Do You believe the Candidates?

Author: TheDredPriateRoberts

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HistoryBuff
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@SirAnonymous
 The first half (by which I mean the part between the first and second quotes) assumes that the studies concluding single-payer would save money are accurate. The second half of my post explains why they are probably underestimating the costs and that single-payer would not actually save money.
Even if medicare didn't save money, my answer would be, so what? Then the US would pay the same amount and cover everyone. It would still be a massively better plan. But the evidence still suggests it would save money.

Sure, but that still doesn't change the fact that their single-payer healthcare system isn't nearly as good as advertised.
 I don't think anyone has ever claimed the Canadian system is perfect. It isn't. But no one dies because they don't have coverage for a medical procedure. People don't get sicker because they skipped seeing a doctor for something minor because they couldn't afford it, then end up with a much more serious medical issue. No one goes bankrupt because they get in an accident and can't pay for their hospital bill. 

The Canadian model isn't perfect. But it is leaps and bounds better than the US system for 90% of people. The only people who are better off with the American system are rich people who don't have to worry about the costs. And those 45,000 people you mentioned, are mostly rich people who want to pay extra to skip the line. 
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@SirAnonymous
It isn't that she's trying to avoid giving a soundbite. She is lying outright and saying middle class tax rates won't have to go up.
No she's not. I've heard her answer that question multiple times. She says costs will go down. Which is true. She never says taxes will not go up, at least I have never heard her say those words. 

Warren is trying to have it both ways by eliminating private insurance and instituting single-payer without paying for it in taxes. In reality, someone has to pay for health insurance.
No she's not. She is saying that taxes will go up, but by less than the amount people will save on healthcare costs. She just doesn't want to say the words taxes will go up out loud. She has never said, to my knowledge, that taxes will not go up. 
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@HistoryBuff
I looked it up. It looks like she's just refusing to say they will go up rather than saying they won't go up. Not an outright lie, but still not very honest.
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@SirAnonymous
I looked it up. It looks like she's just refusing to say they will go up rather than saying they won't go up. Not an outright lie, but still not very honest.
She wants to avoid people misrepresenting her statement. She is saying that you will save money. Taxes will go up, but you will save way more with no healthcare costs. She isn't being dishonest. She is trying to prevent dishonest people from spinning her statement. I guarantee you if she said the words "taxes will go up", the headline for fox news would be "Warren promises to raise your taxes!!" and they would never get around to mentioning that you would be saving money. 
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@HistoryBuff
let me be pragmatic and let's take any emotion out of this.

Currently
Do you think there are enough Doctors, Hospitals and Hospital workers?  (nurses etc)
How about things like scans, xray, physical therapy, mental health?

would reducing costs cause it to be used more?
If something has a higher demand many things need to happen to meet that demand.  More employees for instance, more hospitals, state of the art equipment etc etc

This is why I don't believe it will save individuals money but rather cost them more, increase wait times and create shortages.  I can't see any other outcome.
Our current system is already under a great deal of strain trying to meet the demand and they want to increase the demand?  How do you square that circle?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
This is why I don't believe it will save individuals money but rather cost them more, increase wait times and create shortages.  I can't see any other outcome.
So your argument is, if poor people get healthcare then rich people might have to pay more and wait longer. So we therefore should let poor people get sick and die to save a little bit of money and to make sure you get healthcare faster. That is a horrible, horrible argument. 

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@HistoryBuff
facts don't care about your feelings

the wait and cost will increase for everyone, how you got just the rich out of what I said is pure emotion which is blinding you to the facts.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
facts don't care about your feelings
And the facts show that most other countries don't let poor people get sick and die because they can't afford to go the hospital. This sort of system (or something like it) is the norm in much of the world. It's your feelings that are the problem. 

Americans like to tell anyone who will listen that they are the greatest country on earth. But America can't even provide healthcare for Americans. How can America possibly be the greatest when most other modern countries take better care of their people?


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@HistoryBuff
lol I don't care what other countries do or do not do, it's irrelevant to me.
another appeal to emotion and no denial of what I presented, duly noted.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
lol I don't care what other countries do or do not do, it's irrelevant to me.
You are arguing that bad things would happen if this was done. I explained that lots of countries do this and their system works much better than yours. But you see that as irrelevant?

another appeal to emotion and no denial of what I presented, duly noted.
Let me try this another way. Would be OK with it being legal to murder someone ahead of you in line so you could get a service faster? The wait at your favorite coffee shop is too long so you stab a guy and move up in the line. That is essentially what you are arguing for. You want poor people to not be allowed to have healthcare so you don't have to wait in a line. You are advocating for people to die for your convenience. While I agree that there is an emotional response to that, what with that making you a monster, but there should be a legal response as well. The law says you cannot kill someone to get coffee faster. It should also say that you cannot kill someone to get healthcare faster.    
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@HistoryBuff
You are arguing that bad things would happen if this was done.
if you consider increased costs, wait times etc "bad things" that's up to you, I presented them as facts, whatever emotional tag you want to put on them is all you.
But you see that as irrelevant?
yes other countries are irrelevant to me generally speaking, problems are unique and so are solutions.

You want poor people to not be allowed to have healthcare so you don't have to wait in a line.
never said that, please control your emotions
You are advocating for people to die for your convenience.
no your emotions are making you think that erroneously.

How much of your money do you donate to places like Bradley free clinic or St. Judes?  They save lives do they not?  Do you waste money on things like video games or other useless entertainment to amuse yourself instead of saving lives?  Are you a monster?
you should only spend money on things you need to survive, don't you care?  Ohhh but that's different right?

Why stop at healthcare?  Don't people need food and shelter?

Stop letting your emotions control you, you should try harder to control them and see things how they actually are.



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@TheDredPriateRoberts
yes other countries are irrelevant to me generally speaking, problems are unique and so are solutions.
Problems are not unique. Every country in the world has the same problems providing healthcare. Pretending you can't learn from other people who are doing better than you is a pretty big problem. 

How much of your money do you donate to places like Bradley free clinic or St. Judes?
Are are attempting to shift the conversation and the responsibility. I am saying that society, as a whole, should be responsible for these things. By definition that would include me. You are attempting to straw man me by saying if I don't donate everything I own to charity, then I shouldn't be allowed to say that society should be improved. It is a silly argument. I don't think basic human survival should depend on charity.

Why stop at healthcare?  Don't people need food and shelter?
Yes absolutely. We shouldn't stop at healthcare. The government already has assistance programs to help people who can't afford food and shelter. But I would fully support fixing those too. 

Stop letting your emotions control you, you should try harder to control them and see things how they actually are.
You are advocating that poor people shouldn't have healthcare. The obvious extension of that is that they will die when they get sick. Ergo, you want poor people to die. It is a logical extension of the argument you are making. There is nothing emotional about that. if you withheld all food from your child, the logical extension would be that you are attempting to starve it. It is not emotional to say that you are starving it, it is just a fact.

Stop pretending that logical examinations of your argument are somehow emotional and invalid. 

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@HistoryBuff
Are are attempting to shift the conversation and the responsibility.
you called me a monster, I'm telling you to take a good look in the mirror, if you want to claim some kind moral superiority then I expect you to live like it, which obviously you don't. 
You are advocating that poor people shouldn't have healthcare.
I am?  where did I say any such thing? 
do you understand what cause and effect are?  If you could ever learn to tame your emotions you'd understand that is exactly what I have presented.  Because you lack self control you resort to personal attacks and name calling.  Your emotional appeal is getting childish.

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
you called me a monster, I'm telling you to take a good look in the mirror, if you want to claim some kind moral superiority then I expect you to live like it, which obviously you don't. 
I am advocating for society as a whole to make sure everyone gets healthcare. You are advocating for poor people to get sick and die. I don't have the resources to resolve the problem. Anything I could do would be a band-aid. The government can resolve the issue entirely. 

do you understand what cause and effect are?  If you could ever learn to tame your emotions you'd understand that is exactly what I have presented.  Because you lack self control you resort to personal attacks and name calling.
Here is what I perceive your argument to be. If this is incorrect them please clarify what your position is. 

1) you disagree with medicare for all because you think it would be too expensive and might increase wait times. 
2) you would prefer to leave things more or less the way they are now. 

in the current system millions of people die from not receiving proper care. Millions more go bankrupt trying to afford the care they need to survive. The logical extension of your argument is that you want poor people to not be able to get care (thus killing or bankrupting them) so that you don't have to wait a little longer. There is nothing emotional in that, there is no personal attack. I am simply laying out what you are advocating for.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Im a Democrat and even I dont believe half the shit some of these candidates try to campaign on. To pass some of these grand proposals such as Medicare for All or free College Tuition at public universities, you need to have at least some GOP support in order to enact those policies. A lot of candidates though are simply acting like that wont be an issue, that they'll be walking into office with super majorities in the House and Senate to carry out their will at a moments notice, and thats just not the case.... While things look iffy for Trump in terms of being re-elected, the senate map heavily favors the GOP since they can easily hang on to a lot of states they currently have power in


Because of the Senate races in 2020, any policy proposal by a Dem president would need bipartisan support, and a fuckton of policies that some candidates currently campaign on will not achieve that. Beto's Assault Weapons confiscation is the easiest example I can think of that the GOP would never support, Universal Healthcare or Medicare for All is a close second. 

MAYBE a Public Option can get passed. Maybe... Giving poor people decent healthcare while others can hold on to theirs all while lowering monthly costs across the board that mainly preserves the system as it currently is, I could see the GOP being willing to bite on that and go with it. I think the GOP is starting to make peace with Obamacare due to the vicious defense of it by voters that led to the GOP getting walloped during Midterms, especially compared to some of the other proposed overhauls being campaigned on. 

Pete Buttigieg famously said in the first debate "I think we have to stop worrying about what Republicans will think about us". The GOP are still going to fuckin be around in 2020, thats something that will have to be reconciled and a good number of Dem candidates simply havent accepted that. 
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@HistoryBuff
You are advocating for poor people to get sick and die.
since this is the 2nd time you've said this and I asked you to show where I said any such thing and you didn't because you can't because I never said anything like that, I view you as a liar.
I don't have the resources to resolve the problem. Anything I could do would be a band-aid.
you could sponsor 1 child or add to what is already donated to "resolve the problem" of a few people.  guess it's an all or nothing thing for you.

The government can resolve the issue entirely. 
LOL yeah I hear they've been doing a great job with the V.A. and medicare, they do deserve the whole thing from doing such a good job with those.

1) you disagree with medicare for all because you think it would be too expensive and might increase wait times. 
2) you would prefer to leave things more or less the way they are now. 
wrong yet again
I've long advocated in many, many threads that the system needs to be fix,changes made etc, most of which means LESS government.

in the current system millions of people die from not receiving proper care.
citation?
Millions more go bankrupt trying to afford the care they need to survive.
citation for that one too
your argument is that you want poor people to not be able to get care (thus killing or bankrupting them) so that you don't have to wait a little longer.
I am simply laying out what you are advocating for.

your assumptions are so far off the mark it makes you look kinda dumb to be honest, perhaps calm down, put your emotions in check, take the blinders off and read the words written in front of you without injecting your emotional knee jerk response to them.

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@Imabench
it's really sad no one is willing to advocate for fixing the current system,  Obamacare was shoved down everyone's throat, billions on a website fail etc, a real mess that didn't need to happen.  A much better and far less complex fix could and should have been done.
IMO Obamacare was less about helping people and more about self and party promotion which is a shame.  Government parties no longer want to share credit for good things, therefore we really don't get good things, not like we should.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
With the congressional supermajority that Obama walked into office with, he admittedly didnt even really have to moderate the policies. As long as Dems stayed in line when the vote call was made, (which for the most part they did), then there was effectively nothing that the GOP could do to derail the whole thing no matter which parts they objected over. 

Now though these Dem candidates seem to think they'll be walking into office under the same circumstances when the blatant truth is that they're not. Maybe in the House there will be even larger gains that werent already won during midterms, but the Senate will remain the same barring some sort of catastrophic fuckup that sinks the careers of 10 to 20 Senators, and that alone will be an impassable roadblock to about 80% of the signature proposals some candidates are campaigning on. 


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@TheDredPriateRoberts
since this is the 2nd time you've said this and I asked you to show where I said any such thing and you didn't because you can't because I never said anything like that, I view you as a liar.
I laid out what I interpreted your argument to be and why the logical extension of that is that you want poor people to die. if I have misunderstood then please lay out precisely what it is you are advocating for. 

you could sponsor 1 child or add to what is already donated to "resolve the problem" of a few people.  guess it's an all or nothing thing for you.
I could, but the system would still be broken. thousands, if not millions, of other children would not get help. I believe we should deal with the entire problem. Why would I advocate for only helping a tiny percentage of children when I can advocate for helping all of them?

LOL yeah I hear they've been doing a great job with the V.A. and medicare, they do deserve the whole thing from doing such a good job with those.
Those programs were fundamentally flawed. They weren't based on the concept that healthcare is a right. They were based on the idea that poor people can have some charity. Welfare programs are very easy to cut and undermine because most people don't care about them because most people don't benefit from them. But if you make it a program that affects every single american, it is extremely difficult to cut it or undermine it because you are directly harming all of your voters. That is one of the reasons why medicare for all is a much better plan. 

I've long advocated in many, many threads that the system needs to be fix,changes made etc, most of which means LESS government.
Like what? there is no organization that is willing to help everyone other than the government. Companies exist to profit. There is no profit in helping sick people who don't have money. You will never find a privatized system that will help everyone. If you want everyone to get healthcare, I do not believe there is any alternative to the government providing it.

citation?
Here is a study showing 45,000 americans die per year from lack of coverage. Please note that this does not include people who are under covered (ie they have some coverage but still can't afford proper healthcare) as these numbers are much harder to determine. There are a great many people who die because they have insurance but can't afford the co-pay so they put off medical care and end up dying from complications. It also doesn't include people who die from trying to stretch out their medicine, ie taking less of it trying to make it last longer, which also kills lots of people. Unfortunately there is no 1 source which can show you the true level of death the American healthcare system causes.

citation for that one too
Here is a link showing that medical debt is tied to 66.5% of bankruptcies, approximately 530,000 families per year. With medicare for all this would be 0.

your assumptions are so far off the mark it makes you look kinda dumb to be honest, perhaps calm down, put your emotions in check, take the blinders off and read the words written in front of you without injecting your emotional knee jerk response to them.
What emotions are you referring to? You haven't given a single point disproving what I interpret your argument to be. Do you support a government plan to provide healthcare to every single american? Do you have some other plan that would accomplish this? If you don't, then you are supporting the continuation of the status quo, which as I have shown, kills a great many poor people. If you know that and still advocate for this position then you are advocating for their deaths. That is not an emotional argument, it is a factual one. If this is not your position then please tell me what your position is. It would be much easier to discuss this if you would clarify your position. 
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I laid out what I interpreted your argument to be...

lol, strawman.

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@Greyparrot
lol, strawman.
I specifically asked him several times to explain his position and he has repeatedly refused to explain it. All I can do is judge his position on how i perceive it to be because he won't tell me what it is. That isn't a strawman. 


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@Imabench
If only the money could be taken out of politics :(

Clinton did Gabbard a huge favor lol I kinda like Gabbard more than I did and we know more about her.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Watch this.

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@Greyparrot

She is putting words in his mouth and not asking what he actually means. I have repeatedly told him what I percieve his position to be and asked him to clarify. He responds by not clarifying in any way and saying i'm just "emotional".

There is no method I can use to judge his position other than my perception of it if he won't explain it. But conservatives do love to pretend that they are victims all the time. 

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Also watch this.
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@HistoryBuff
I laid out what I ASSUMED your argument to be
There fixed it for you

I believe we should deal with the entire problem. Why would I advocate for only helping a tiny percentage of children when I can advocate for helping all of them?
sure all or nothing, I got it the first example you gave.
based on the concept that healthcare is a right.
it's not a right
Do you support a government plan to provide healthcare to every single american?
nope, it's not their job nor within their scope of practice, they will not do a good job at it.  My opinion is based on past performance which is limited.  Expanding it to all would magnify the incompetence and inefficiency that already exists.  There is no reason to believe otherwise other than to take it on faith.
Do you have some other plan that would accomplish this?
if your car breaks down, doesn't work properly, do you just run out and buy another car?  Do you replace the whole motor rather than just what is needed?
What I want to hear from anyone, party is irrelevant, is Here are 20 things that will cut spending by x, reduce costs of x without increasing debt and there is no way the other party can't vote yes for them.  
Hand up not a hand out
How about making it easier for charities?  Real ones not like the bull shit clinton foundation, notice how the donations all but dried up once she was defeated, gee I wonder why.
Let's not spend millions on studying how shrimp walk and instead put that into healthcare.
Let's stop giving billions to countries that hate us and put that into healthcare.
You see the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.
I know, such a monster huh.






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@Greyparrot
wow!
must be rough trying to confess to save whatever career you might have left after lying for so long and doubling down on it.

I like using the word perceive instead of assume, like there's much of a difference.

Jordan Peterson A+++
I've watched that one a few times :)

spot on, I wasn't actually saying anything but pointing out the consequences (potential)

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
There fixed it for you
And yet despite me asking multiple times for you to clarify what your argument is, you still don't bother to do that. How is anyone supposed to be able to accurately debate against you if you won't tell anyone what your point is?

sure all or nothing, I got it the first example you gave.
Obviously helping everyone is better than helping a small number of people. That is pretty straight forward. But on a more fundamental level, I don't think that the survival of people should be a matter for individuals to address with charity. The only way to address the underlying problem is with government policy. 

it's not a right
Not yet. Medicare for all would make it one. That's the point.

nope, it's not their job nor within their scope of practice, they will not do a good job at it.  My opinion is based on past performance which is limited.  Expanding it to all would magnify the incompetence and inefficiency that already exists.
So you see that the system is broken. But you don't want to make any kind of significant changes to that broken system. What exactly is your point? Do you want to keep the system exactly as it is? If not, what improvements are you arguing we should make?

if your car breaks down, doesn't work properly, do you just run out and buy another car?  Do you replace the whole motor rather than just what is needed?
If your car is too old and there are no replacement parts, yes that is exactly what you do. The american healthcare system is so fundamentally broken that replacing small parts of it cannot hope to correct the issue. 

You see the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.
I know, such a monster huh.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any argument at all for any specific policy to improve things. You basically just said, someone should come up with something with nothing close to a specific plan. The republicans have had 10 years to come up with a plan to replace obamacare. They still have not provided a single idea for how to do that. They just keep repeating they want to repeal it without saying what their idea is. The reason they do this is because they don't have any ideas. There is no way to improve access to healthcare without more government intervention. They know that. If they released a plan it would be really easy to see that their intention is take healthcare away from people. So they just keep refusing to tell anyone what their plan is. 

You seem to not want any left wing plans that would improve things, but there are no other plans available. If you are aware of a real plan to fix healthcare I would love to hear it. But as far as i know, no right wing plans for that exist, I think you will be unable to provide one. 

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Her and Amy Klobuchar are the two candidates that impressed me the most early on in the primary. If their poll numbers managed to rival those of Biden or were at least high enough to be in the mix with him and Warren + Sanders, I would def consider switching to supporting one of them instead. 

Tulsi mainly for her get-out-of-the-fucking-Middle-East position, 
Klobuchar mainly for her Lets-all-calm-down-and-accomplish-things-at-a-bipartisan-level 

Klobuchar reminds me of a school principal who is a fantastic mediator and handler of affairs, Tulsi reminds me of the teacher not afraid to stand up and call out bullshit. 

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@Imabench
I didn't know that about Klobuchar, your description, that could definitely sway me.