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@HistoryBuff
That's not the point. You failed to address the 2nd question.
Israeli Settlements Legal
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@Greyparrot
That's not the point. You failed to address the 2nd question.
So your point is that unless success is 100% guaranteed, no attempts should be made at all to seek peace? That is a very weird point that seems like it is intended to keep wars going forever.
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@HistoryBuff
Still not addressing the 2nd question. You can spin that wheel for another 70 years I guess.
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@Greyparrot
Still not addressing the 2nd question. You can spin that wheel for another 70 years I guess.
Your question is why do I think the palestinians would agree to peace. But that is a stupid question. The much better question is why the hell aren't we pushing them to continue to process.
Israel feels like it has nothing to gain from peace. It gets everything it wants from the status quo. There will be no new talks until they feel they need to. So peace is literally impossible until Israel feels like it has to negotiate. Will the palestinians refuse to talk? will they insist on impossible demands? that is entirely possible. But until Israel is willing to negotiate we can't possibly know.
And continuously framing it as the palestinians are the problem does not, in any way, help the situation.
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@HistoryBuff
Still not addressing the 2nd question. I know you can read post 26 and not do a Cathy "so what you are saying is" bullshit.
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@Greyparrot
Still not addressing the 2nd question. I know you can read post 26 and not do a Cathy "so what you are saying is" bullshit.
Your question is wrong though. it is a distraction intended to push responsibility onto the side that currently has no power. There is no way to know if the palestinians would be willing to negotiate in good faith until you try. The Israeli's have no intention of trying. The ball is in Israel's court and you want to try to shift it to somehow being on the Palestinians.
If Israel tries and it goes nowhere, then fine it is on the Palestinians. But refusing to negotiate while still setting up more and more illegal settlements makes it Isreal's fault right now.
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@HistoryBuff
Your question is wrong though.
Don't use that as an excuse. On the microscopic chance that the question is a valid and important question to answer, what is your response?
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@Greyparrot
Don't use that as an excuse. On the microscopic chance that the question is a valid and important question to answer, what is your response?
My response is that the question is stupid. You want me to prove that the Palestinians would be open to negotiations as a precondition to the Israeli's (the ones who hold all the cards) actually trying to talk to them.
You are actively trying to shift the conversation to blame the Palestinians when they don't actually have much power at the moment. It's a little bit like when you hear a girl got raped you ask "well what was she wearing". There is no value in answering the question. It is only intended to distract people.
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@HistoryBuff
THAT'S NOT WHAT THE FUCKING QUESTION IS CATHY!
Here I will repaste it for you.
What do you think has happened in Palestine recently to make you believe they won't walk away AGAIN?
AGAIN means this has happened many times as a matter of historical fact. Jesus Christ Cathy.
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@Greyparrot
What do you think has happened in Palestine recently to make you believe they won't walk away AGAIN?
How many times can i repeat this for you. I don't know if they will or not. They might. But since Israel has all the power at the moment and they are continuing to illegally expand their settlements, the onus needs to be on them to negotiate. If they don't feel like they have to, peace is impossible.
So I repeat. Your question is an irrelevant distraction to point blame away from where it should be.
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@HistoryBuff
This is so insane. You're still answering a question I have not asked. I never asked if Palestine would or would not walk away.
This is surreal. How can you not comprehend a simple question? What whacky dysfunction is going on here?
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@HistoryBuff
Really? I thought you said they liked the status quo? The status quo is not peace.Israel feels like it has nothing to gain from peace.
Right now Israel has to deal with works opinion, the threat to its citizens, and the cost of security. Of course it doesn't want the status quo. It's just stupid to say it does.
Let the Palestinians see that the land is NOT theirs, and that it will never be theirs, especially not by force of arms. And then they will come to reality and try to actually seek peace.
Let them sack Hama's, and stop the self-defeating terror tactics, and peace will naturally flow.
If Israel give the Palestinians all the land they say is theirs, and kept completely out of their business, rockets would still be raining down on Israel within a year of a 2 state solution.
@Swagnarok
That was an interesting solution. But at the time Obama was in office and allowed Russia to outsmart him in Syria.
But the Palestinians would have refused outright, insisting that Israel is their land.
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@Greyparrot
What whacky dysfunction is going on here?
The liberal's reality blinders automatically protecting him from having to address reality.
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@ethang5
Just as a thought exercise I will ask you the same question to see if you can comprehend it, with a few words changed since I don't know your position on Palestine.But the Palestinians would have refused outright, insisting that Israel is their land.
What do you think has happened in Palestine recently that indicates Palestine would not walk away again?
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@Greyparrot
Absolutely nothing.
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@ethang5
Wow, you understood the question and gave an answer. Unreal.
Not saying I agree with your opinion, I am just amazed that there was nothing unclear to you about the question.
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@Greyparrot
This is so insane. You're still answering a question I have not asked. I never asked if Palestine would or would not walk away.This is surreal. How can you not comprehend a simple question? What whacky dysfunction is going on here?
Your exact question was "What do you think has happened in Palestine recently to make you believe they won't walk away AGAIN?"
I have repeatedly said I don't know that they won't. Maybe they will. that isn't the point. That is a completely useless question. Why do you keep insisting on it?
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@HistoryBuff
It's totally not a useless question because if the status quo is for Palestine to reject and walk away from any peace offering that does not include eliminating Israel, then there can be no peace.
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@Greyparrot
It's totally not a useless question because if the status quo is for Palestine to reject and walk away from any peace offering that does not include eliminating Israel, then there can be no peace.
Their demands in the very negotiation you linked (the 2000 camp david summit) very clearly did not call for the the elimination of Israel. so your right wing talking point is bullshit. Do bombastic politicians say stuff like that, probably. Have they seriously tried to negotiate with the starting point that Israel should cease to exist? no.
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@HistoryBuff
Ok, expert. What did the Palestines want and were refused that caused them to walk away?
1) Both the Israelis and the Americans were naive in expecting that Arafat would agree to give up the idea of a literal "right of return" for all Palestinians into Israel proper no matter how many 1948 refugees or how much monetary compensation Israel offered to allow.
2) Yasir Arafat apparently was indeed unwilling, no matter what the Israeli concessions, to sign an agreement that declared itself final and forswore any further Palestinian claims."
3) What Arafat really wanted was "a one-state solution. Not independent, adjacent Israeli and Palestinian states, but a single Arab state encompassing all of Historic Palestine (Elimination of the Nation of Israel)
The changes happening in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria are a bad omen for the Palestinians.
The new generation in the Arab world is obviously not buying the old jihadi worldview.
It's amazing how many young Arab men are online looking for American women.
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@ethang5
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced Monday the U.S. is changing its position on Israeli settlements in the West Bank, dismissing the State Department's 1978 legal opinion that civilian settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are "inconsistent with international law."
Wouldn't this need to be determined by an actual International Court?
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@Greyparrot
Both the Israelis and the Americans were naive in expecting that Arafat would agree to give up the idea of a literal "right of return" for all Palestinians into Israel proper no matter how many 1948 refugees or how much monetary compensation Israel offered to allow.
Agreed. this appears to have been a sticking point.
Yasir Arafat apparently was indeed unwilling, no matter what the Israeli concessions, to sign an agreement that declared itself final and forswore any further Palestinian claims.
There is no actual evidence of this. One guy claimed this was true after the conference had fallen apart and people had started trying to pin the blame on the Palestinians.
What Arafat really wanted was "a one-state solution. Not independent, adjacent Israeli and Palestinian states, but a single Arab state encompassing all of Historic Palestine (Elimination of the Nation of Israel)
Again. 1 guy after the conference said that. there is no evidence of that. In fact they had already agreed to the lines of the 2 states (for the most part). So saying they didn't want the thing they had already agreed to is obviously bullshit.
And all of this is just rehashing into what happened 20 years ago. We have no idea what their position is now because israel has no intention of finding out.
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@HistoryBuff
Agreed. this appears to have been a sticking point.
No shit Sherlock. Right of return would mean a cultural end to the Israeli nation.
So what has changed recently in Palestine?
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@HistoryBuff
We have no idea what their position is now because Israel has no intention of finding out.
Actually, Palestine has recently made their position clear, so your position is moot.
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@Greyparrot
Jesus, you are just a broken record aren't you? I give up. You clearly just want to try to pin blame on Palestinians and not acknowledge that Israel is blocking the peace process.
Between Ethang's wild bigotry and you just repeating the same useless question over and over and over no matter how many times I explain it is the wrong question, this has been a very useless discussion.
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@HistoryBuff
What are you smoking bud. Palestine has already walked away from the table before it has even been set up. Don't you do any research at all?
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@HistoryBuff
What has changed recently in Palestine?