We can never really know anything

Author: TheRealNihilist

Posts

Total: 102
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Mopac has really been indoctrinated. Don't think there is a non-force-able way to help him. Not implying I would do something like that because he is not someone I care about.


Don't worry, when the people you support politically bring about socialist revolution, they will do the forcing for you, just like they do everywhere they torture and murder my people. They care, because anything that goes against the "scientific atheism" or state worship of communist society is considered sedition.

Maybe the time is coming soon, and you can be comforted to know that those pesky Christians who preach love of The Truth and goodwill towards man are finally silenced.




TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@Mopac
Don't worry, when the people you support politically bring about socialist revolution, they will do the forcing for you, just like they do everywhere they torture and murder my people.
Most of the people who say they want a revolution are too cowardly to commit on it.
They care, because anything that goes against the "scientific atheism" or state worship of communist society is considered sedition.
"scientific atheism" is the same thing as state worship of community society?
You would be worshiping the state if it was a monarchy so please stop with the hypocrisy.
Maybe the time is coming soon, and you can be comforted to know that those pesky Christians who preach love of The Truth and goodwill towards man are finally silenced.
I dislike Christians. Doesn't mean I want them murdered if they don't start it as in group representatives advocate and commit murder. Doubtful that can occur and since Christians are very different across the world I hardly see anyone to be a representative of every Christian community. I guess it would have to specific like the Pope in Rome advocates and commit violence which I think justifies people who are impacted by it to act in Rome. 

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the Christian Church. And no other church is persecuted so heavily. Our church does not believe in using violence. We certainly are victims of violence. This is no strange thing to us, as even Jesus Christ said it would be the case. The world hates us because it prefers darkness to the light. We are a church of martyrs. Sent out into a world that would sooner kill us than understand us. Yet we stand for love. Love is as acid to the ears of those who hate.

We have no vicar of Christ. Christ is our king, and what he stood for that is what we stand for. We pray for the peace of the whole world and the union of all men. We pray for those who persecute us. We are not a violent people, but we are hated because the world hates Christ. They hate Christ without a cause.

Stronn
Stronn's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 511
2
2
4
Stronn's avatar
Stronn
2
2
4
-->
@Mopac
You are looking at things backwards. You are taking your understanding of the "Abrahamic God" and disouting that this is The Ultimate Reality. Rather, you should instead believe what we say, and that is that the scripture which is all you are working with chronicles a people who are struggling with God. That is what "Israel" means.

Translation: Believe first, then make the evidence fit your belief.

You are the one who is looking at things backwards.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Stronn
We are a living tradition. We don't need the bible to act as evidence. The evidence is what we teach.


The Truth is God.
Love God by purifying the intellect.


If you can't see what I am saying is true, it is because you are trying very hard not to.


We know what we use the bible to teach. You don't.  You are in the dark, and too arrogant to be taught that which is contrary to your understanding. After all, you know better what I believe than I do!

In fact, you are guilty of what you are accusing me of. You believe that God is nonexistent, and this perverts your ability to understand what it is we actually believe.


The Ultimate Reality is God, and you are a fool if you say The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
Claiming that nothing is knowable is how invalids knock everyone down to their level. They do this because of PRIDE. They can't stand the idea of someone knowing better than them.

It is the last refuge of know it all dipshits everywhere.


TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@Mopac
It is the last refuge of know it all dipshits everywhere.
Says the person who changes definitions. Uses a word like "ultimate reality" instead of reality and doesn't provide evidence instead begs the questions by simply using definitions to state God exists not with any evidence or explanation. 

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
I have stated repeatedly, this is how the church has always understood God. I am not the one using newspeak. But you don't listen very well, and I know you don't because you break my posts into little ADHD chunks when you respond to me.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
The Ultimate Reality exists. That is what God is. How is it on me when the only atheist argument is to define God to be something other?

I feel no inadequacy in my position when the opposition to it can only have an argument if they make strawmen. Unless they make a strawman, they have no argument! 

The other argument they have is to attack created things such as scriptures and traditions. Tearing down a created thing does not tear down The Uncreated Truth.

The point is, there is no argument against God, and denying God is foolish.



TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@Mopac
I have stated repeatedly, this is how the church has always understood God. I am not the one using newspeak. But you don't listen very well, and I know you don't because you break my posts into little ADHD chunks when you respond to me.
I only thing I needed to do to prove I don't have ADHD was to quote your entire response. You sure your measurements okay? Guess believing in dumb things leaves your susceptible in other dumb things. Like being a Christian leaves you susceptible thinking you also having knowledge on how to correctly medical examine someone. Argument of ignorance if you didn't understand what you are doing currently. 
The Ultimate Reality exists. That is what God is. How is it on me when the only atheist argument is to define God to be something other?
Reality exists. God doesn't. You are defining God to be reality which it isn't. If it was the definitions would be like what you said instead you use the word "Ultimate Reality" as if that makes me wrong. It doesn't. God doesn't exist. Reality doesn't. Is that too much for you to comprehend?
I feel no inadequacy in my position when the opposition to it can only have an argument if they make strawmen. Unless they make a strawman, they have no argument! 
Who would have thought an irrational theist would resort to being irrational? You have an unjustified argument for God which is why you argue over definitions inherently leading to God instead of showing evidence because you can't point to it. I wonder why.
The other argument they have is to attack created things such as scriptures and traditions. Tearing down a created thing does not tear down The Uncreated Truth.
Attack? Is that what you call a rebuttal? I can't imagine how you would deal with an actual physical conflict you had to deal with. This is nonsense. I have stuck to God yet you are complaining about things I haven't said. 
The point is, there is no argument against God, and denying God is foolish.
We haven't gone past the only argument that matters which is if God exists or not. Your failure to show this shows the lack of knowledge your supposed God gave you to counter said sinners instead maybe just maybe God doesn't exist. You are wrong and don't know what you are talking about. Has that crossed your mind or were you always indoctrinated? 


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Yeah.  Mopac and Descartes both rely on the principle even the appeance of reality requires there must be something rather than nothing.
But is that principle justified? 
Yes.  Since "nothingness" is logically impossible, the only possible conclusion is that there is "something".
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
You are talking such nonsense it isn't even worth addressing.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheRealNihilist
We rely on axioms to do anything.
Axioms are usually reverse-engineered (deduced) from our intuition using logic.  Very few systems are built explicitly from the ground up.

We presuppose we are rational.
Rational is a synonym of Logical.  (IFF) you believe in cause and effect (THEN) all thoughts and actions are logical consequences of initial conditions.

We presuppose our senses are not deceiving us.
Our senses are not intentionally lying to us, they are merely imprecise and incomplete.  A good example is the blind men who examine an elephant. [LINK]

We presuppose we can view the external world.
Anything fundamentally separate (external) is undetectable.  In order to interact with something, we must have a fundamental similarity to it, that is to say we must be part of the same system.  De facto Monism is necessarily true.

Under these presuppositions we can lets say speculate on the world but that doesn't mean we know things.
Knowledge is merely data.  We do collect data.  Whether or not this data is "True" is more of an ontological question.

It just means under specific axioms we can speculate on the external world.
There is nothing to stop individuals from speculating, whether they identify their axioms or not.

If we did know something we wouldn't be using axioms instead we use it because it is the only way to observe what is around but that doesn't mean we know. 
What is the "it" you are referring to?  Are you talking about direct experience versus logical induction/deduction?

This is mainly used for people to counter what I said or give examples of when we have known something. 
I now know that you wrote this and that I have replied to it.  This is an example of something that I know.

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.
I trust you will attempt to clarify any misunderstandings.
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@3RU7AL
Axioms are usually reverse-engineered (deduced) from our intuition using logic.  Very few systems are built explicitly from the ground up.
Is it in the lines of that?

Rational is a synonym of Logical.  (IFF) you believe in cause and effect (THEN) all thoughts and actions are logical consequences of initial conditions.
Logic is a system. Rationale is I think attributing something that relies little on feelings.
Our senses are not intentionally lying to us, they are merely imprecise and incomplete.  A good example is the blind men who examine an elephant. [LINK]
Didn't meant deceive as an ill intent. More so something that can be perfect but still rely on our brain which can deceive. I am using deceive as manipulate or not really show everything. I agree with what you said here as in people who are blind can't see observable evidence. 
Anything fundamentally separate (external) is undetectable.  In order to interact with something, we must have a fundamental similarity to it, that is to say we must be part of the same system.
Solipsism?
De facto Monism is necessarily true.
What is this? Can't find it on Google.
Knowledge is merely data.  We do collect data.  Whether or not this data is "True" is more of an ontological question.
I consider knowledge to be how we interact with data. Like a theist might say with cause and effect we state God exists. An Atheist might say well then what caused God?
There is nothing to stop individuals from speculating, whether they identify their axioms or not.
Yes.
What is the "it" you are referring to?  Are you talking about direct experience versus logical induction/deduction?
It is external surroundings.
I now know that you wrote this and that I have replied to it.  This is an example of something that I know.
That know is from knowledge that you consider to be truthful but can't really prove it. Like what I said under what we can do I know not what can get me the actual know. It is mainly used since I can't think of a better word for it.
I trust you will attempt to clarify any misunderstandings.
Yes. I think I did so. Don't really know. 

TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@3RU7AL
You are talking such nonsense it isn't even worth addressing.
Given up?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheRealNihilist
De facto Monism is necessarily true.
What is this? Can't find it on Google.
Spinoza explains, [LINK] and [WIKI]
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Quite the contrary, I declare God victorious and your argument even lower than sophistry.

The Ultimate Reality exists. You yourself admit reality exists, so even you believe that there is a way existence is in actuality.

TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@3RU7AL
Sorry had the wrong person as the receiver. 
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@Mopac
Quite the contrary, I declare God victorious and your argument even lower than sophistry.
First it has to exist right? Yet you can't demonstrate it. Oh well. 
The Ultimate Reality exists. You yourself admit reality exists, so even you believe that there is a way existence is in actuality.
Reality exists. God doesn't exist. Can you comprehend that or am I going to get you lying about my position or change definitions to make God inherent?

Your lack of justification for your belief in God is laughable. I only hope you are a fringe minority theist so that others can actually realize how baseless their positions are so that they can lets say stop stating their dislike over sin like homosexuality etc. 

TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@3RU7AL
De facto Monism is necessarily true.
What is this? Can't find it on Google. 
Spinoza explains, [LINK] and [WIKI]
How is monism de facto?
Monism is all is one. De facto means it is wrong.

Care to explain what I am getting wrong? 
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
You aren't talking about God, you are talking about something else.

That is the crux of your non-argument. You want me to prove your superstition about God, you don't actually want me to prove God. The proof is in accepting what is meant by God. The Ultimate Reality. 


If it doesn't exist, it isn't God. It must exist in order to be God. That is why it isn't just wrong to say God doesn't exist, it is stupid and indefensible.

Prove to me it is true that there is truth!



keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@TheRealNihilist
How is monism de facto?
Monism is all is one. De facto means it is wrong.
Care to explain what I am getting wrong? 
It's a very simple argument: if two 'separate' system interract they are not really separate.  Physicalist monists think the one 'big' system is the physical, idealists and solipsists are monists who think the single system is 'mental'.

It's quite a big problem putting these concepts into words - hence semantic quibling replaces constructive discussion far too often..
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@Mopac
Instead of giving proof you just have to believe or accept. Talk about how irrational your views are.
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@keithprosser
Then how is monism de facto?
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@TheRealNihilist
I don't think whether 'de facto' is the 'technically correct' term for what 3rutal meant isn't worth spending much time on.
 
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@keithprosser
I don't think whether 'de facto' is the 'technically correct' term for what 3rutal meant isn't worth spending much time on.
What is worth spending time on? 
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Explain to me how I can prove a tree to you when you think a rock is a tree.
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@TheRealNihilist
What is worth spending time on? 
"Can a robot be conscious?"   We might have to spend time on what 'be conscious' means, but not on what 'de facto' means!

TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@keithprosser
"Can a robot be conscious?"   We might have to spend time on what 'be conscious' means, but not on what 'de facto' means!
Well I think that question is pretty shite since there is no arbitrary way of stating conscious but hey isn't everything everything arbitrary? So... I don't know where I was going with this. 

TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
Explain to me how I can prove a tree to you when you think a rock is a tree.
Explain to me how linking to definitions together makes you true.
Explain to me how you think a tree is the same as a plant even though they are different.
Explain to me how someone can be like you. Indoctrination, boredom, stupidity?