"the greater good"

Author: 3RU7AL

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#31
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
individual freedom stops when it interferes another's individual freedom, this has always been so.  Criminals pay a price for their choice.  "greater good" is removing that choice.
standards of evidence?  I mean I just said how the "studies" on cholesterol were all faked, bs, made up.  that's one of many examples.
For me the pro climate change arguments have equal if not less credible than the anti.  Perhaps more evidence will change that but I haven't seen any yet.  Al Gore was so convincing and positive, see how well that went for him.
#32
Ramshutu
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I chose not to take what others say on faith, you are free to do so, scientist have been wrong even to the death of others, so believe and trust in them if you will, I'm not so easily convinced.
He says writing on a computer in a country who’s technological development and supremacy owes itself to science.

Your car is safe?
This food is safe to eat.
This water is safe to drink.

The amount of stuff you have to take on faith in the modern world is staggering, and you cannot exist in it without taking things on faith.

The choice is simply who you have faith in.


The main issue though is the false dichotomy - you’re vehemently stating we shouldn’t trust those pesky scientists, they could be lying: whilst believing the anti-climate chance lobbyists and energy companies who have been funding the counter narrative.

Why are the energy lobbyists and Republican polticians more trustworthy than the tens of thousands of climate scientists that have worked over the last 40 years?






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#33
3RU7AL
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@Ramshutu
If your willing to believe that the entire scientific community has been engaged in a massive orchestrated shill effort for the last 40 years; but the large energy companies that have been actively funding anti climate change politics, studies, and attempts to change public perceptions in order to oppose and stifle policies that harm their bottom line are acting out of the goodness of their heart, then I have some magic beans to sell you.
acting out of the goodness of their heart

RICH = GOOD
#34
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
For me the pro climate change arguments have equal if not less credible than the anti.  Perhaps more evidence will change that but I haven't seen any yet.  Al Gore was so convincing and positive, see how well that went for him.

Are there any missing links of evidence that might convince you?  Usually the articles are awful.  There's too much writing out there that doesn't offer an explanation proving a greenhouse effect in a laboratory setting, that it is significant at atmospheric levels, and how we know that the additional material is mainly caused by man.  They also tend not to explain how our global measurements were obtained very well.  The research on that particular topic is all fairly recent, so how many samples do we really have?
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#35
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
individual freedom stops when it interferes another's individual freedom, this has always been so.  Criminals pay a price for their choice.  "greater good" is removing that choice.
I'm not sure why you would think that individual criminals should be stripped of their "freedom" (for "the greater good") but corporations should be allowed to run rampant.

standards of evidence?  I mean I just said how the "studies" on cholesterol were all faked, bs, made up. 
BY THE SUGAR INDUSTRY.

that's one of many examples.
For me the pro climate change arguments have equal if not less credible than the anti. 
You can't eat food that grows next to refineries and you can't eat fish from polluted lakes.

Let's say for the sake-of-argument, that "climate change" is fake.

Do you ignore the data that shows people who live near free-ways have a significantly higher chance of developing asthma?

Perhaps more evidence will change that but I haven't seen any yet.  Al Gore was so convincing and positive, see how well that went for him.
What's your "worst-case-scenario" if everyone gets on-board the "climate change" railroad?
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#36
3RU7AL
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@Snoopy
The research on that particular topic is all fairly recent, so how many samples do we really have?
ICE CORES = LITERALLY MILLIONS OF YEARS OF DATA.
#37
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@Ramshutu
Your car is safe?
This food is safe to eat.
This water is safe to drink.
no I wear a seat belt and drive carefully
food safe?  if it's grown by me sure, perhaps organic but otherwise, not so much unless you like a side of roundup and antibiotics with your meal
is fluoride safe?  why don't I have a choice in that?  Ask people of Flint about their water.
do not mistake faith with no practical choice

I would believe those who actually do something practical and effective to ensure clean water and air.
Do you think the water and air is as clean/good as it could or should be?  If not why not?



#38
Greyparrot
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@Ramshutu
If your willing to believe that the entire scientific community has been engaged in a massive orchestrated shill effort for the last 40 years...
Most scientists are political scientists paid by the government to reach whatever conclusion the government wants. Especially the AOC "the world is going to end in 8 years" crowd.

Ask that group of scientists exactly who pays them to do what they do. Do you even know?


Consensus isn't just that group of scientists that supports your narrative of a tyrannical "benevolent" government suppressing freedom.
#39
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Al Gore recently purchased a multi-million dollar home on the beach with money he collected as a shill for the green energy industrial complex.
#40
Ramshutu
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Well done! You ignored the main point right under the point you decided to respond to.

You seem to have issues trusting scientists - despite the entire modern world being built on science - and have no problem believing groups that are even less trustworthy.

As I said: you have no compunction putting faith in other people that you have to take on their word. You have faith that the wheels won’t fall of your car, and the plane won’t fall out of the sky, your putting your faith in the engineering quality of the specific vehicle you own. You have to put faith in your seat belt not being poorly designed, or part of a bad batch.

Unless you live in a cave, you’re required to trust and put faith in the positions and opinions of others on every level where you have clear choices to do otherwise.


Now, as you pointed out, perfectly : you seem to trust the conclusions of the scientific community about the effects of lead, that there’s possibly traces of roundup in your cereal, that flints water supply has high levels of lead in it.


You're not being skeptical - simply picking and choosing which set of scientists you would inherently trust based on whether their conclusions agree with you.
#41
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@Ramshutu
You seem to have issues trusting scientists - despite the entire modern world being built on science - and have no problem believing groups that are even less trustworthy.

I trust scientists who are not funded by the government.

And also ones that don't have a monopoly on armageddon scenarios.
#42
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@Ramshutu
I know how my car works, and if someone messes with the wheels, I retorque them. 
#43
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@Greyparrot
If your willing to believe that the entire scientific community has been engaged in a massive orchestrated shill effort for the last 40 years; but the large energy companies that have been actively funding anti climate change politics, studies, and attempts to change public perceptions in order to oppose and stifle policies that harm their bottom line are acting out of the goodness of their heart, then I have some magic beans to sell you.
Im assuming you missed the part in bold; as it seems to have fallen of your reply.

You appear to be implying that because there is some highly speculative theoretical (but highly unlikely) possibility that some near impossible and convoluted conspiracy among all scientists - that the best course of action is to instead believe the politicians and political parties that have been crafting a political anti climate change narrative that isn’t based on science and is largely funded by billion dollar industries who stand to lose money if climate change were to have been enacted.

This is just plain nonsense.

But nice trolling comparing religious nutjob theories with the broad and general consensus of thousands of individuals scientists who have studied the climate and potential outcomes of climate change.
I’m assuming that you also magically forgot about this part of my response.

It seems that you were comparing religiously based doomsday cults and beliefs, with the generalized consensus of science based on evidence, studies and practical investigation and concluding the consequences of climate change will be highly damaging to humanity and the economies of the world.

I mean, they’re obviously not the same thing; which would make your comparison, either substantially ignorant for not realizing the difference, or brazenly dishonest due to you knowing there was a difference between the two and pretending like there wasn’t.


#44
Ramshutu
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@Greyparrot
I trust scientists who are not funded by the government.

And also ones that don't have a monopoly on armageddon scenarios.
Except - given the links you cited - they make statements that fit into your broad narrative: in which case it seems you find their conclusions more than adequate!

#45
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
you are conflating local pollution with climate change, as I said cleaning up our own backyards I'm for, no one can honestly argue we shouldn't have the cleanest air and water possible.  Given the biggest polluters on earth we have little to no influence over.  So while we are chasing our tails debating climate change our own yards still go unattended.  Doesn't matter the world is going to end in what, 10 years now?  boy who cried climate change.

the fda clears those studies along with drugs later found to actually be harmful, thalidomide?  in government we trust,  not!
blame the companies if you like, they do share in it, but ultimately they are given the green light by.....guess who.
#46
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@Ramshutu
well done you didn't read or understand my #31 post, lame attempt at the "gotcha" and I thought such a thing was beneath you, guess I was wrong.
#47
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@Greyparrot
Al Gore recently purchased a multi-million dollar home on the beach with money he collected as a shill for the green energy industrial complex.
The established companies are diversified.  Look up some of the heavy hitters producing the country's electricity and you'll probably see wind and natural gas operations among their other (aging) facilities.
#48
Ramshutu
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
By post 31, I presume that you mean the post that wasn’t addressed to me? For which I am presuming you’re expecting me to read?

No - this is not a Gotcha, I am not even specifically clear on how you think that or why; all I can see is an argument that doesn’t fully make sense, that is dubious at best and leads to fairly nonsensical conclusions.


You are forced to trust people; and the very fact that in post 31 you claimed you found the anti climate change more credible than the pro climate chance arguments essentially proves my point: that you’re implicitly trusting one particular side over the other. That their data is as valid, that their conclusions are not distorted or manipulated, and that their points are rooted in substantiated evidence.

And that’s the issue: someone is effectively lying to you on purpose: it can either be the handful of politicians and scientists being funded by an industry that stands to substantially lose out of such policies are enacted: or the large volume of loosely affiliated scientists funded by a vastly disparate set of sources, in multiple countries over the last few decades.


Anyone who doesn’t conclude the former are much more likely to be lying to you over the latter, are the reason Nigerian email scammers still send out emails.



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#49
3RU7AL
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I would believe those who actually do something practical and effective to ensure clean water and air.
Do you think the water and air is as clean/good as it could or should be?  If not why not?
The biggest polluters give the largest campaign contributions.
#50
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@Ramshutu
"You are forced to trust people"  no, I am forced to determine if the amount of risk is worth it to me or not, HUGE difference.  trust =/= cost/benefit

I'm "implicitly trusting one particular side over the other."  oh wow ok if you say so, well your mind is made up with your assumptions, think what you will, have a nice day.
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#51
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
Al Gore recently purchased a multi-million dollar home on the beach with money he collected as a shill for the green energy industrial complex.
Are you kidding me?  How many multi-million dollar homes have been purchased by oil industry executives?

Does RICH = LIAR?

Also, which specific companies do you believe are members of the nefarious "green energy industrial complex"?

Oh noes!!  LED lightbulbs?!?!  The horror!!!!!
#52
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@Ramshutu
Im assuming you missed the part in bold; as it seems to have fallen of your reply.


As you seem to ignore the corporate green energy shills like Al Gore who purchase mansions on the beach.
Fear-mongering is a big business.

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#53
3RU7AL
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@Snoopy
The established companies are diversified.  Look up some of the heavy hitters producing the country's electricity and you'll probably see wind and natural gas operations among their other (aging) facilities.
Good point.  They're playing both sides.
#54
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@3RU7AL
You're missing the Irony.

Al Gore made all of his money as a prophet claiming the beaches were going to be underwater within our lifetimes.
#55
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
The biggest polluters give the largest campaign contributions.
no doubt about that, state and local governments have more control of what happens in their state, or they should have anyway.  I see no interest, concern or care about local pollution past or present, not to any real extent anyway.  Yet I'm to be concerned about this global cataclysm that I should stop driving my car and let cows go extinct.  Does this really seem logical to you?
#56
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@Snoopy
They are, but the current sustainable green energy industries are consumer-driven and not government-driven.
#57
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@Ramshutu
Except - given the links you cited - they make statements that fit into your broad narrative: in which case it seems you find their conclusions more than adequate!


Your arguments would come across as less hysterical and emotional than baseline if you ended your sentences with a period.

Jus sayin...
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#58
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
You're missing the Irony. 

Al Gore made all of his money as a prophet claiming the beaches were going to be underwater within our lifetimes.
That just makes them more precious.

Should I not visit a glacier because it's melting?
#59
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@3RU7AL
do you find the alamarist who take private jets instead of public or even ground transportation hypocritical?  Some take rather short trips and have been called out for in, even the likes of the brain trust AOC but they all just dismiss it, pish posh, do as I say.....  Why should I take any of them seriously?  Do you see how convoluted this has become with everyone jumping on board?  this is why crying wolf is so applicipable.
#60
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@3RU7AL
Lol, the question is would you build a house on it as a long term investment.