free will

Author: keithprosser

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#541
3RU7AL
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@TwoMan
So would agree, according to your definitions, that sophisticated computerized neural networks with the ability to learn and optimize tasks, also have proper freewill (the ability to choose)?
That is not my definition, it is from Wikipedia. I would say that those computers have what is similar to the ability to choose (freewill). To the casual observer it may be indistinguishable. However, computers do not utilize the same variables that humans do when making choices so it is not identical.
Not being identical should not necessarily be the litmus test for freewill.

No two human's decision making hardware (brain) or software (experience) are strictly identical.
#542
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@3RU7AL
Not being identical should not necessarily be the litmus test for freewill.

No two human's decision making hardware (brain) or software (experience) are strictly identical.
Agreed. I don't have a litmus test for freewill. I am simply asserting that it exists.
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#543
keithprosser
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@3RU7AL
But my desires are MY desires!  I do not exercise free will by sorting letters according to zip code... That is being a mindless robot.   Whatever it's source, my desire to join the circus is my will, not my boss's!   I'm OK with not being able to choose what it is I desire because that is as good as it gets.   At least I have desires - not all objects or entities are so lucky!
#544
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When the robots take over(have they already?), they will still keep people around. We'll make good random number generators.

#545
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@TwoMan
Agreed. I don't have a litmus test for freewill. I am simply asserting that it exists.
Ask yourself, would I accept this as a valid argument for any proposition besides freewill?

Careful how you answer because I can assert that a lot of wildly contradictory mutually exclusive things exist.

#546
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@keithprosser
That is being a mindless robot. 
Where exactly is the line between a sophisticated simulation of consciousness and actual consciousness and how do you go about quantifying this quality in another entity (say a mail sortung robot that attempts to join the circus)?

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#547
keithprosser
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Do you think that your brain implements consciousness or does it implement a sophisticated simulation of consciousness?
#548
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@keithprosser
Do you think that your brain implements consciousness or does it implement a sophisticated simulation of consciousness?
I just asked you how to tell the difference. Now you are ssking me to make the distinction before you have supplied the criteria.

Tell me if I am nothing more than a simulation of consciousness how do YOU tell and how does my saying "I am a genuine consciousness and not a simulation, you can trust me." help you to make the distinction?

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#549
keithprosser
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I am not asking you to make or define a distinction.  I asked if you think you (or is it your brain) implements consciousness or implements s simulation of consciousness.   In chalmer's terms, do you think you are a p-zombie?

#550
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@keithprosser
I am uncertain how to tell the difference between being concious and experiencing a sensation that I am merely convinced is consciousness.

I will go so far as to say that I believe myself to be concious if anything is.
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#551
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@secularmerlin
I think there are conscious things because we naturally classify things as conscious and unconscious.   A rock is not conscious, a human being is.   I don't put tat forward as proven or true but as a 'point of departure' for investigating what consciousness is.   We can drop andamend our ideas a we proceed.  Do you think it is unreasonable to suppose rocks are not conscious?
#552
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@keithprosser
Rocks show no sign of the possibly illusory phenomena known as consciousness. So either it isnot am attribute they possess or they are keeping it to themselves.

#553
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@secularmerlin
Agreed. I don't have a litmus test for freewill. I am simply asserting that it exists.
Ask yourself, would I accept this as a valid argument for any proposition besides freewill?

Careful how you answer because I can assert that a lot of wildly contradictory mutually exclusive things exist.
That wasn't intended as an argument for anything. It is only a statement of my position on the subject.
#554
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@TwoMan
Fair enough
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#555
keithprosser
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Rocks show no sign of being conscious, have no mechanism to implement consciousness and have no reason to be conscious.   I'd bet money they aren't conscious!
#556
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@keithprosser
I am unsure consciousness evem exists and even if it does I am reluctant to attribute anything that cannot communicate abstract concepts.
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#557
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I am less reluctant because I can always change my mind if it turns out I'm wrong!
#558
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@keithprosser
How lucky for you. I cannot simply change my mind only sufficient evidence can change it and I am not in control of what evidence I am presented with.
#559
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@secularmerlin
Is it possible, not to be aware of your uncertainty?
#560
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@zedvictor4
I would not think so since uncertainty is experiential.
#561
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@keithprosser
Rocks show no sign of being conscious, have no mechanism to implement consciousness and have no reason to be conscious.   I'd bet money they aren't conscious!
But do rocks have souls??????
#562
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@keithprosser
I'm OK with not being able to choose what it is I desire because that is as good as it gets.
Then you are comfortable being a slave to your inscrutable desires.

If this is the case, why would you insist on clinging to the magic fairy dust of "freewill"?
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#563
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@secularmerlin
My attitude to 'knowing stuff' is that I think everything is provisional, and while one cannot know -for example - the BB was the origin of the universe, it is a good bet that the origin of the universe resembles the BB more than it resembles an eternal steady-state universe or a divinely created one.   Were I obsessed with rigour then I'd have no choice bit to sit on the fence.  I could fib and say i am open-minded, but i'm not.  The origin of the universe was big bang like.   i am aware of alternative theories, but i judge the BB to be the closest to the truth.  I am ar more interested in thinking about the consequences of that than questioning it.

I will worry about new evidence for the steady state or divine creation if and when it arises- i've already evualated the evidence i am aware of, and rejected it.   i don't see the point in re-evaluating the same anti-bb arguments over and over.  





#564
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@keithprosser
I am not disputing the big bang. I am pointing out that until we understand the mechanics thay governed the occurrence we have not answered the question why/how does the universe exist we have merely pushed the question back a step. The big bang is legitimate scientific theory.
#565
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@TwoMan
Agreed. I don't have a litmus test for freewill. I am simply asserting that it exists.
But why?

What necessary function does freewill perform in your worldview?

And if it doesn't serve any (identifiable) critical function, why bother clinging to it?
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#566
keithprosser
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@3RU7AL
Then you are comfortable being a slave to your inscrutable desires.
i am certainly more comforable than as a slave to anyone else's desires!   I could be an entity with no desires - a lowly amoeba or a leaf blowing in the wind.   After 13.8 billion years the universe produced and entity with the set of wishes, desires dreams and aspirations that consistute me.   my inscrutale desires are not things sepaerate from me - they are me and define me.

#567
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@keithprosser
Then you are comfortable being a slave to your inscrutable desires.
i am certainly more comforable than as a slave to anyone else's desires!   I could be an entity with no desires - a lowly amoeba or a leaf blowing in the wind.   After 13.8 billion years the universe produced and entity with the set of wishes, desires dreams and aspirations that consistute me.   my inscrutale desires are not things sepaerate from me - they are me and define me. 
If this is the case, why would you insist on clinging to the magic fairy dust of "freewill"?
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#568
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@3RU7AL
What necessary function does freewill perform in your worldview?
And if it doesn't serve any (identifiable) critical function, why bother clinging to it?
Free will is not necessary - there was no free will for the first 13 bollion years of the universe.   Free will - an aspect of consciousness - came into existence as a consequence o the evoution of minds (implemened by brains).   but once Free will/consciousness etc came into existence it was a a game changer.  In a universe without consciousness, nothing matters.  It doesn't matter if a dead planet is blown up by a supernova,  but if that planet held conscious life then there is loss of civilsations, of art, of science and knowlege.  
#569
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@keithprosser
but once Free will/consciousness etc came into existence it was a a game changer.  In a universe without consciousness, nothing matters.
You can have an experience of Qualia (meaningfulness) without freewill.
#570
TwoMan
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@3RU7AL
What necessary function does freewill perform in your worldview?
Do I really need to explain the functionality of being able to choose between 2 or more possible courses of action?