Atonement

Author: keithprosser

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#31
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@Mopac
I think it is worth noting that in Orthodoxy, we do not teach that man inherited Adam's guilt.
No, not his guilt. We are judged on our own guilt and sin. We inherited the penalty for his sin, thus Adam was our representative before God. Through one man, Adam, sin entered into the world, and through sin - death. So what Adam did effects us. Humanity was separated from God via Adam. 

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

We inherit the nature that was in Adam after the fall, thus, we need a new nature/spirit restored to us. Thus, we need to be born again, renewed by God. Our nature in Adam is hostile to God. Our nature in Christ loves God. Jesus Christ is the Second Adam for good reason. He is the One who represents us before God as Adam did, yet Jesus was/is without sin.   

If you are dead in your sins what can you do? What can a dead man/woman do? He/she is helpless. He/she needs the grace and mercy of God to transform him/her.

Ephesians 2:1-2 (NASB)
Made Alive in Christ
2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

That is why Jesus taught that we MUST be born again to see and enter into the kingdom. We need the transforming power of God working in our lives. 
#32
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No, that is not what I'm saying. Jesus was both human and God in Mary's womb. What I am saying is that God, as an eternal Being, cannot be born. He always is. You are birthing the two natures together in the birth process. The child is born, the Son is given.


We both of course know that God is eternal. God does not have a beginning, even The Word, being co-eternal with God.

But it was God who was in mary's womb, and God who was born of the virgin Mary.



No, not his guilt. We are judged on our own guilt and sin. We inherited the penalty for his sin,


This is certainly the Orthodox position. I think we agree on the rest.
#33
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@Stephen
You keep claiming that keith accepts the historical Christ when he specifically rejects the historicity of a Christ but admits the partial historicity of a Jesus character, your insistence that keith accepts the Christ character as historical is simply dishonest.

@keith
I think he probably did say some of the things ascribed to him, but he couldn't perform miracles.
I hope that clears up what I mean by 'partly historical'.  Did Jesus exist?  If by 'jesus' you mean a charismatic human preacher who founded a religion, then yes.   If by 'Jesus' you mean the miracle working, divine virgin born son of a god then no.


#34
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@golfer
Why was the Yahweh god so stupid as to demand an animal sacrifice every year and then change his mind and demand a human sacrifice and a divine sacrifice once in eternity?
#35
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You keep claiming that keith accepts the historical Christ when he specifically rejects the historicity of a Christ but admits the partial historicity of a Jesus character, your insistence that keith accepts the Christ character as historical is simply dishonest.



I see you just want to cause an argument on someone else's behalf on what is someone else's thread.

I suggest you go back an try to read posts 3/4&5.

I am in total agreement with processor for once. And I say so. I too believe in a historical Jesus minus the miracles. I hope that clears that up.

This may help you as I understand you cannot cope with one or more sentence all at once, being the vile  buffoon that you are.

here >>

--> @keithprosser post  #1. I can accept that Jesus was partly historical, and that he was very likely crucified.


he goes on to admit

@keithprosser    post #4  I think that Jesus was a person,not a god or a divinity.   I think he probably did say some of the things ascribed to him, but he couldn't perform miracles.   I think he probably was crucified, but he certainly wasn't born of a virgin.

 I responded at post #5
So do most level headed biblical historians. but this is the first time I have heard you admit that and I agree. 
So stop trying to stir shit on this thread that was flowing along coherently and amicably before someone believed it would be a good idea to allow you, a complete and utter vile buffoon to rejoin the forum community.


If prosser believes I have lied about him then  let him take it up with me and not allow you to invent 'crimes'  on his behalf and complain on his behalf.

#36
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@Stephen
Then why did you lie here?


That depends on what you- now a believer in the historic Christ
He has never claimed to believe in an historic Christ, try occasionally to approach the truth. Nobody owns a thread on a public forum, sorry to break that news to you.
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#37
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@Stephen
@disgusted
As what 'Historic Christ' means is open to interpretation, what I believe is that the divine Jesus is a fictional character based on a real human being.

Which American president chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie?   Obviously, George Washington.  But the story was made up an there is in reality no American president who chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie.  It's a semantic mess.
#38
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@keithprosser
The divine Jesus is God, who is certainly not made up.

Without "Divine Jesus", there is no "historical Jesus", because the historical Jesus is the divine Jesus.







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#39
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@Mopac
These days I'm more careful to put 'I believe' in my posts. I can guarantee

What I believe is that the divine Jesus is a fictional character based on a real human being.
is 100% true.

I'm sure what you wrote is what you believe, too.

 
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@Mopac
That is patently false from a factual historical view, but truth is not within your capabilities.
#41
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@keithprosser
It is a mistake to say that God is based off a man who walked the Earth after people were already aware of God's existence.
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#42
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@Mopac
It is a mistake to say that God is based off a man who walked the Earth after people were already aware of God's existence.
I think what you call 'awareness of God's existence' is really 'belief in God's existence'.  

I do not say 'God is based off a man' - I say there is no God.  I say one particular set of religious beliefs trace back to the human Jesus.
   

#43
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@keithprosser
To say there is no ultimate reality is self defeating and foolish. You might as well be saying, "I cannot be trusted to tell the truth."


As you do not accept what should truly be the common ground of humanity, that is, God's existence, how can you possibly hope to know who Jesus is?


Yet knowing Jesus Christ and The One True God is eternal life.

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@Mopac
Your Yahweh god is an invention of the Canaanites and your Jesus god apparently saved you from the Yahweh god. There is your belief in a nutshell.
#45
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@keithprosser
Hey keith look at me.
Look at me. 
I've two words for you keith,  ( THE ULTIMATE REALITY )
TUR.
Saying there is no TUR is outrageous. I mean ,  it's not like we are living in the just normal reality. 
Rubble Rubble Rubble.
Good day Sir.



  

#46
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality can not be an invention, as that implies that The Ultimate Reality at one time was not. The Ultimate Reality is by essence eternal, pre-eternal even, as The Ultimate Reality's existence is not contingent on time, but time's existence is contingent on The Ultimate Reality.
#47
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Things are not as they seem.

A pretty simple evidence of Ultimate Reality.
#48
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@Mopac
Well let us ask the Church shall we?
Church? 
Hey Church?

Yep, exactly how i thought it would be.  
Churches like the Gods don't speak. 



 
#49
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@Deb-8-a-bull
When God speaks, the universe moves.
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@Mopac
Your god by whatever other name you want to call it is the Canaanite Yahweh and didn't exist until they created it along with the rest of their pantheon.
Why did your other god the Jesus one need to save you from the Canaanite Yahweh god?
#51
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@disgusted
You say that God began to exist when a certain people gave God a certain created name not because it is true, but because you are in denial of what The Ultimate Reality means.

The Ultimate Reality did not begin to exist.


The Ultimate Reality is God.


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@Mopac
When God speaks, the universe moves
But as we know from your bible your Canaanite Yahweh god has never spoken.

The Ultimate Reality is God.
The Canaanite Yahweh god didn't exist until the Canaanites invented it as a member of their pantheon of gods
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@Mopac
That of course is just another of your unsupportable claims. Show me your Canaanite Yahweh before the Canaanites.
#54
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@disgusted

You are a nihilist, the very idea of a claim being supported is an absurdity to you. 

There is nothing reasonable about what you are doing. If you ever make an appeal to reason, it is only for the sake of destruction. It is done out of convenience.

The Ultimate Reality exists.


Can you say there is no ultimate reality?


Even you know how foolish it will make you look if you say this.
#55
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@Mopac
You are a nihilist, the very idea of a claim being supported is an absurdity to you. 
I have already disabused you of that falsehood but your total avoidance of truth doesn't allow you to understand.
There is nothing reasonable about what you are doing. If you ever make an appeal to reason, it is only for the sake of destruction. It is done out of convenience.
You are deathly afraid of what I say because you are deathly afraid of death.
The Ultimate Reality exists.
What you claim is an ultimate reality ie one of the Canaanite pantheon of gods most certainly doesn't exist.

Can you say there is no ultimate reality?
I can certainly say that the Canaanite god you claim is your ultimate reality doesn't exist.

Even you know how foolish it will make you look if you say this.
Foolish is the one who believes in fairy tales and Canaanite gods.
#56
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@disgusted
If you say The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist, you are a nihilist.

If you are going to argue that roses didn't exist until they were named roses, I would say you making a ridiculous argument.


And truly, you are making a ridiculous argument. 





#57
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@Mopac
I've never made any of those claims so you must be stupid to accuse me of such,
#58
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@disgusted
Can you say, "There is ultimate reality?"

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@Mopac
Can't you read? Your Canaanite god is not real. That is what you claim your ultimate reality is so you are deluded.
#60
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@disgusted
You are dodging the question.


I did not ask you about "my Canaanite god", I asked you if you can say, "There is ultimate reality."