law forces you to work or perform work against your will?  Drawing a blank, help me out there.

If a sole proprietor doesn't want to "serve the public" they should open a private club.
isn't that his private business/property if he is the owner?
if it is he can invite people or not onto his property anytime he chooses can't he?
do we have rights over our own property?

to what end?  

Actions that support individual equality and the function of a peaceful society should be enforced by law. 
how about blood donations, there's always a shortage, that saves lives shouldn't that be mandatory over hurt feelings or inconvenience?
looking for some lines here.

just to be clear you seem to be fine with forcing people to work at gun point because discrimination is the greater of 2 evils.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@secularmerlin
it's easier to change minds and show the err of their ways if they aren't in the shadows.  they whole adage of casting light on shadows, something like that.
what you are saying has expanded what I'm actually talking about which is forcing a private individual to perform a physical task at gun point.  Specifically nothing that is actually needed like medical attention because I KNOW someone will use that.  Things like the wedding cake issue.

Price gouging and inferior goods is a different subject.

there is no real logical reason to discriminate imo but if you are going to explain and or show people why it's not logical you need to first find out what and why they think as they do, beating someone with a stick, threat whatever just doesn't work.

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If there is an answer to the problem of tribalism that would not do away with the benefits of tribalism I am unaware if it.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@secularmerlin
yeah I dunno, I'm talking about individuals.....so we aren't in reality talking about a large number of people really.
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In 2019, the likelihood that LGBT couple is going to have trouble finding somebody to make their wedding cake or take their wedding photos is slim to none. This was primarily meant to dissuade the kinds of @$$holes who decided to pick on the owners of Masterpiece Cakeshop to force them out of business on account of the owner's religious beliefs that they didn't like.
That is to say, the Left has already demonstrated bad faith on the issue, so this could legitimately be intended to protect religious liberties in the post-2015 landscape.
3RU7AL
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@Swagnarok
This was primarily meant to dissuade the kinds of @$$#$% who decided to pick on the owners of Masterpiece Cakeshop to force them out of business on account of the owner's religious beliefs that they didn't like.
Your statement is opinion stated as fact.

There are a great number of Christian businesses that DON'T get "picked on" and the number one reason is because they don't discriminate. [LINK]
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@Swagnarok
This was primarily meant to dissuade the kinds of @$$holes who decided to pick on the owners of Masterpiece Cakeshop to force them out of business on account of the owner's religious beliefs that they didn't like.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here: it's okay for the religious people to decide not to provide services based on their religion...okay, but then is it NOT okay for the people who discover this information to make sure it's published loudly as a spot that discriminates? It kind of sounds like you are saying they should be protected from the fallout of their discrimination by the government somehow. Like it's okay for them to discriminate against the LGTBQ community because that's what their religion says, but it's somehow got to be protected from the LGTBQ community's ability to organize and publicize that said business discriminated against them? Doesn't that violate several constitutional rights (first amendment, right to organize and protest, etc)? I think I must be missing something. 
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@ludofl3x
I think there is a big difference between spreading bad publicity and using the force of the law.

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@ludofl3x

The owner of Masterpiece was persecuted by the people working for the state of Colorado.
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@Snoopy
Persecuted or prosecuted? Two different things. 

If he is accepting publically available tax breaks in exchange for having a business open to the public, then he must abide by the laws of the land, as far as I can see it, that means no discrimination. If he wants to run his business without any sort of governmental assistance, I guess he could find a way to do that and then he can discriminate all he wants. But that's not my point:

What if he were forced to put up a sign in his window that said "NO BLACKS, CURSE OF HAM" in his window? Or a sign that says "NO GAYS", would it then be okay for a mass of people to protest in front of his store every single day? 
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
All laws "compel action" by threat of force.
do they?  trying to think of what other laws actually forces you do something physically with your body, can't think of anything atm  What law forces you to work or perform work against your will?  Drawing a blank, help me out there.
Are you compelled to register your vehicle and qualify for a drivers license under threat of force?

Are you compelled to pay your taxes under threat of force?

Are you compelled to pay rent under threat of force?

Are you compelled to drive on streets and designated areas and not on the sidewalk under threat of force?

Are you compelled to earn money in order to pay for all of these unavoidable fees and expenses that are compelled by force?

If a sole proprietor doesn't want to "serve the public" they should open a private club.
isn't that his private business/property if he is the owner?
Any business that is open to the public must serve the public.

if it is he can invite people or not onto his property anytime he chooses can't he?
An "invitation only" business would be a private club.

do we have rights over our own property?
We have certain rights to private property, but if you are a business that is open to the public, the public also has certain rights.

to what end?  
To support individual equality and the function of a peaceful society.

Actions that support individual equality and the function of a peaceful society should be enforced by law. 
how about blood donations, there's always a shortage, that saves lives shouldn't that be mandatory over hurt feelings or inconvenience?
looking for some lines here.
Blood is a commodity. [LINK]

I agree that an individual should be considered sovereign.  But that does not mean an individual can "do whatever they want" even if they call it "a religion".  Polygamy for example is clearly endorsed in "The Bible", however it doesn't seem to be protected under "Religious Freedom".

just to be clear you seem to be fine with forcing people to work at gun point because discrimination is the greater of 2 evils.
It's pretty simple, if you are open to the public, then you must serve the public.  If you want to hand-pick your customers, open a private club.
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@ludofl3x
He was persecuted. A panel or whatever were apparently disgusted by him or his faith and prosecuted unjustly.