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@YeshuaRedeemed
Divorce is also a sin. How do you object to a gay wedding but not to a divorcee wedding?...it's not hate to disagree with something the Bible calls a sin.
"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate
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@Snoopy
Out of curiosity, why is cash of significance to you?
Because we're talking about business.
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@3RU7AL
How do you object to a gay wedding but not to a divorcee wedding?
can atheist object to gay weddings or are they somehow prohibited from doing so?
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@3RU7AL
I am frequently objecting to divorce. Next question, please. I would rather die alone than ever go through a divorce.
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@YeshuaRedeemed
I disagree. Would you say the same if Muslims are in charge, or is your issue with Christians?
I believe we should treat "objections of conscience" equally, regardless of their religious origins.
If the Quran specifically says, "don't do business with a homo", then that would be a valid religious objection.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
How do you object to a gay wedding but not to a divorcee wedding?can atheist object to gay weddings or are they somehow prohibited from doing so?
Anyone (individual or private club) can object to anything for any reason.
hOWeVer, if you claim your objection is based on your religion, you need to present the specific text.
Good luck finding an "Atheistic Holy Text" that prohibits doing business with the gays.
I noticed a sign on the door of a business recently that stated "No Motorcycle Clubs". Since "Motorcycle Club" is not a protected class, this would seem perfectly reasonable.
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@3RU7AL
I deeply respect you for that. Thank you. I hope you realize that i don't hate anyone. Jesus said "thou shalt love they neighbor, and you love thyself". Gays are my neighbor, even if the Bible says such and such.
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@YeshuaRedeemed
Let's not conflate personal and professional standards here.I am frequently objecting to divorce. Next question, please. I would rather die alone than ever go through a divorce.
Do you refuse to do business with divorcees?
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@3RU7AL
I am not a business owner.
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@3RU7AL
ok so only those with a religious objection can object and they must prove it or be forced to use their body/labor to preform a special and or unique act/creation or face the possibility that men with guns will come and put them in a cage.
when you ask for something you are asking to enter into a contract with that person. why shouldn't someone be allowed to decline the offer to enter into a contract with another? Why does a rejected offer require a reason or explanation?
do you think religious texts and teachings are objective or subjective?
Is there only one interpretation of these texts?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The following is a conditional statement.
(IFF) you claim your objection is based on your religion (THEN) you need to present the specific text.
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@3RU7AL
Text is useful as a common basis, a testament or a proof, or a check on reason. The Bible is not an instruction manual.
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@Snoopy
Text is useful as a common basis, a testament or a proof, or a check on reason. The Bible is not an instruction manual.
Is your argument that people should be able to claim religious objections that are made up on the spot? If not how should we determine if a religious objection is legitimate without a specific corresponding religious text?
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@secularmerlin
Text is useful as a common basis, a testament or a proof, or a check on reason. The Bible is not an instruction manual.Is your argument that people should be able to claim religious objections that are made up on the spot? If not how should we determine if a religious objection is legitimate without a specific corresponding religious text?
If "we" is the government, then we don't.
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@Snoopy
Is your argument that people should be able to claim religious objections that are made up on the spot? If not and there is no way to separate legitimate religious objections from false/made up ones then how do you suggest we determine which objections should be protected?
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@secularmerlin
Is your argument that people should be able to claim religious objections that are made up on the spot?
I don't think so.
If not and there is no way to separate legitimate religious objections from false/made up ones then how do you suggest we determine which objections should be protected?
Generally, all objections are protected insofar as a practical accommodation can be arranged.
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@Snoopy
In the case of refusing services to individuals service do you feel that some practical accommodation can be made which protects both the one refusing services and the one seeking them? Are (possibly made up) religious objections more important than other classes of protection offered by the civil liberties act? If so on what grounds?
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@3RU7AL
I imagine a business with a "No blacks served" policy would have a hard enough time staying open. Without even law getting in the way. That would cause a ruckus.
But I do believe that business owners should have the right to do these things, even if they are morally questionable decisions.
I don't believe the government should tell churches they need to have homosexual clergymen, ordane women into the priesthood, or force them to marry homosexuals, things like that.
And believe it or not, this is the kind of stuff that goes through city hall where I live.
The government itself should remain as non-descriminatory as possible I say, and I even mean that to the extent of getting rid of certain demographic relsted questions. If the government doesn't discriminate based on race, it doesn't need to ask about it. If the government doesn't discriminate based on sex, it doesn't need to ask about it.
But thats all just like my opinion, and I really try to stay out of politics.
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@3RU7AL
The following is a conditional statement.(IFF) you claim your objection is based on your religion (THEN) you need to present the specific text.
whether they choose to give a reason or not it's their choice they have the right and freedom to choose not to labor in the context I have already laid down. Their body their choice.
there doesn't have to be a specific text, it's their interpretation of it, hence belief and freedom of religion.
does the muslim religion have specific texts, I honestly don't know but I assume they do since they toss gays off of buildings etc they must, which I gather you'd give them a pass but not other religions unless they can present the specific text.
I think there's plenty of precedence of how some religions feel about gays. Can get receive communion, be priests, nuns or hold certain positions in some churches? Are there still some who will not perform a religious gay wedding? I believe these are still the cases so the objection seems consistent for those who do object.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
does the muslim religion have specific texts, I honestly don't know but I assume they do since they toss gays off of buildings etc they must, which I gather you'd give them a pass
What specifically about 3RU7AL 's claims lead you to believe he supports any form of violence ?
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@secularmerlin
how else can you force someone to do something they don't want to?
I believe he feels people should be forced to comply, I've asked him repeatedly about that.
what happens if you don't do what the government says? they send people with guns and put you in a cage to make you comply. I don't think that is an appropriate solution to someone who won't use their time and energy to do something special for someone. My position is people are sovereign and they shouldn't be forced under threat of law aka people with guns to make them use their time, energy etc to do something they don't want.
I've stated this does not apply to employees, life saving services and the original definition of what human needs actually are, not wants. They wanted a cake, they didn't need one for example.
on a personal note I disagreed with the cake shop owner, however I believe his rights needed to be defended for all the reasons I have given. Much like the 1a speech you agree with doesn't need defending, the 1a is for the speech you don't agree with.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The issue is not forcing someone to do something that they would under normal circumstances refuse to do it is in insuring equality which sadly often requires legal action. A baker makes cakes. To refuse this service is not in and of itself a problem. Refusing this service based on someone's minority status is.
Do you feel that it is acceptable to refuse services to Asians? Women? Jews? Based on their color? sex? religion?
As 3RU7AL has stated repeatedly the issue is not refusing service it is claiming protection from legal recourse when guilty of discrimination under the very laws that are meant to prevent discrimination.
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@secularmerlin
we aren't talking about race or sex, but rather a religious exception.
The issue is not forcing someone to do something that they would under normal circumstances refuse to do it is in insuring equality which sadly often requires legal action.
how do you insure equality? threat of force ;)
if they would not normally make a gay wedding cake then that doesn't apply to what you have said I don't think
should a muslim baker be forced to make a jewish cake?
how about a muslim cook, should he be forced to make pork dishes?
you see we can refuse services for a variety of reasons that are or don't have to have a religious objection
if I'm a baker can I refuse to make a religious cake?
I wouldn't make a cake celebrating a dictator or mass murderer etc and I shouldn't have to or be forced to under threat of law.
if we want equality we need to apply this standard equally right?
let's not conflate the issue and call it services because I am talking about specific and a narrow position for which I think they have a right to say no.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
A cake covered in frosted lingams
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@secularmerlin
It may not be a religious exception we are talking about if we are simply restraining the ignorant savages from abusing power in government. There are no concrete examples of a religious exemption demonstrated in this thread to my knowledge.
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@3RU7AL
Since "Motorcycle Club" is not a protected class, this would seem perfectly reasonable.
Poorly stated. Someone who belongs to a motorcycle club of a member is a member of the protected class, American, and it is still not legal to discriminate on the basis if their race.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Let me ask you a question. If we all have the right to refuse service as you suggest then why do we need these "religious freedom" bills that by the way resemble the him Crow laws from the sixties.
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@Snoopy
this has is going out into left field and I think we need to bring it back to a focus. The issue as I see it and in the context of what I have already stated is the objection is to the act not the person. The whole hate the sin love the sinner, something like that anyway. To have an objection to an act that you have a moral problem with is fine and should be protected imo. The cake issue specifically, he had a problem with a cake that celebrated or was for a celebration of a gay wedding, an act/event. it's kind of like objecting to the message not the messenger, not sure how else to explain it.
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@secularmerlin
we posted at the same time lol
so I've kind of narrowed down exactly what I'm talking about since this is getting blown out of proportion. I hope that clears it up a bit if not lmk.
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@Snoopy
Ignorant savages? That sounds dehumanizing. It is the guided process of dehumanization that I am worried abput. It doesn't matter if that comes on the guise of racism or homophobia or religious/cultural purity.
I have been fairly clear about my fears if these laws take effect (that some classes of people will be legally denied the services that should be taken for granted.
What specifically are you afraid will happen if these laws do not get passed?