DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM

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Theists love to debate using DEISTIC arguments.

The "intelligent-design" case is the most prominent example of this.

The "logically necessary" prime-mover/sustainer is another.

**But theists are unable to draw a straight line from DEISM to their specific god(s).**

Atheists often fight tooth-and-claw against these DEISTIC tactics, but I would suggest they should stop fighting and embrace DEISM.

Because DEISTIC gods are functionally indistinguishable from no-god(s).

DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM.

Let's say, for example, that we found indisputable scientific evidence that life on planet Earth was created by Promethean gods.  Intelligently designed.

Clip of creation scene from "Prometheus" (2012), [LINK]

This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our daily lives.

This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our system of government, our laws, or our sense of morality.

Basically, we're back to square-one.

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@3RU7AL
The reason theists use deist arguments is because there is no evidence (outside of holy texts) of the existence of their particular god. 
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I don't have any argument against a deistic argument, because it just presumes "something." The arguments are usually like "well, I'm not sure how else it would happen that the universe would exist," to which atheism simply stops at "we don't know." Deism seems to add the argument from incredulity or argument from ignorance to this. To which I simply can say "well, I guess we disagree." I even grant this codntion in arguments, "something" started the universe, and no one as you point out can ever get from there to Jesus. They say they can, but they have never demonstrated it. 
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The Ultimate Reality is God.

You can go with that? Sure.

What we don't have in common is our relationship with God. 


Deism is simply the belief that God exists. This is nothing spectacular.


Sure, you could say that someone who can admit God exists and nothing else is functionally the same as an atheist. Just as you can say that a Christian who does not practice the Christian discipline is functionally the same as an atheist.


But here is the thing. A Deist is the opposite of an atheist. Deism is the belief that God exists. Atheism is denial of God's existence. 


My religion is love of The Truth. You know The Truth exists. Great. Love of The Truth is where the walk is.






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@Mopac
A theist is the denial of God's non-existence.

My religion is love of The Truth. You know The Truth exists. Great. Love of The Truth is where the walk is.

Love = Truth = Ultimate Reality = God

Anything else? You have certainly added another one yet to still justify anything without appealing to the other side. 
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@3RU7AL
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@3RU7AL

Theists love to debate using DEISTIC arguments.
Which theists "love" to use deistic arguments?

The "intelligent-design" case is the most prominent example of this.
Intelligent design is not a deistic argument. It was a concept purported by religious authorities for millennia, even polytheistic ones. Deism didn't emerge until after the "enlightenment."

The "logically necessary" prime-mover/sustainer is another.
That's not deistic at all. It would be "logically necessary" initial mover without the sustenance.

**But theists are unable to draw a straight line from DEISM to their specific god(s).**
Using deistic premises, sure. But then, Deism doesn't make any sense.

Atheists often fight tooth-and-claw against these DEISTIC tactics, but I would suggest they should stop fighting and embrace DEISM.

Because DEISTIC gods are functionally indistinguishable from no-god(s).
That's the reason it makes no sense.

DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM.
Insofar as they're both riddled with contradiction, yes.


Let's say, for example, that we found indisputable scientific evidence that life on planet Earth was created by Promethean gods.  Intelligently designed.

Clip of creation scene from "Prometheus" (2012), [LINK]

This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our daily lives.

This "fact" does absolutely nothing to inform our system of government, our laws, or our sense of morality.
In other words, have perspective. Good words by which to live.

@PressF4Respect:

The reason theists use deist arguments is because there is no evidence (outside of holy texts) of the existence of their particular god. 
You know there's no evidence? How? Please elaborate.

@ludofl3x:

I don't have any argument against a deistic argument, because it just presumes "something."
No, they presume God/Supreme Being.


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No, they presume God/Supreme Being.


They presume little g god, prime mover. Not Supreme Being necessarily, that seems to me imbued with other properties that aren't necessary, like supremacy, for the proposition of starting the universe. But now we're both arguing distinction without difference, I think. 
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Which theists "love" to use deistic arguments?
This guy, [LINK] 2 minute clip.

And this guy, [LINK] 3 minute clip.
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@Athias
Intelligent design is not a deistic argument. It was a concept purported by religious authorities for millennia, even polytheistic ones. Deism didn't emerge until after the "enlightenment."
Regardless of its origin and historical context, it remains an argument that supports DEISM exclusively.
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@Athias
The "logically necessary" prime-mover/sustainer is another.
That's not deistic at all. It would be "logically necessary" initial mover without the sustenance.
That's literally the ONLY claim DEISM makes.
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@Athias
DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM.
Insofar as they're both riddled with contradiction, yes.
Please explain.
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I don't have any argument against a deistic argument, because it just presumes "something."
No, they presume God/Supreme Being.
DEISM is basically an ontological argument that labels "whatever logically necessary thing(s)/force(s)/phenomenon(a)/NOUMENA made everything" as "god(s)".
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Deism seems to add the argument from incredulity or argument from ignorance to this.
Atheism is simply "without belief in god(s)".  NOT "there is/are no god(s)".  And probably "your particular god(s) is/are logically incoherent".

DEISM is simply "any god(s) that is/are indistinguishable from no-god(s) is/are just as likely as no-god(s)".
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@Athias
Show me one piece of evidence, which cannot be applied to any other deity, to prove the existence of a particular god of your choosing (assume that deism is proven without a shadow of a doubt).
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@Athias
#14 is what a Theistic Argument would be trying to answer in a nutshell.
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@ 3RU7AL:


This guy, [LINK] 2 minute clip.

And this guy, [LINK] 3 minute clip.

Those are not deistic arguments. First with Bill Stein, as Dawkins pointed out, he presumed a "who." He then uses the intelligent design argument to reveal Dawkins' blatant attempt at arguing from ignorance. Dinesh D'Souza, argues if anything, that the [deist rationale] originated with the ancient Hebrews. So it wouldn't be a deist argue more so than a Hebrew argument.Of course, he's wrong, as intelligent design can be traced as far back as the ancient Sumerians.

Regardless of its origin and historical context, it remains an argument that supports DEISM exclusively.
No, the origin does matter. Your accepting the intelligent design rationale for the deistic premise doesn't make intelligent design exclusively deistic.

That's literally the ONLY claim DEISM makes.
Deism posits a metaphysically transient entity with which man can neither interact nor perceive. Its only function, in a sense, was to initiate. It remains, according to Deists, a "non-interventionist."

Please explain.
Easy: if "God" is this metaphysically transient entity with which man can neither interact nor perceive, then how is it that they can render conclusions about the characteristics and functions of said God? Even if one were to simply extend the rationale of "everything must follow logic," this metaphysical entity would also have conform to this rationale. Hence, God, too, is confined to logic. Since man has the capacity for logic, man would also have to capacity to perceive God. And Deism argues that God cannot be perceived, acknowledged, etc.

As for Atheism, it posits that no God exist or that God does not exist. Now if one is going to take the route that Atheism is merely a "non-belief," than it's a non-belief with no substantial premise. If one can neither verify nor falsify the existence of God, then what is the basis of the non-belief? God's existence notwithstanding, atheists do not value arguments for God's existence. And this expressed often through emotion, not reason.

Atheism is simply "without belief in god(s)".  NOT "there is/are no god(s)".  And probably "your particular god(s) is/are logically incoherent".
If Atheism operated on its semantic description, it would be apathy or indifference. And regardless of your definitions, Atheism does posit that there are no Gods. It's the premise of your non belief; thus you saw fit to include "logically incoherent" which is tantamount to positing that God cannot "logically" exist.

DEISM is simply "any god(s) that is/are indistinguishable from no-god(s) is/are just as likely as no-god(s)".
That's not how they argue it, but your reduction does point out how nonsensical their rationale is. It's a sophistic attempt by Deists to conflate divinity with the Big Bang Theory.

@PressF4Respect:

Show me one piece of evidence, which cannot be applied to any other deity, to prove the existence of a particular god of your choosing (assume that deism is proven without a shadow of a doubt).
Why? Did I make the argument that there's "one piece of evidence"? Or did you assert "the reason theists use deist arguments is because there is no evidence"? You do not reconcile the burden of your assertion by placing the referendum on your opponent to falsify your argument. You posited the assertion; it's you who must support it. Once again, please elaborate.

@ludofl3x:

They presume little g god, prime mover. Not Supreme Being necessarily, that seems to me imbued with other properties that aren't necessary, like supremacy, for the proposition of starting the universe. But now we're both arguing distinction without difference, I think. 
I suppose. Contextually, Deism was a response to Western monotheistic religion, namely Christianity and Judaism. While God isn't "necessary," God is implicit.
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We come to know God through The Son, and by The Holy Spirit for in that The Father is revealed. Even deists can discern that God exists, and they can only do this because God is with us. If God was not with us, it would not be possible for them to witness that God exists. 

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"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
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@Athias
the reason theists use deist arguments is because there is no evidence
Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying. 

According to Merriam-Webster [1], theism is:
belief in the existence of a god or gods
specifically belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world.
Theists believe that there is one god (specifically their god). Likewise, a Theistic Argument would be positing for the existence of a very specific god/set of gods. If this were a debate, the burden of proof would be placed on the person arguing that there is specific evidence for the existence of a particular god/set of gods. Since I posited a negative assertion, the burden of proof would not be on me to prove that there is NO evidence for theism.
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@PressF4Respect
Theists believe that there is one god (specifically their god). Likewise, a Theistic Argument would be positing for the existence of a very specific god/set of gods. If this were a debate, the burden of proof would be placed on the person arguing that there is specific evidence for the existence of a particular god/set of gods. Since I posited a negative assertion, the burden of proof would not be on me to prove that there is NO evidence for theism.
This is categorically erroneous. The burden of proof rests with the one who posits a claim, whether it affirms or negates. You are stating in effect that "the nonexistence of evidence for God's existence" is true. The logical inversion of your argument demonstrates that you are in fact making a "true" statement or in this context, a positive claim. Failure to substantiate your negative assertion does not inform the positive assertion, and vice versa less you fall into an argument from ignorance. Essentially, if you posit an assertion, the burden of proof rest on you to support it. My inquiry isn't designed to inform the theistic assertion, but your claim and your claim alone that there's no evidence. How do you know this? Once again, please elaborate.

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@PressF4Respect
The One God that I recognize is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. This is The One True God. 

I believe that God became incarnate, sanctifying all of creation.

I believe that it is God's Spirit that fills all things and gives life to all creation.

I believe that in becoming incarnate, God became even death so that by death, death is conquered.

And so I believe in the last day when all of creation will be made manifest by the light of The Truth, that death itself will perish as all of creation is united to God in eternal life.

And I believe that Eternal life is this... to know The One True God, and  the Word of God incarnate, Jesus Christ.







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@Mopac
You can believe in whatever you want. I’m not here to say what you can or can’t believe in. 
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@Athias
There are only two possible stances that you could take for this subject: either there is evidence for theism or there isn’t. Since no evidence has been provided, the stance that there is no evidence for theism is the default position. Proving that there is no evidence for theism would require me to comb through literally every single webpage, book, and other source of information in existence. This is extremely impractical, if not impossible, to do. It’s like having to scour every single cubic centimeter of space in the universe just to prove that fairies don’t exist. Until someone provides evidence that fairies exist, it can be concluded that they don’t. Same logic applies to this case as well. 
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@PressF4Respect
There are only two possible stances that you could take for this subject: either there is evidence for theism or there isn’t. Since no evidence has been provided, the stance that there is no evidence for theism is the default position.
This is an argument from ignorance, an informal logical fallacy which delineates that your posit is validated by lack of evidence to its contrary. There's no "default" position. You still have the burden to support your claim. It works both ways: just like a theist cannot use your lack of disproving their claim as information for their claim, you cannot use their lack of proof for their claims as information for yours--i.e. the default position is that there's no evidence.

Proving that there is no evidence for theism would require me to comb through literally every single webpage, book, and other source of information in existence. This is extremely impractical, if not impossible, to do. It’s like having to scour every single cubic centimeter of space in the universe just to prove that fairies don’t exist.
Then perhaps it would be prudent to refrain from proposing arguments you find impractical to substantiate.

Until someone provides evidence that fairies exist, it can be concluded that they don’t. Same logic applies to this case as well. 
And this logic you apply is unsound.

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@Athias
If you go to the debate section and look at all the debates (for whatever reason), you will notice that in some debates, the Instigator waives the first round. The reason people do this is because it would be extremely impractical to BoP a negative claim first round. So in a debate, what I did would be considered valid.

Anyways, since you insist on it, I'll fulfill your BoP requirement in the simplest way I can think of.

I will be using modus tollens to prove that there is no theistic evidence that mankind has yet created.

The premise of modus tollens is as follows [1]:
If P, then Q. (premise – material implication)
If not Q, then not P. (derived by transposition)
Not Q . (premise)
Therefore, not P. (derived by modus ponens)

Applied to this case, the logical structure of the proof looks like this:
If there is a theistic argument, then theists would use it. 
If there is no such argument, then no theists would use it.
Theists are resorting to deistic arguments in the absence of theistic ones (as evidenced by this thread).
Therefore, there is no theistic argument. 


According to the above proof, until the day that theists start using theistic arguments, it can be logically proven that no such argument exists. 

Happy now?

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@Athias
Also, please elaborate on how my fairy logic was unsound
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Also I think there was a misunderstanding about #14. It was basically what a theistic argument is trying to prove (that there is specific evidence for one particular god/set of gods which cannot be applied to any other). Oh well, at least this’ll make you stop whatever you were going to say about my “argument from ignorance” 
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@Athias
How do you argue against the response "I've not been presented with any compelling evidence that any god, much less a specific version of god, exists. I will gladly examine evidence if you have it to present."? Do you present the evidence you have (which I hope is more compelling than "we make conclusions about god x y z all the time, therefore it exists, because this would also seem to imply that Superman "exists" in the same way the bible god does: as imaginary creations). 
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Actually I realized an error to my proof. It should read "If no theists are using such an argument, then no such argument exists." instead of "If there is no such argument, then no theists would use it." Woops, I just caught that.
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@PressF4Respect
@PressF4Respect:

If you go to the debate section and look at all the debates (for whatever reason), you will notice that in some debates, the Instigator waives the first round. The reason people do this is because it would be extremely impractical to BoP a negative claim first round. So in a debate, what I did would be considered valid.
This is incorrect. I, myself, have instigated a debate over which I would assume the Con position. I did not find it "impractical" to satisfy my onus, then. In fact, I would not have instigated the debate if I wasn't prepared to satisfy my burden of proof. Common practice does not speak to validity.

Anyways, since you insist on it, I'll fulfill your BoP requirement in the simplest way I can think of.
It's not my requirement; it's the onus placed on your argument by your own assertion.

I will be using modus tollens to prove that there is no theistic evidence that mankind has yet created.

The premise of modus tollens is as follows [1]:
If P, then Q. (premise – material implication)
If not Q, then not P. (derived by transposition)
Not Q . (premise)
Therefore, not P. (derived by modus ponens)

Applied to this case, the logical structure of the proof looks like this:
If there is a theistic argument, then theists would use it. 
If there is no such argument, then no theists would use it.
Theists are resorting to deistic arguments in the absence of theistic ones (as evidenced by this thread).
Therefore, there is no theistic argument. 

Modus Ponens and Modus Tollens are valid inductive forms and can be properly constructed if in fact you can substantiate your premises; you have not substantiated your premises; therefore, you have not properly constructed the Modus Tollens. (See what I did there?)

According to the above proof, until the day that theists start using theistic arguments, it can be logically proven that no such argument exists. 
What proof? You have not substantiated your premises. There has yet to be any demonstration of evidence by this thread. 3RU7AL's videos at best are subject to interpretation, and the only contribution you've made to the discussion is to assert that Theists use deistic arguments because evidence for their "particular God," outside of holy texts, does not exist. Not to mention, the argument you've used to construct the modus tollens is still an argument from ignorance because you're still placing the referendum on the Theistic argument to inform your assertion. This is the argument you have a burden to substantiate:

The reason theists use deist arguments is because there is no evidence (outside of holy texts) of the existence of their particular god. 
Not speculation into a theist's reasons.

Happy now?

My "happiness" should matter to neither you nor this discussion.

Also, please elaborate on how my fairy logic was unsound.
You are arguing from ignorance. If the description of the logical fallacy does not suffice, then perhaps this aphorism will: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Also I think there was a misunderstanding about #14. It was basically what a theistic argument is trying to prove (that there is specific evidence for one particular god/set of gods which cannot be applied to any other). Oh well, at least this’ll make you stop whatever you were going to say about my “argument from ignorance” 
"What a theist is trying to prove?" has nothing to do with my inquiry. My inquiry is solely based on your assertion that there is no evidence for this God. Your resolution suggests reconciliation in that Theists have yet to provide evidence for this God, rather than your supporting your claim that there is no such evidence. And that is argument from ignorance.

@ludofl3x:

How do you argue against the response "I've not been presented with any compelling evidence that any god, much less a specific version of god, exists. I will gladly examine evidence if you have it to present."?
I don't because that's not the argument PressF4Respect made. There's a fundamental difference between stating "evidence has yet to be discovered," and "there is no evidence." The former is epistemological protocol while the latter is ontological supposition. Second, if you're going to use a qualification like "compelling" then you're treading outside the realm of logic and science, and entering subjective value. If you're going to entertain your own values, then it's nothing short of hypocritical to condemn others for doing the same.

Do you present the evidence you have (which I hope is more compelling than "we make conclusions about god x y z all the time, therefore it exists, because this would also seem to imply that Superman "exists" in the same way the bible god does: as imaginary creations). 
Your value is not the rubric by which evidence is determined. That is, it's not required to be "compelling." If you do a little digging, you might find a thread here started by TheAtheist, which I believe was named "Why Do You believe God Exists?" where I submitted a pithy statement: "I believe God exists because I can." Everything one/we perceive(s) must exist; I perceive God (the distinction between audition, cognition, gustation, olfaction, somatosensation, and vision notwithstanding;) therefore God must exist. (Feel free to challenge this logic.)

I don't completely rule out the possibility that God is imaginary, much in the same way I don't completely rule out the possibility that everything we perceive is imaginary (or at the very least, contains fundamental elements of imagination a la colors, shapes, numbers, direction, logic, concept, etc.) The irony is, we've used our imaginations to conceive concepts like Mathematics and Science to aid us in rationalizing our environment, yet the atheist, usually in some cognitive dissonance, uses imagination as means to trivialize God and religion.

And Superman does exist, otherwise I don't know what I'm looking at when I watch Supergirl.