DEISM is functionally identical to ATHEISM

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10.18.2019 04:44PM

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@Mopac

You know that truth is reality [QUANTA], falsehood is unreality [QUALIA].

Got it.

And surely you can tell, because as a human being you have inherited the knowledge of good and evil. Besides, you demonstrate that you know the difference.

I was born with social instincts. Just like rats. Just like dogs. My social instincts may or may not be exactly the same as yours.

#212

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10.18.2019 05:08PM

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@3RU7AL

Very little to do with social instincts.

#213

ludofl3x

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ludofl3x

10.18.2019 05:16PM

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@Mopac

because as a human being you have inherited the knowledge of good and evil.

Is everyone inherting the same knowledge of good and evil? If not, why not? If so, why do we see such a wide array of different behaviors, shouldn't all behavior be the same? For example, some people think it's evil to eat pork on certain days. It's a sin. Some don't. If god gave them the exact same knowledge, which one is wrong and going to hell?

#214

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Posts: 8,050

10.18.2019 05:33PM

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@ludofl3x

That is actually part of the reason it is considered the fall of man, that is, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

We have it in us, but what we really lack is perspective. The rightful judge of good and evil is God. Self righteousness is delusion. if we have any righteousness at all it is from abiding in God. God is the righteousness in us. The Truth is righteousness because The Truth is right. Correct. Get it?

As an aside, pigs are nasty dude, have you ever heard of pig toilets? I mean even if I wasn't a vegetarian I wouldn't eat pigs. It isn't really healthy food anyway, but to each his own I guess.

#215

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10.18.2019 11:18PM

I think the idea of a God who doesn't hold your hand is just never gonna appeal to most theists. He has to be personal. He has to be watching over them.

Religion is a psychological survival tool, and when you have an indifferent and impersonal God, that tool is no longer serving its purpose. It's no longer helping humans psychologically survive. So they'll cling to their survival tool and use deist arguments to protect it, regardless of the disconnect between the two.

When it comes to the deist God, I have often heard theists say "Then what is the point of a God like that?" Which is interesting -- why does whether or not something objectively exists depend upon whether it is useful or desirable to humans?

#216

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10.18.2019 11:40PM

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@Castin

It is no strange thing to see our walk as a relationship to God when our God is The Truth and our way is to abide in The Truth. The struggle one has in this walk is very personal.

#217

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10.19.2019 02:25AM

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@Mopac

The human experience is a very personal thing in general.

#218

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10.19.2019 03:27AM

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@Castin

Your experience is your relationship with God.

#219

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10.19.2019 03:55AM

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@Mopac

My experience has been quite devoid of God.

#220

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10.19.2019 06:38AM

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@Castin

So it seems to you.

#221

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

10.19.2019 06:59AM

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@Mopac

Defecation and urination are fairly standard mammalian functions. So I don't quite understand why you have singled out Pigs for criticism.

Well I do understand actually.

It's simply a personally acquired and stored set of data. Exactly the same as your own particular existence hypothesis.

#222

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10.19.2019 08:57PM

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@zedvictor4

Pigs share a lot of diseases with people, they eat shit, and besides, not healthy in a lot of other ways. If you want to eat them, that is your business, but you'd probably be better off without.

#223

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10.20.2019 02:41AM

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@Mopac

I could also simply say "so it seems to you" to dismiss your theistic experience. It can be applied to pretty much anything.

#224

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10.20.2019 11:54AM

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@Castin

Doesn't mean you understand what I am talking about though.

11 days later

Topic's author

#225

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

10.31.2019 06:53PM

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@Mopac

Doesn't mean you understand what I am talking about though.

We can't know what you're talking about because your claim is regarding,

PRIVATE-INFORMATION, AKA, GNOSIS, AKA, UNFALSIFIABLE, AKA, QUALITATIVE, AKA, EXPERIENTIAL, AKA, UNVERIFIABLE OPINION.

#226

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

10.31.2019 09:44PM

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@3RU7AL

"The perfect mind is the one that through genuine faith knows in supreme ignorance the supremely unknowable, and gazing on the universe of his handiwork has received from God comprehensive knowledge of His providence and judgement in it, as far as allowable to men." ~Saint Maximus the confessor.

Topic's author

#227

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

11.01.2019 11:23AM

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@Mopac

We can't know what you're talking about because your claim is regarding,

PRIVATE-INFORMATION, AKA, GNOSIS, AKA, UNFALSIFIABLE, AKA, QUALITATIVE, AKA, EXPERIENTIAL, AKA, UNVERIFIABLE OPINION.

#228

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

11.01.2019 12:20PM

Arguments are built, not asserted all at once. To make a credible theistic argument, one must first make a logical deistic argument.

There are very good arguments for both deism and theism, proof of this is how atheism has had to change and adapt in order to address and or answer those arguments.

Topic's author

#229

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11.01.2019 01:57PM

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@ethang5

There are very good arguments for both deism and theism...

hOLd on.

Let's not go ASSERTING all over yourself.

Please present even one "very good" argument for theism.

Just one, oh-man-oh-man, I've been looking for one for such a long time!

#230

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

11.02.2019 05:49AM

--> @3RU7AL

Please present even one "very good" argument for theism.

I haven't a clue what you consider an argument for theism. I don't even know what "theism" is to you.

This seems to me like an off topic tangent. So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism, I will not debate it here.

Make a seperate thread if the topic interests you that much. I would find it interesting enough to post there.

The point here is that the OP says that deism is functionally identical to atheism, and my considered opinion is that this may seem so because arguments for theism must first establish deism.

The OP also misunderstands his own word - "functionally". He apparently thinks this functionality should "inform" our daily lives, our system of government, our laws, and/or our sense of morality.

He is clearly incorrect, as deism has implications that atheism clearly does not have. And as expected, diests have worldviews very different than that of atheists.

But I wanted to handle the reason why he thought deism was the same as atheism first, before complicating the argument with the "functionality" side show.

#231

Harikrish

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Harikrish

11.02.2019 07:15PM

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@ethang5

I haven't a clue what you consider an argument for theism. I don't know what "theism" is to you.

This seems to me like an off topic tangent. So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism, I will not debate it here.

Make a seperate thread if the topic interests you that much. I would find it interesting enough to post there.

The point here is that the OP says that deism is functionally identical to atheism, and my considered opinion is that this may seem so because arguments for theism must first establish deism.

The OP also misunderstands his own word - "functionally". He apparently thinks this functionality should "inform" our daily lives, our system of government, our laws, and/or our sense of morality.

He is clearly incorrect, as deism has implications that atheism clearly does not have. And as expected, diests have worldviews very different than that of atheists.

But I wanted to handle the reason why he thought deism was the same as atheism first, before complicating the argument with the "functionality" side show.

Maybe a definition of them will help you since as a Christian you are not considered any of the recognized groups.

Brewer's: Theist, Deist, Atheist, Agnostic

A theist believes there is a God who made and governs all creation; but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation.

A deist believes there is a God who created all things, but does not believe in His superintendence and government. He thinks the Creator implanted in all things certain immutable laws, called the Laws of Nature, which act per se, as a watch acts without the supervision of its maker. Like the theist, he does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation.

The atheist disbelieves even the existence of a God. He thinks matter is eternal, and what we call “creation” is the result of natural laws.

The agnostic believes only what is knowable. He rejects revelation and the doctrine of the Trinity as “past human understanding.” He is neither theist, deist, nor atheist, as all these are past understanding.

A Christian is someòne who believes an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.That only dead Jews can forgive sins. Hitler to update this concept exterminated 6 million Jews to keep up with the growing population of Christian sinners.

Today we have 2 billion Christian sinners and only 14 million Jews. Most Christian accountants believe we need more Jews and not Christian sinners.

#232

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Posts: 8,050

11.04.2019 12:51PM

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@3RU7AL

I am making no claim regarding opinion, only what I know to be true. Namely that...

That nothing exists apart from The Truth. That The Truth is eternal and unchanging, that before the world or worlds there was The Truth, and that The Truth is God.

The God of Truth is with us, incarnate in the world.

That in entering the world, The Truth became death, for the nature of all temporal reality is that the present state requires the death of the prior state to exist. The nature of created things is that they are contingent realities that exist in relation to each other.

That it is the sacrifice of The Truth that allows all things to exist, for it is unreality that defines creation. Any reality other than God, The Ultimate Reality cannot be reality in its entirety. It would not ultimately be real, but instead a created thing.

Though The Incarnate Truth died in order to give life to the world before its foundation, the incarnate truth is still alive with us today, having risen up from the deepest death, filling all things and reconciling all of existence back to divinity.

What am I really saying?

We know the God we worship, and we know we have found the true faith. We worship The Undivided Trinity, for this is our salvation. It is not opinion, but a mystery hidden since the foundation of the world, and revealed to those to whom God has illuminated.

Topic's author

#233

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

11.04.2019 01:21PM

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@ethang5

Please present even one "very good" argument for theism.
I haven't a clue what you consider an argument for theism. I don't even know what "theism" is to you.

It doesn't matter what I think is a "very good" argument for theism.

You said you have one, so, just present it.

Topic's author

#234

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

11.04.2019 01:23PM

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@ethang5

...deism has implications that atheism clearly does not have.

Like what exactly?

And as expected, diests have worldviews very different than that of atheists.

Can you please explain the differences?

#235

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

11.04.2019 06:55PM

It doesn't matter what I think is a "very good" argument for theism

Then why should I have to present an argument?

You said you have one, so, just present it.

Let me remind you what I said earlier.

This seems to me like an off topic tangent. So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism, I will not debate it here.

Can you please explain the differences?

You seem to want threads diverted to your preferred topic whenever you come across a topic you like. I think that is disrespectful to the OP.

Make a seperate thread if the topic interests you that much. I would find it interesting enough to post there.

If you don't care to do so, there you are.

Topic's author

#236

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

11.04.2019 07:17PM

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@ethang5

This seems to me like an off topic tangent.

I started this thread, so I get to decide what's "off-topic" or not.

So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism,

Your awesome argument is one word? Which SPECIFIC god(s) do you think "Life" proves?

You seem to want threads diverted to your preferred topic whenever you come across a topic you like. I think that is disrespectful to the OP.

I'm quite certain that I am the "OP".

#237

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Posts: 5,875

11.05.2019 08:04AM

This seems to me like an off topic tangent.

I started this thread, so I get to decide what's "off-topic" or not.

I disagree. The title does that. And I retain my right to decide for myself.

So while I think "Life" is an ironclad argument for theism,

Your awesome argument is one word? Which SPECIFIC god(s) do you think "Life" proves?

I said, "This seems to me like an off topic tangent. I will not debate it here.

You will learn that I mean what I say. Like it or hate it, but it will stand.

You seem to want threads diverted to your preferred topic whenever you come across a topic you like. I think that is disrespectful to the OP.

I'm quite certain that I am the "OP".

All the more reason you should not be disrespectful.

A member clicking on your thread expects to see a discussion on whether Deism is functionally identical to Atheism, and because he/she found that topic interesting, clicked on it.

Is there a reason you are reluctant to make a new thread for a new topic?

Topic's author

#238

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,731

11.05.2019 12:38PM

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@ethang5

You obviously have no argument for theism.

You made a claim, on this thread, which you refuse to support.

And now, you're making up imaginary "rules" to obscure the FACT that you have no such argument.

Topic's author

#239

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Posts: 13,731

11.05.2019 12:41PM

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@ethang5

And if you're so obsessed with adhering to the OP, why didn't you comment on it?

#240

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