We can never really know anything

Author: TheRealNihilist

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@TheRealNihilist
How is monism de facto?
Monism is all is one. De facto means it is wrong.

Care to explain what I am getting wrong? 
DE FACTO adjective

Definition of de facto

1 : ACTUAL
especially : being such in effect though not formally recognized
a de facto state of war [LINK]

Monism is functionally identical to non-monism (substance dualism).

Counterfactual:

(IFF) non-monism is true (THEN) the fundamentally dissimilar hypothetical "substance" (ghosts gods and hobgoblins) can have ZERO effect and ZERO interaction with what we can observe (THEREFORE) they (ghosts gods and hobgoblins) are de facto non-existent and there is no conceivable reason to imagine they can or will have any effect whatsoever on anything REAL.

IN SUMMARY: Whether or not Monism is "really really really true" is a moot point. 

Based on very simple logic we can deduce that even a non-monism cosmos would (does) act EXACTLY like a Monistic cosmos.
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@TheRealNihilist
The purpose of a definition is to clarify what is being discussed.

The definition I am giving you of God is "The Ultimate Reality" which is in line with what the church teaches. Besides that, it is the definition you will find in Merriam-webster's collegiate dictionary. The Oxford uses "Supreme Being" which means the same thing.

Your entire argument is to say that God is something other than this. Thus, you aren't talking ahout the same thing but you act as you are .
You have a non-argument. 

And it isn't about me being true. It is about God being true, because God is The Truth. You cannot make an argument that The Truth is a lie. That there is no Truth. If you say, "There is no truth", you undermine your own assertion.

Of course you know this, because you admit that reality exists. That is why you must make God something other than God to have an argument. Otherwise, your argument would amount to, "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth! Ha! You can't! I win!".


And even this whole appeal to epistemological nihilism is a cover. It isn't that you don't know, it is that you know better(in your own reasoning). It is something that comes from pride, even though to the undiscerning it might look like humility. "Oh, he doesn't know". But you aren't simply saying "I don't know." You are saying that nobody can know(because you know better). You are also asserting that God doesn't exist.

So do you know God doesn't exist? Not at all. You don't even know what God is. You are uneducated, and because you are an unteachable know-it-all who can't stand the idea of not being the smartest most well informed person in the room, you in your pride must knock everyone down to your level. You fancy yourself scientific. But I tell you, if you were in. a room of engineers, they would laugh at you for trying to impress them with your nonsense, and tell you to take your know nothing bullshit to the dirty pot smoking drum circle kids by the river, who might actually be impressed if they weren't as arrogant as you are.








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@TheRealNihilist
If it doesn't exist, it isn't God. It must exist in order to be God. That is why it isn't just wrong to say God doesn't exist, it is stupid and indefensible.
I'll give the equivalent of an 2009 zimbabwean dollar to who spots the law in that logic...
(ie a 300 trillionth of  a US$)



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@keithprosser
If it doesn't exist, it isn't God.
P1 - GOD MUST EXIST

It must exist in order to be God.
P2 - GOD MUST EXIST

That is why it isn't just wrong to say God doesn't exist, it is stupid and indefensible.
(IFF) god = exist (THEN) exist = god (THEREFORE) god = everything and everything = god.

You could have just said THE ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT.
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The purpose of a definition is to clarify what is being discussed.
That isn't what you are doing. We are discussing whether or not God exists. Your definitions makes it inherent therefore there is nothing to discuss. That is like me saying God doesn't exist = reality.
The definition I am giving you of God is "The Ultimate Reality" which is in line with what the church teaches. Besides that, it is the definition you will find in Merriam-webster's collegiate dictionary. The Oxford uses "Supreme Being" which means the same thing.
Why are you using ultimate reality? Instead of reality? Are you saying there is more than 1 reality? A reality that God doesn't exist?
Your entire argument is to say that God is something other than this. Thus, you aren't talking ahout the same thing but you act as you are .
You have a non-argument. 
My argument is that you are not here to discuss instead indoctrinate. If that wasn't clear see your clear not wanting to discuss about whether or not God exists instead stating it is inherent. So basically the discussion ended the moment it started defining the terms.
And it isn't about me being true. It is about God being true, because God is The Truth. You cannot make an argument that The Truth is a lie. That there is no Truth. If you say, "There is no truth", you undermine your own assertion.
Yet again linking definitions together instead of discussing. Can't defend your God so your resort to using definitions to make inherent? Cheap tactic from a person who lacks even a single justification for their belief in God.  
Of course you know this, because you admit that reality exists. That is why you must make God something other than God to have an argument. Otherwise, your argument would amount to, "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth! Ha! You can't! I win!".
Reality exists. God doesn't. That can be the case so you must demonstrate how it is God instead of simply stating God = reality.
And even this whole appeal to epistemological nihilism is a cover. It isn't that you don't know, it is that you know better(in your own reasoning). It is something that comes from pride, even though to the undiscerning it might look like humility. "Oh, he doesn't know". But you aren't simply saying "I don't know." You are saying that nobody can know(because you know better). You are also asserting that God doesn't exist.
I am asserting God doesn't exist given the failure of theists giving an argument for God. I am asserting aliens don't exist given the failure of NASA to find them.
So do you know God doesn't exist? Not at all. You don't even know what God is. You are uneducated, and because you are an unteachable know-it-all who can't stand the idea of not being the smartest most well informed person in the room, you in your pride must knock everyone down to your level. You fancy yourself scientific. But I tell you, if you were in. a room of engineers, they would laugh at you for trying to impress them with your nonsense, and tell you to take your know nothing bullshit to the dirty pot smoking drum circle kids by the river, who might actually be impressed if they weren't as arrogant as you are.
An irrational theist who can't defend or even make an argument for the God he believes calls me uneducated? You were indoctrinated into your way of thinking and frankly can't comprehend what I am talking about. Your lack of understanding shows how uneducated you are. 

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@Mopac
Above
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@3RU7AL
Based on very simple logic we can deduce that even a non-monism cosmos would (does) act EXACTLY like a Monistic cosmos.
What do you mean here? 
We wouldn't know the difference? 
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@3RU7AL
You are in the lead for the 1/300000000000000 of a dollar.
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@TheRealNihilist
We wouldn't know the difference? 
 Simple consciousness as an occupied space Universe made of three occupied space parts;
Me, you and line-of-relationship and is based upon inherently induces otherness ergo awareness via line-of-relationship and triangulation as structural integrity if not also coherence as a wholistic set.

O = me or this quanta

O = you or another quanta

----   = line-of-relationship  between me and you ex O----O or as (o)(o) wherein the geodesic enclosure of me and you is connected as a geodesic { Space }

........ = macro infinite non-occupied space as background for the the three occupied space parts.

Most cannot even grasp this simple explanation for consciousness much less a more complex consciousness.

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@mustardness
I cannot even grasp that.

Can you make what you said simpler? 

So me is a space in a universe which is also a space?

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@TheRealNihilist
Just for Mopac's benefit, perhaps instead of discussing the existence of God we could discuss the existence of a cosmic entity that answers prayers, decides of the fate of dead people and gets upset if you kiss some one of the same sex.  For convenience we can refer to that entity as Jeremy.

I am not sure about my position on any 'ultimate reality' because I'm not sure what those words mean, but I am sure Jeremy doesn't exist.

I am no longer an atheist - I am an ajeremyist.


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@3RU7AL
Noncontingent existence(Divinity) is of a different essence than contingent existence(creation). They are both of different essences and natures. Or of different physis and ousia.

However, the physis of divinity and the physis of creation are united in one foundational reality, or hypostasis.

To say that divinity and creation are of the same physis is called monophysitism, which for various reasons cannot be a correct formulation. The main reason of course being that the uncreated is by nature different than the created. The contingent by nature different than the non-contingent. So they are of a different physis. Monophysitism being an incorrect formulation.

Dyophysitism, which is as I explained the two physis being united in one hypostasis is the correct formulation.


To be very clear, this isn't a refutation of monism. I am simply pointing out that there are some important nuances here that we Orthodox understand as being very important to describe the type of relationship the created world has with the divine. In fact, our theology largely has to do with this relationship between the created and the uncreated, and how they are both reconciled and made one. The two natures cannot be confused.

We are certainly not dualists. You could say we are monists, because we believe that there is One Ultimate Reality that fills all things, who we live and move and have our being in. We are not pantheists, which would probably be a form of monophysitism, but we could be described as panentheists, for God fills and sustains all of the created world but is not circumscribed by it.

Anyway, thought you might find that interesting.










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@keithprosser
Here in Texas, we refer to Jeremy as the elusive jackalope.

Mopac
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes, I am calling you uneducated, and I further assert that you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't see our conversation as being fruitful, because you are simply averse to God. You do not approach this subject reasonably. 

You are wrong. But I am not going to convince you of that. Besides, you aren't fun to talk to. You aren't very polite.

Mopac
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes, I am calling you uneducated, and I further assert that you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't see our conversation as being fruitful, because you are simply averse to God. You do not approach this subject reasonably. 

You are wrong. But I am not going to convince you of that. Besides, you aren't fun to talk to. You aren't very polite.

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@keithprosser
Just for Mopac's benefit, perhaps instead of discussing the existence of God we could discuss the existence of a cosmic entity that answers prayers, decides of the fate of dead people and gets upset if you kiss some one of the same sex.  For convenience we can refer to that entity as Jeremy.
Given his linking definitions I find it difficult he won't do that yet again like with God = Ultimate Reality God = Truth. What is stopping him from doing that again like a mindless theist parroting from his indoctrination?

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Yes, I am calling you uneducated, and I further assert that you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't see our conversation as being fruitful, because you are simply averse to God. You do not approach this subject reasonably. 
It is not reasonable to conclude something exists because your definitions said so not because you have discussed it or arrived at it with evidence. Your the irrational uneducated person having your delusions higher than what can be stated.
You are wrong. But I am not going to convince you of that. Besides, you aren't fun to talk to. You aren't very polite.
You are wrong. I don't need to convince you to state you are wrong. You are boring and started the bad comments first. 

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@TheRealNihilist
The problem with me trying to help you out through your superstitious beliefs about God is that you won't accept what I say, because you are not willing to be corrected. You can call me names alll you want, but I am very confident posterity will rule overwhelmingly against you.

Mopac
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God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud. The proud will get nothing but the curse of delusion, because they received not the love of The Truth.
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The equal sign is incomprehensible to the relativistic minded nihilist.
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The nihilist likes to point the finger and call others indoctrinated, but a nihilist is one who is inherently in denial of their doctrine.
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@TheRealNihilist
Based on very simple logic we can deduce that even a non-monism cosmos would (does) act EXACTLY like a Monistic cosmos.
What do you mean here? 
We wouldn't know the difference? 
The "difference" is beyond our epistemological limits.

And utterly moot.

(IFF) gods ghosts and hobgoblins are a fundamentally separate "substance" (supernatural) (THEN) they can have no effect on REALITY and as such can safely be said to NOT EXIST.

Things that exist are detectable.  Things that are not detectable do not exist.
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@3RU7AL
IFF) gods ghosts and hobgoblins are a fundamentally separate "substance" (supernatural) (THEN) they can have no effect on REALITY and as such can safely be said to NOT EXIST.



Ousia(substance or essence) is all that subsists by itself and which has not its being in another. Reality is not the right word to use, because reality and creation are not the same thing. However, as I said before, there is a divine physis and a physis of creation that are united in hypostasis. This hypostasis unites creation to the Divine Ousia or Essence/Substance.

So it would be right to say that The Ultimate Reality is what reality stands on (sub stand.. under stand.. get it? The substance is the foundation). There can be no reality without Ultimate Reality, just as for something to be true, The Truth must be in it.
 
Things that exist are detectable.  Things that are not detectable do not exist.

I think that is a very naive opinion. Something does not have to be known in order to exist. But we can know God exists through the things that are. So certainly, God is not one of these undetectables. If this was the case, what could we talk about? But the unknowableness of God does not refute God's existence. Neither does the unknowableness of real undetectable phenomena refute their existence.

Microwaves and radio waves and such were at one time undetectable. Yet they existed before they were.


3RU7AL
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@Mopac
Microwaves and radio waves and such were at one time undetectable. Yet they existed before they were.
These were never considered "fundamentally separate" (supernatural).

Even before they were detected, they were not considered undetectable.
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@3RU7AL
I don't think "fundamentally seperate" is a proper way to describe supernatural. Before these waves were detected, they were not likely considered at all.

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@Mopac
I don't think "fundamentally seperate" is a proper way to describe supernatural.
(EITHER) the natural is a manifestation of the supernatural (OR) the supernatural is a manifestation of the natural.

One is (EITHER) necessarily part of the other (allowing them to interact) (OR) one of them is indistinguishable from Non-Existent (no interaction).

Before these waves were detected, they were not likely considered at all.
Precisely.

When (or if) we detect evidence of ghosts gods or hobgoblins, only THEN will they be considered REAL.
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@3RU7AL
What is knowledge to one group may not be knowledge to another. Just as what is knowledge to me may not be knowledge to you.

That being the case, there certainly are those who are convinced of spooks and such. Their being convinced due to the interpretation evidence of their experience does not necessarily translate to evidence for you.

My point being, I don't reqlly believe it is appropriate to speak of a "we" when it comes to evidence and knowing. At that point we are moving in to "my reality" or "what is real to me" territory.

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@3RU7AL
Some of occupied space things that exist, are have not yet been quanified nor quantised ex gravity and dark energy, if not also virtual particles.

Metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts and ego are energyless and do not occupy a space. 

Ex concept of basket ball is not an occupied space it has not charge, no spin, no mass, no color etc.
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@TheRealNihilist
Can you make what you said simpler? 
Not that I can see.  There is only three occupied space parts and you can grasp even one of the three I listed appears to me to be pretty lame.

Do you not what the the number three means. 1, 2, 3?

Do understand what an occupied space means?

I mean this is pretty simple stuff if you not a 8 year old or younger.
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@mustardness
The way you frame is kinda a difficult to read.