Is Hinduism a religion?

Author: janesix

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@Harikrish
The resurrection we believe happens in eternity. That is, it is not a temporal resurrection. If it was, we would not believe that the saints who passed on from this world are with us. 

In our eschatology, there is simply no room for reincarnation, because reincarnation is a temporal phenomenoand the resurrection occurs in eternity as The Light of God's Truth reveals all as it truly is in God. Falsehood  and death are melted away and vanquised by The Life that is The Truth.

We do not worship a corpse as God. We worship God, The Ultimate Reality in Trinity, that is, in Spirit and in Truth.


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@Mopac
The resurrection we believe happens in eternity. That is, it is not a temporal resurrection. If it was, we would not believe that the saints who passed on from this world are with us.

In our eschatology, there is simply no room for reincarnation, because reincarnation is a temporal phenomenoand the resurrection occurs in eternity as The Light of God's Truth reveals all as it truly is in God. Falsehood  and death are melted away and vanquised by The Life that is The Truth.

We do not worship a corpse as God. We worship God, The Ultimate Reality in Trinity, that is, in Spirit and in Truth.


The crucifix is a symbol of a dead Jewish corpse nailed to a wooden cross that Christians worship.

The Christian dead are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected. The promise has not been received.
Thessalonians 4:13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

In these verses, Paul confidently affirms that there is a resurrection to come. Christians, unlike others who have no promise of an afterlife, should look forward to being with God after their physical death. Paul, in no uncertain terms declares that those who are dead in Christ will be raised from the dead! Death is not final!


Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. 

This is why the Pope declared Jesus a failure and the cross the great failure of God.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.
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@Harikrish
We will all certainly be brought up on the last day, when death itself will be conquered by The Truth and all is revealed as truly is in God, as it is written "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
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We will all certainly be brought up on the last day, when death itself will be conquered by The Truth and all is revealed as truly is in God as it us written "a for his we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
We know what happened to the death. It was written "They received not the promise."

The crucifix is a symbol of a dead Jewish corpse nailed to a wooden cross that Christians worship.

The Christian dead are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected. The promise has not been received.
Thessalonians 4:13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

In these verses, Paul confidently affirms that there is a resurrection to come. Christians, unlike others who have no promise of an afterlife, should look forward to being with God after their physical death. Paul, in no uncertain terms declares that those who are dead in Christ will be raised from the dead! Death is not final!


Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised.

This is why the Pope declared Jesus a failure and the cross the great failure of God.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.


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@Harikrish
That scripture you are removing from context has nothing to do with what you are claiming.


Pope Francis, who is not an Orthodox Patriarch, did not say that Jesus was a failure, he said the opposite. 

"We can get caught up measuring the value of our apostolic works by the standards of efficiency, good management, and outward success which govern the business world.

Not that these things are unimportant!

We have been entrusted with a great responsibility, and God’s people rightly expect accountability from us.

But the true worth of our apostolate is measured by the value it has in God’s eyes.

To see and evaluate things from God’s perspective calls for constant conversion in the first days and years of our vocation and, need I say, it calls for great humility.

The cross shows us a different way of measuring success.

Ours is to plant the seeds: God sees to the fruits of our labors.

And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus . . . and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, in the failure of the cross."


What he is actually saying is that while it looked as if Jesus failed, we are still talking about him today and many have been enlightened since his "failure". What looked like a failure was in fact not a failure, but a victory.

As it is written,

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."


Christ at the crucifixion was the seed, thst body on the cross. The fruit of that is The Church, which is the body of Christ.


And Pope Francis is encouraging those who do much work for the faith and see very little for it not to be discouraged,  because from the very beginning things looked bleak. Yet the church is still here.


I believe Pope Francis has a good preaching there, but I would like to remind you thst I belong to The Orthodox Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church which broke away from the rest of the church due to their corrupting the true faith as guarded by The True Orthodox Catholic Church.




12 days later

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@Mopac



Pope Francis, who is not an Orthodox Patriarch, did not say that Jesus was a failure, he said the opposite.

"We can get caught up measuring the value of our apostolic works by the standards of efficiency, good management, and outward success which govern the business world.

Not that these things are unimportant!

We have been entrusted with a great responsibility, and God’s people rightly expect accountability from us.

But the true worth of our apostolate is measured by the value it has in God’s eyes.

To see and evaluate things from God’s perspective calls for constant conversion in the first days and years of our vocation and, need I say, it calls for great humility.

The cross shows us a different way of measuring success.

Ours is to plant the seeds: God sees to the fruits of our labors.

And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus . . . and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, in the failure of the cross."
The Pope is simply saying if you are failing and produce no fruit, remember you are following a loser because Jesus's  life ended in failure.

What he is actually saying is that while it looked as if Jesus failed, we are still talking about him today and many have been enlightened since his "failure". What looked like a failure was in fact not a failure, but a victory.
Try convincing the Jews that were slaughtered after their temple was destroyed and Jerusalem laid bare. Jesus said he was sent only to save the Jews.For these reasons the Pope declared Jesus a failure and in another speech said the cross was the great failure of God
As it is written,

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."
The dead are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected. Having received not  the promise.

Christ at the crucifixion was the seed, thst body on the cross. The fruit of that is The Church, which is the body of Christ.

So you agree Jesus was crucified and not sacrificed.
And Pope Francis is encouraging those who do much work for the faith and see very little for it not to be discouraged,  because from the very beginning things looked bleak. Yet the church is still here.
So is the wall of China. There are 30,000 denominations of Churches because Christisns cannot agree which church will deliver the promise.

I believe Pope Francis has a good preaching there, but I would like to remind you thst I belong to The Orthodox Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church which broke away from the rest of the church due to their corrupting the true faith as guarded by The True Orthodox Catholic Church.




So even your church justified breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church. There is discontentment in the churches. As a biblical scholar I understand why.

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@Harikrish
Harikrish, even in a topic about what is supposed to be your faith, you still can't avoid bashing Christianity. Does anyone actually believe you are a biblical scholar? I don't think anybody here respects your self declarations. 

Harikrish, if I don't believe you understand my faith, how do you expect to persuade me? Do you really think anyone else is going to find you convincing? I tell you, you only speak to those who will likely agree with anything anti-Christian.


But this topic is about Hinduism, not Christianity. I say that Hinduism is not actually a single religion but many different religions with a common heritage. Is that really so controversial? If I am in err, surely you being a Hindu could better explain and point out my misconception. 

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@Mopac
Harikrish, even in a topic about what is supposed to be your faith, you still can't avoid bashing Christianity. Does anyone actually believe you are a biblical scholar? I don't think anybody here respects your self declarations.

Harikrish, if I don't believe you understand my faith, how do you expect to persuade me? Do you really think anyone else is going to find you convincing? I tell you, you only speak to those who will likely agree with anything anti-Christian.


But this topic is about Hinduism, not Christianity. I say that Hinduism is not actually a single religion but many different religions with a common heritage. Is that really so controversial? If I am in err, surely you being a Hindu could better explain and point out my misconception.


When discussing any religion it is common to get into comparisons with other religions. I went beyond the basic question, Is Hinduism a religion? And showed it stands well against other religions.

You ask Harikrish to point out your misconceptions and when he does you want to revert to you preconceptions of Hinduism. 

The basic foundation and premies of Christianity is wrong. It is a stolen religion and teaching that a Jew named Jesus died 2000 years ago for the sins of all Christisn believers promotes the belief that  only dead Jews can forgive sins. It is laughable and antisemitic.

You won't find this in Hinduism.
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@Harikrish
(In response to post #6)

There's two main categories of things to look for in a religion:

1. Theology
2. Cosmology

Broadly defined, theology is the "core message" of a religion that distinguishes it from other belief systems. "Worship Vishnu" as opposed to "Worship Zeus" does not count as such. Rather, that would count as a cosmological (again, broadly defined) detail. Cosmology entails the name and physical description of deity, the history of what that deity did, and so on. It entails a description of a Universe rife with supernatural elements.

Christianity has a truly excellent theology, universal in scope, answering the most important questions in life.
For example: "I've done some really crummy things in life, or at least had really bad and inexcusable thoughts. People in general think I'm a good guy but I don't feel like that's really the case. Assuming a moral Universe, is there some kind of cosmic consequence for my underlying bad nature?"
Indian religions (and to be clear, there is no unity in these either) assume rather that "Life is inherently full of suffering" and (in Hinduism) bad karma is the reason. This begs the question, of course: If we were originally of a pure divine essence, did that pure divine essence commit sin?
In addition, "Life has more suffering than not" is a generalization which obviously isn't always true. And yet the universal instinct of Indian religion is to find "liberation" from existence regardless of its conditions.
In Christianity, though the effects of individual sin may not be observable in life, it still exists in the larger sense, though perhaps invisible in the material world. This lends some credence as to why somebody needs God even if they're living a fabulously awesome life on earth.

Another thing: Hinduism, however good its theology, has an insanely impractical cosmology. Like for example "The eight armed blue guy slew the demon, carved out his entrails to form the Himalayan mountain range". Not an actual Hindu idea but it's often something as zany as this, something thoroughly incompatible with our modern scientific understanding of the world.


How do you answer to this?
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@Swagnarok
Nice post Swag.
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@Swagnarok
"Broadly defined". Theologies were naivety of understanding, and were inclusive of cosmology.
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@zedvictor4
The Ology

Not just any field of study, THE field of study.

The Ism

We are talking about The IS. The Ultimate Reality.



Theology is not a "were" or something past to the orthodox. Doctrine cannot be understood unless it is prayed. A 4th century Egyptian monk named Evagrius of Pontus said,

"If you are a theologian, you will pray truly. And if you pray truly, you are a theologian."

And though this was said a very long time ago, it is just as true today as it was then, for the God we know is a God of the living.



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@Swagnarok
(In response to post #6)

There's two main categories of things to look for in a religion:

1. Theology
2. Cosmology

Broadly defined, theology is the "core message" of a religion that distinguishes it from other belief systems. "Worship Vishnu" as opposed to "Worship Zeus" does not count as such. Rather, that would count as a cosmological (again, broadly defined) detail. Cosmology entails the name and physical description of deity, the history of what that deity did, and so on. It entails a description of a Universe rife with supernatural elements.

Christianity has a truly excellent theology, universal in scope, answering the most important questions in life.
For example: "I've done some really crummy things in life, or at least had really bad and inexcusable thoughts. People in general think I'm a good guy but I don't feel like that's really the case. Assuming a moral Universe, is there some kind of cosmic consequence for my underlying bad nature?"
Indian religions (and to be clear, there is no unity in these either) assume rather that "Life is inherently full of suffering" and (in Hinduism) bad karma is the reason. This begs the question, of course: If we were originally of a pure divine essence, did that pure divine essence commit sin?
In addition, "Life has more suffering than not" is a generalization which obviously isn't always true. And yet the universal instinct of Indian religion is to find "liberation" from existence regardless of its conditions.
In Christianity, though the effects of individual sin may not be observable in life, it still exists in the larger sense, though perhaps invisible in the material world. This lends some credence as to why somebody needs God even if they're living a fabulously awesome life on earth.

Another thing: Hinduism, however good its theology, has an insanely impractical cosmology. Like for example "The eight armed blue guy slew the demon, carved out his entrails to form the Himalayan mountain range". Not an actual Hindu idea but it's often something as zany as this, something thoroughly incompatible with our modern scientific understanding of the world.


How do you answer to this?

The test for the pudding is in the eating.

Christianity as a religion has blood on its hands. 
As a theology it portrays the God of the bible as a genocidal lunatic.
it fails scientific scrutiny. Science, archeology demolishes the events of the bible such as the Exodus, Noah's flood and Jerico as totally fictional.
Jesus was rejected by the Jews the very people he was sent to save. The Romans crucified Jesus and to add insult to injury established The Roman Catholic Church to displace Judaism the religion that Jesus followed.
There  are 30,000 denominations of Christians because their religious leaders disagreed  with the interpretation of the Bible.
It is impossible to die for the sins of others. Human sacrifice was banned by the God of the Bible. Jesus was not sacrificed he was crucified. He was crucified for his own sins and accused of blasphemous lies and lunacy. Yet Christianity promotes the false teachings that dead Jews can forgive sins. That Jesus a Jew died for their sins.

Hinduism is a transcendental religion. It teaches spirituality and finds all life sacred. It has a God for every occasion exhibiting the omnipresence of God in everything created. You don't have  to search for God in Hinduism. He is everywhere and in everything created.
It is a religion of second chances. Forgiveness  is earned through Karna and cycle of rebirths and not dependent on killing or sacrificing Jews like Christian believe Jesus a Jew had to die for their sins. Hitler update the concept by exterminating 6 million Jews to absolve the growing population of Christian sinners.
Buddha achieved enlightenment in his life time. Jesus died a disillusioned man lamenting on the cross, My God, my God why have you forsaken me!
Hinduism is the original religion of the people  of India. Unlike Christianity which was an offshoot of Judaism the religion that Jesus followed.
Hindus have preserved the integrity of Hinduism and all its traditional requirement. 
Christianity had abandoned the commandments that were the foundation of its distinction from other religions after it broke away from its Judaism roots. In short Christianity is a bastardized version of Judaism the religion Jesus and his disciples followed.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.


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@Harikrish
Christianity as a religion has blood on its hands. 
In the broader sense, sure. Christianity is a religion and there have always been people willing to kill on account of religions. You really think there's never been a Muslim murdered by an angry Hindu? Or a Christian convert murdered by a local angry Hindu?
You do realize there's like 100-200 hundred million people in India who live their entire lives regarded as trash because their religion said they were born trash. It took Western (*cough* Christian *cough*) influences to formally abolish this perverse system but even today many Hindus take it seriously.


As a theology it portrays the God of the bible as a genocidal lunatic.


And I suppose the Hindu gods never killed anyone?


it fails scientific scrutiny. Science, archeology demolishes the events of the bible such as the Exodus, Noah's flood and Jerico as totally fictional.

And I suppose everything in Hindu scripture is scientifically accurate?


Jesus was rejected by the Jews

The Bible's pretty clear that people choose whether to accept or reject truth. The Jews rejected Jesus and that was their own failing.

the very people he was sent to save.

Yes and no. The Gospel was proclaimed "first to the Jews" but "then to the Gentiles". As a universally applicable narrative it would make no sense to offer salvation only to those members of a single small ethnic group.


The Romans crucified Jesus and to add insult to injury established The Roman Catholic Church to displace Judaism the religion that Jesus followed.

The church was institutionalized, yes. But Christianity was about 280 years old by this point.


There  are 30,000 denominations of Christians because their religious leaders disagreed  with the interpretation of the Bible.
This reflects the choices and shortcomings of people, not of God. At the same time, though, these "30,000 denominations" agree on 80-90% of stuff. The core doctrines of the Christian faith are accepted by all of these save maybe the Mormons and similar fringe groups.


It is impossible to die for the sins of others. 


Says who? You? You can't, sure. You're a fallible human being with your own sins to pay off. But God, without blemish, the Creator of the Universe? I don't see why not.
It's important to note also: there are varying interpretations of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. The common view is simple atonement, but in keeping with the larger Biblical narrative Jesus is also described as a conquering King who was mighty enough to redeem men from the hold of sin. The cross, while atoning, also served to demonstrate God's infinite power and love.


Human sacrifice was banned by the God of the Bible.
Jesus is God, not a mere man.
Also, what do you think God meant? "Do not murder people/needlessly throw away their lives in vile pagan rituals" or "I will arbitrarily limit myself from accomplishing what I seek to accomplish, the redemption of humanity, because that interpretation of my words is the one that will make some smug guy on the internet thousands of years later sound right"?
Anyone can do what you're doing: take the words of a religious text and twist them to mean things the original author never had in mind. The fact that it is grammatically possible to so twist words does not in itself discredit anything whatsoever. It merely reflects limitations of human communication. Otherwise, anyone could do the same to Hindu texts and thereby discredit Hinduism.


Jesus was not sacrificed he was crucified.
So they tried to seize Him, but no one laid a hand of Him, because His hour had not yet come.

(John 7:30)

"Put back your sword," Jesus said to him. "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?

(Matthew 26:52-54)

So Pilate said to him, "Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.

(John 19:10-11)


Yup, sounds rather voluntary to me.
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@Harikrish
Hinduism is a transcendental religion. It teaches spirituality and finds all life sacred. It has a God for every occasion exhibiting the omnipresence of God in everything created. You don't have  to search for God in Hinduism. He is everywhere and in everything created.

So you take the Hindu gods to be allegorical for an omnipresent divinity? Why go through all that trouble just to say something Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have always taken for granted (that God is omnipresent)? What makes Hinduism special, in that sense? The only thing I can think of is the Hindu claim that all of the nature gods are real, which makes Hinduism little different from various other tribal mythologies.


It is a religion of second chances. Forgiveness  is earned through Karna and cycle of rebirths


Okay...? One problem with this is, while Hinduism accepts an eternal soul, that soul evidently has little control over what the mortal body does. So there is no way to remember the sins of a past life, and yet you're punished for them anyway through bad karma in the next life. What if you were a bad guy in your past lives? For all practical intents and purposes you're a different person now from the one who did those things back then but you're being punished anyway.

and not dependent on killing or sacrificing Jews like Christian believe Jesus a Jew had to die for their sins.


This is a comical and absurd misrepresentation of the Gospel but whatever.


My God, my God why have you forsaken me!

This is also a part of Christian doctrine: that as Jesus took on the sins of the world, God the Father, perfectly holy and therefore having nothing to do with sin, had to turn His face away.
Also, Jesus's last words were "It is finished". Not "My life is finished" or "Oh crap what did I do to get myself in this pickle" but "It is finished". What was finished? His divine mission of redeeming humanity through His death.


Hinduism is the original religion of the people

So is every tribal mythology. Are you now going to tell me that every tribal mythology is true in content?


Hindus have preserved the integrity of Hinduism and all its traditional requirement.


So has Christianity. The OT of the Jews is the one that Christians use. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Christian NT canon has been the same for 2,000 years. A first century (that is, within 70 or fewer years of Jesus's ministry) Christian document called the Didache said things that were in line with mainstream Christian teaching that Christians today hold true. There is no evidence whatsoever of a "corruption" of the faith, save in the lives of individual believers who choose to persist in sin and heresy.


Christianity had abandoned the commandments that were the foundation of its distinction from other religions after it broke away from its Judaism roots.

Nope. Jesus regularly quoted the Old Testament to support His claims. It was the mainstream Jewish establishment that got it wrong, and it was Jewish individuals who were the first to believe in His Gospel and in the correct interpretation of the old writings as illuminated by His coming.
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@Swagnarok
Christianity as a religion has blood on its hands.
In the broader sense, sure. Christianity is a religion and there have always been people willing to kill on account of religions. You really think there's never been a Muslim murdered by an angry Hindu? Or a Christian convert murdered by a local angry Hindu?
You do realize there's like 100-200 hundred million people in India who live their entire lives regarded as trash because their religion said they were born trash. It took Western (*cough* Christian *cough*) influences to formally abolish this perverse system but even today many Hindus take it seriously.
The caste system is a social construct better known as division of labour. No one wants someone who cleans toilets to be his dentist or cook his meals. 

Christianity As a theology portrays the God of the bible as a genocidal lunatic.


And I suppose the Hindu gods never killed anyone?
No genocide found in Hindu sacred books.

The bible fails scientific scrutiny. Science, archeology demolishes the events of the bible such as the Exodus, Noah's flood and Jerico as totally fictional.

And I suppose everything in Hindu scripture is scientifically accurate?
Einstein was a Vedantist.

Jesus was rejected by the Jews

The Bible's pretty clear that people choose whether to accept or reject truth. The Jews rejected Jesus and that was their own failing.

the very people he was sent to save.

Yes and no. The Gospel was proclaimed "first to the Jews" but "then to the Gentiles". As a universally applicable narrative it would make no sense to offer salvation only to those members of a single small ethnic group.


The Romans crucified Jesus and to add insult to injury established The Roman Catholic Church to displace Judaism the religion that Jesus followed.

The church was institutionalized, yes. But Christianity was about 280 years old by this point.
There was no church or temple by 70AD.
"World's first Christian church found in Jordan. Built in 230 AD, Saint Georgeous is believed to be the oldest “proper” church in the world. Archaeologists say they have evidence suggesting the church sheltered the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ."


There  are 30,000 denominations of Christians because their religious leaders disagreed  with the interpretation of the Bible.
This reflects the choices and shortcomings of people, not of God. At the same time, though, these "30,000 denominations" agree on 80-90% of stuff. The core doctrines of the Christian faith are accepted by all of these save maybe the Mormons and similar fringe groups.
This proves the  study of the bible divides people.

It is impossible to die for the sins of others.


Says who? You? You can't, sure. You're a fallible human being with your own sins to pay off. But God, without blemish, the Creator of the Universe? I don't see why not.
It's important to note also: there are varying interpretations of what Jesus accomplished on the cross. The common view is simple atonement, but in keeping with the larger Biblical narrative Jesus is also described as a conquering King who was mighty enough to redeem men from the hold of sin. The cross, while atoning, also served to demonstrate God's infinite power and love.


Human sacrifice was banned by the God of the Bible.


Jesus is God, not a mere man.
Also, what do you think God meant? "Do not murder people/needlessly throw away their lives in vile pagan rituals" or "I will arbitrarily limit myself from accomplishing what I seek to accomplish, the redemption of humanity, because that interpretation of my words is the one that will make some smug guy on the internet thousands of years later sound right"?
Anyone can do what you're doing: take the words of a religious text and twist them to mean things the original author never had in mind. The fact that it is grammatically possible to so twist words does not in itself discredit anything whatsoever. It merely reflects limitations of human communication. Otherwise, anyone could do the same to Hindu texts and thereby discredit Hinduism.
Jesus was asked to prove he was God at his trial. Jesus failed to convince anyone which was why he was crucified. Who would have dared to crucify God if they were convinced. Even his miracles did not impress the people. They still wanted to stone him.

Jesus was not sacrificed he was crucified.

So they tried to seize Him, but no one laid a hand of Him, because His hour had not yet come.

(John 7:30)

"Put back your sword," Jesus said to him. "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?

(Matthew 26:52-54)

So Pilate said to him, "Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.

(John 19:10-11)


Yup, sounds rather voluntary to me.

Jesus was clueless and helpless. He could carry his own cross and need help. He couldn't climb down from the cross when he was asked to prove he was God.
Only Christians want to believe a Jew named Jesus died for their sins. The thought is very appealing to 2 billion Christian sinners.
it even appealed to Jesus till he snapped out of his delusion on the cross and lamented.

My God! my God,  why have you forsaken me?
 
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@Harikrish
Buddha achieved enlightenment in his life time.

Funny that you should mention Buddha, whose teachings were eventually rejected in most of the Indian subcontinent. His ideas fell outside of mainstream Hindu thought, making him a schismatic. If you embrace Buddha then your relation to Hinduism is that of a Christian to Judaism.
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@Swagnarok
Harikrish wrote: Buddha achieved enlightenment in his life time.

Funny that you should mention Buddha, whose teachings were eventually rejected in most of the Indian subcontinent. His ideas fell outside of mainstream Hindu thought, making him a schismatic. If you embrace Buddha then your relation to Hinduism is that of a Christian to Judaism.

Buddha was a reformist. He wanted a practical goal for the average person without wading in esoteric sctiptures. The KISS method works for some people. Buddha shrunk the goals of Hinduism to a few practical paths that one could follow to attain spirituals bliss Nirvana)

Some even in its reduced form Hinduism was successful. Buddhism is one good example.


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@Swagnarok
I would like to point out that Jesus was referencing a certain psalm when he said "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me".

If you read/hear the entire psalm, it becomes a lot clearer why Jesus felt the need to reference it.




[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]]

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."




Mopac
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@Harikrish
Jesus Christ said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God."


The noble eightfold path is really a guideline for heart purification, and not dissimilar from historical Christian ascetic discipline.



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The God you were taught to accept, that you think you know.

And prayers you were taught to utter.

Just as Evagrius was taught to utter.

And other people were taught differently.
ethang5
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To better answer the OP's question, we need an opinion from first an Indian, and then a Hindu. Second, he should be educated and intelligent enough to make people not familiar with Hindu custom and culture understand it.

That person is...

Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar (14 April 1891 – 6 December 1956), popularly known as Babasaheb, was an Indian jurist, economist, politician and social reformer who inspired the Dalit Buddhist movement and campaigned against social discrimination towards Untouchables (Dalits), while also supporting the rights of women and labour.

He was Independent India's first law minister, the principal architect of the Constitution of India and a founding father of the Republic of India.

Ambedkar was a prolific student, earning doctorates in economics from both Columbia University and the London School of Economics, and gained a reputation as a scholar for his research in law, economics and political science.

In his early career he was an economist, professor, and lawyer. His later life was marked by his political activities; he became involved in campaigning and negotiations for India's independence, publishing journals, advocating political rights and social freedom for Dalits, and contributing significantly to the establishment of the state of India. In 1956 he converted to Buddhism, initiating mass conversions of Dalits.

On 9 May, 1927, he presented the thesis paper Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development before a seminar conducted by the anthropologist Alexander Goldenweiser.


The caste problem is a vast one, both theoretically and practically. Practically, it is an institution that portends tremendous consequences. It is a local problem, but one capable of much wider mischief,...
....if Hindus migrate to other regions on earth, Indian caste would become a world problem."

Indeed the ideal Hindu must be like a rat living in his own hole, refusing to have any contact with others. There is an utter lack among the Hindus of what the sociologists call "consciousness of kind." There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation.

The effect of caste on the ethics of the Hindus is simply deplorable. Caste has killed public spirit. Caste has destroyed the sense of public charity. Caste has made public opinion impossible. A Hindu's public is his caste. His responsibility is only to his caste. His loyalty is restricted only to his caste. Virtue has become caste-ridden, and morality has become caste-bound. There is no sympathy for the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious. There is no charity to the needy. Suffering as such calls for no response. There is charity, but it begins with the caste and ends with the caste. There is sympathy, but not for men of other castes.

A Hindu is born in a caste and he dies as a member of that caste. There is no Hindu without caste, cannot escape caste and being bounded by caste from birth to death he becomes subject to social regulations and traditions of the caste over which he has no control.

Not having conscience, the Hindu has no such thing in him as righteous indignation against the inequities and injustices from which the Untouchable has been suffering. He sees no wrong in these inequities
and injustices and refuses to budge. By his absence of conscience the Hindu is a great obstacle in the path of the removal of untouchability.

Untouchability may be a misfortune to the Untouchables. But there is no doubt that it is a good fortune to the Hindus. It gives them a class which they can look down upon.

The Hindus do not want a system in which nobody will be anybody. They also do not want a system in which everybody may be somebody. They want a system in which they will be somebodies and others will be nobodies. The Untouchables are nobodies.

This makes the Hindus some bodies. The system of untouchability sustains the natural pride of the Hindus and makes them feel as well as look big.

I have, therefore, no hesitation in saying that such a religion must be destroyed, and I say there is nothing irreligious in working for the destruction of such a religion. Indeed I hold that it is your bounden duty to tear off the mask, to remove the misrepresentation that is caused by misnaming this Law as Religion. This is an essential step for you. Once you clear the minds of the people of this misconception, and enable them to realize that what they are told is Religion is not Religion, but that it is really Law, you will be in a position to urge its amendment or abolition.

This great Indian and Hindu would answer the question of the OP with a resounding, "No".
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@ethang5
To better answer the OP's question, we need an opinion from first an Indian, and then a Hindu. Second, he should be educated and intelligent enough to make people not familiar with Hindu custom and culture understand it.

That person is...

Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar (14 April 1891 – 6 December 1956), popularly known as Babasaheb, was an Indian jurist, economist, politician and social reformer who inspired the Dalit Buddhist movement and campaigned against social discrimination towards Untouchables (Dalits), while also supporting the rights of women and labour.

He was Independent India's first law minister, the principal architect of the Constitution of India and a founding father of the Republic of India.

Ambedkar was a prolific student, earning doctorates in economics from both Columbia University and the London School of Economics, and gained a reputation as a scholar for his research in law, economics and political science.

In his early career he was an economist, professor, and lawyer. His later life was marked by his political activities; he became involved in campaigning and negotiations for India's independence, publishing journals, advocating political rights and social freedom for Dalits, and contributing significantly to the establishment of the state of India. In 1956 he converted to Buddhism, initiating mass conversions of Dalits.

On 9 May, 1927, he presented the thesis paper Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development before a seminar conducted by the anthropologist Alexander Goldenweiser.


The caste problem is a vast one, both theoretically and practically. Practically, it is an institution that portends tremendous consequences. It is a local problem, but one capable of much wider mischief,...
....if Hindus migrate to other regions on earth, Indian caste would become a world problem."

Indeed the ideal Hindu must be like a rat living in his own hole, refusing to have any contact with others. There is an utter lack among the Hindus of what the sociologists call "consciousness of kind." There is no Hindu consciousness of kind. In every Hindu the consciousness that exists is the consciousness of his caste. That is the reason why the Hindus cannot be said to form a society or a nation.

The effect of caste on the ethics of the Hindus is simply deplorable. Caste has killed public spirit. Caste has destroyed the sense of public charity. Caste has made public opinion impossible. A Hindu's public is his caste. His responsibility is only to his caste. His loyalty is restricted only to his caste. Virtue has become caste-ridden, and morality has become caste-bound. There is no sympathy for the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious. There is no charity to the needy. Suffering as such calls for no response. There is charity, but it begins with the caste and ends with the caste. There is sympathy, but not for men of other castes.

A Hindu is born in a caste and he dies as a member of that caste. There is no Hindu without caste, cannot escape caste and being bounded by caste from birth to death he becomes subject to social regulations and traditions of the caste over which he has no control.

Not having conscience, the Hindu has no such thing in him as righteous indignation against the inequities and injustices from which the Untouchable has been suffering. He sees no wrong in these inequities
and injustices and refuses to budge. By his absence of conscience the Hindu is a great obstacle in the path of the removal of untouchability.

Untouchability may be a misfortune to the Untouchables. But there is no doubt that it is a good fortune to the Hindus. It gives them a class which they can look down upon.

The Hindus do not want a system in which nobody will be anybody. They also do not want a system in which everybody may be somebody. They want a system in which they will be somebodies and others will be nobodies. The Untouchables are nobodies.

This makes the Hindus some bodies. The system of untouchability sustains the natural pride of the Hindus and makes them feel as well as look big.

I have, therefore, no hesitation in saying that such a religion must be destroyed, and I say there is nothing irreligious in working for the destruction of such a religion. Indeed I hold that it is your bounden duty to tear off the mask, to remove the misrepresentation that is caused by misnaming this Law as Religion. This is an essential step for you. Once you clear the minds of the people of this misconception, and enable them to realize that what they are told is Religion is not Religion, but that it is really Law, you will be in a position to urge its amendment or abolition.

This great Indian and Hindu would answer the question of the OP with a resounding, "No".

Nothing in your post or link points to religion or Hinduism specifically as the cause for the caste system in India. Even the author acknowledges it developed as a social construct surrounding endogamy "the custom of marrying only within the limits of a local community, clan, or tribe." and spread. 
But there are advantages in the caste system when seen as a division of labour. No one wants to have someone who cleans toilets to be his dentist or cook his food. The thought is repulsive enough. 

But African slavery is a direct product of Christianity. Christians justified slavery as biblical. Genesis 9,10.
The role of Christianity in African slavery is rather unique. Most religions allowed slavery based on economic and monetary reasons. But slaves were never targeted because of their skin colour alone. This all changed when Christians justified their targeting of Africans based on scriptures and skin colour. The continued discrimination of Africans are purely on skin colour.
ethang5
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Nothing in your post or link points to religion or Hinduism specifically as the cause for the caste system in India.
Yet the authors conclusion was to call for the destruction of Hinduism as the originator and sustainer of the vile, slave making caste system.

But there are advantages in the caste system when seen as a division of labour. 
There are advantages in the Nazi system too when seen as a purification module.

Correctly your law minister said about you - "Virtue has become caste-ridden, and morality has become caste-bound. There is no sympathy for the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious. There is no charity to the needy. Suffering as such calls for no response."

Luckily India saw no advantages and outlawed the caste system. But by [your] absence of conscience the Hindu is a great obstacle in the path of the removal of untouchability.

No one wants to have someone who cleans toilets to be his dentist or cook his food. The thought is repulsive enough. 
Lol. First you restrict them to poverty, and then blame and punish them for being poor! Just as your law minister said, "The Hindus do not want a system in which nobody will be anybody. They also do not want a system in which everybody may be somebody. They want a system in which they will be somebodies and others will be nobodies. 

But African slavery is a direct product of Christianity.
Your law minister spoke about the Hindus need to have a class "lower" than he, "It gives them a class which they can look down upon. I guess that must be why you are now trying to compare. The caste system has made you need to compare everything as if the world was a caste system.

I'd rather stay on topic. Christianity has nothing to do with Hinduism or African slavery. The OP asked if Hinduism was a religion. Ambedkar an Indian, a Hindu, and an intellectual did not think so.

He called Hinduism evil and advocated its destruction.
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Don't you two assholes have an entire other website dedicated to your pointless rivalry? Why move it here? 
Harikrish
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@ethang5
Nothing in your post or link points to religion or Hinduism specifically as the cause for the caste system in India.
Yet the authors conclusion was to call for the destruction of Hinduism as the originator and sustainer of the vile, slave making caste system.
You are lying. The author believe the caste  system is occupational and instutionalized. Nowhere does he blame Hinduism as the cause. It is a social construct attributed to endogamy, occupational and institutionalized divisions.

But there are advantages in the caste system when seen as a division of labour.
There are advantages in the Nazi system too when seen as a purification module.
The caste system is not  a purification or ethnic cleansing system like the Nazi system was. You are poorly informed.

Correctly your law minister said about you - "Virtue has become caste-ridden, and morality has become caste-bound. There is no sympathy for the deserving. There is no appreciation of the meritorious. There is no charity to the needy. Suffering as such calls for no response."

Luckily India saw no advantages and outlawed the caste system. But by [your] absence of conscience the Hindu is a great obstacle in the path of the removal of untouchability.
Again the author does not say Hinduism is the cause for the caste system. Whereas Christianity is directly responsible for African slavery.


No one wants to have someone who cleans toilets to be his dentist or cook his food. The thought is repulsive enough.
Lol. First you restrict them to poverty, and then blame and punish them for being poor! Just as your law minister said, "The Hindus do not want a system in which nobody will be anybody. They also do not want a system in which everybody may be somebody. They want a system in which they will be somebodies and others will be nobodies.
Cleaning toilets is not a question of poverty. It is a question of hygiene. A person who cleans toilets should not be putting his hand in people's mouths eg dentist or in their food eg cooks.

Infact the same toilet cleaners are becoming millionaires because they are becoming large contractors. Odd that you would talk about poverty when you confessed you are a slumdog slum dweller living in slum city Accra Ghana one of the dirtiest countries in Africa.

But African slavery is a direct product of Christianity.
Your law minister spoke about the Hindus need to have a class "lower" than he, "It gives them a class which they can look down upon. I guess that must be why you are now trying to compare. The caste system has made you need to compare everything as if the world was a caste system.
Britain, France has a class system. America has a colour system. They are just different names for the same social divisions. 

I'd rather stay on topic. Christianity has nothing to do with Hinduism or African slavery. The OP asked if Hinduism was a religion. Ambedkar an Indian, a Hindu, and an intellectual did not think so.

He called Hinduism evil and advocated its destruction.

Please show me where in your link did he call Hinduism evil and advocated its destruction or I will put this as another lie from a pathological liar.

Christianity had everything to do with African slavery. 
The role of Christianity in African slavery is rather unique. Most religions allowed slavery based on economic and monetary reasons. But slaves were never targeted because of their skin colour alone. This all changed when Christians justified the  targeting of Africans based on scriptures and skin colour. The continued discriminination of Africans is purely  on skin colour and their negroid appearance.

You said you live in Africa where slavery is still practiced. One can still buy African slaves in Libya for $400 each. All this on a continent where 80% of Africans are Christians.

Did  you not also confess you are just a poor African slave, remember?
ethang5
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...the authors conclusion was to call for the destruction of Hinduism as the originator and sustainer of the vile, slave making caste system.

You are lying. Please show me where in your link did he call Hinduism evil and advocated its destruction

I have, therefore, no hesitation in saying that such a religion must be destroyed, and I say there is nothing irreligious in working for the destruction of such a religion.

The caste system is not  a purification or ethnic cleansing system like the Nazi system was. 
It is a slave making system like the Nazi system was, we know.

Christianity had everything to do with African slavery.
Perhaps, but the topic here is Hinduism, and the OP's qurstion whether its a religion, not Christianity or African slavery.
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You said you live in Africa where slavery is still practiced. One can still buy African slaves in Libya for $400 each. All this on a continent where 80% of Africans are Christians.

Did  you not also confess you are just a poor African slave, remember?

aw shit, here we go again
ethang5
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Yet the authors conclusion was to call for the destruction of Hinduism as the originator and sustainer of the vile, slave making caste system.

You are lying. Please show me where in your link did he call Hinduism evil and advocated its destruction

I have, therefore, no hesitation in saying that such a religion must be destroyed, and I say there is nothing irreligious in working for the destruction of such a religion.

Christianity had everything to do with African slavery.
So you claim, but African slavery is not the topic here, Hinduism is.
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-->@ludofl3x

You know Hari is a racist who stalks me. Is your solution that I post nowhere?

I have a racist chasing me around the board, whom I oppose, and to you its a "pointless rivalry"? God knows what you would have made of MLK and the people opposing him.

Just so you know, I was a member here before you were, and I have posted nothing in this thread worthy of being insulted. 

I addressed the OP's question without insult or vitriol to anyone. Here is a trick I have with posts I don't like that may be useful to you. Ready? I ignore them.