Talking to God

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11.28.2018 04:50PM

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@Castin

So what does that mean in regard to your acceptance or rejection of modern divine miracles? Which there are sometimes reports of. Do you believe these are mere rumor?

With God, all things are possible that are within His nature, so miracles are still possible. God still answers prayer. But I do not believe the gifts are evident as in the first century. God's word and His grace are sufficient for our needs. So, I don't see the kinds of miracles God used to spread Christianity now prevalent in our day. I don't see believers going into hospitals and healing the sick or raising the dead. God still has a purpose for suffering, that good will come of it. When there is no hope there is still one - God. One thing I do see still that I believe is a miracle is God's gift of salvation and the transforming power to change a life. Without God's transforming power we are hostile to Him and do our own thing. Faith comes from hearing the message. Some have ears to hear and others do not want to hear.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NASB)
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I do not know what you are thinking unless you express your thoughts to me, but you know your own thoughts.

Unless God expresses His thoughts to you then you will not know God intimately, only about Him.

With faith in Jesus, repentance takes place and God, through His Spirit opens our hearts and minds to His eternal truths. Jesus, the Son, is the means He has chosen to do so for a number of reasons. Since God is holy and pure sin separates us from an intimate relationship with Him. But Jesus lived a sin free life on behalf of those who would believe, thus satisfying God's righteousness. He also took the death that we deserved upon Himself, satisfying God's justice. When we truly trust in Jesus and His accomplishments (there is nothing of ourselves to boast about) we start our journey to understanding God. We study His word to show ourselves approved and to understand Him more fully. It is a growth process towards spiritual maturity. As we study God opens up to us the deeper thoughts He expresses. We start to see the spiritual truths His word conveys.

When I read the Bible I see the spiritual truths of Jesus on almost every page. The OT points towards Him and the NT looks back to Him. There are types and shadows of Jesus that convey spiritual truths in the physical reality of the OT.

#92

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11.28.2018 04:51PM

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@Castin

And also, as someone who talks to God, do you believe everyone's account of God talking to them?

No, I do not. There are many inconsistencies. Even in our dialog together I have to be sure I rightly understand what you are expressing to me to understand you. We have to do likewise with God.

Different religions have contradictory accounts of what God is like. Therefore they cannot all be true. Even if all the blind men all touch the elephant and describe it differently, it does not change what the elephant really is. One may say it is LIKE a tree trunk when they touch the leg, but they fail to get the overall picture by just touching one part of it.

If we do not worship God as He really is then we worship an idol, something we construct that misrepresents Him.

John 4:23-24 (NASB)

23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

We are called to worship God as He really is, not how we make Him to be. All regions but one worship God as they construct Him to be instead of how He is. God calls us to put away our idols and false constructs and worship Him as He is. Jesus came to make the Father known for who He was, not who the Jews had constructed Him to be.

Since God is Spirit we must worship Him with our spirits since we are made in His image and likeness. But we must worship Him in truth, as He truly is. To do anything less is to commit idolatry. Even believers in Jesus are capable of this when they stray from His path and His leading.

When you read the Bible look for His meaning, not the meaning you want to read into the text. Then you will hear His voice. But, to do this you must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who trust Him. How could you ever believe Him unless you believed He existed?

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

If you do not believe the underlined then how would you ever believe in God who you can't see?

My faith is not a blind faith. I do not trust in Him for no reasons but because everything I see speaks to me of Him. I often ask an atheist to explain how morality is anything but relative and subjective and therefore meaningless unless God exists. I do not see them making good sense of it. They keep borrowing from the Christian framework in making sense of morals. There is no reason why a random chance universe would have meaning in it. Yet, in everything we do and in all we discover about it we continue to find this meaning.

9 days later

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#93

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12.08.2018 07:51AM

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@PGA2.0

So does that mean you sometimes doubt even the accounts of God reported by some of your fellow Christians?

#94

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12.08.2018 08:21AM

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@Castin

I find the most effective ways for me are contemplative prayers like the rosary, or lectio divina. The Holy Rosary is a meditative prayer, wherein you repeat the Hail Mary, the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, the doxology, etc. That's usually all that non-Catholics see of the Rosary, and all that they think it is: repetition. But the heart of the Rosary, what gives it is power as a prayer, are the Mysteries, and they are invisible to most observers. Each day you pray five decades, and through each decade you meditate on one of five mysteries, using the prayer as a way to focus. Examples of subjects for mediation are the visitation in the garden, the proclamation of the Kingdom, the Annunciation, the Crucifixion, the scourging at the pillar, the crowning with thorns, the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, etc. All of these have a 'lesson' or 'virtue' meant to be gleaned: the scouring reminds us not to commit sins of the flesh, the crowning with thorns warns us against pride, the visitation speaks of love for neighbor, the resurrection of hope.

Lectio Divina is a form of sacred reading perfected by the Carthusian Monks. They are an ancient group of communal hermits, who give up all worldly possessions and almost all contact with the outside world. They practice an extreme form of humility, being buried almost anonymously, and spending most of their life in their 'cell', a small, very simple home with an attached walled garden. Here they work enough to support themselves and study, joining with their brothers only for mass and walks through the woods or mountains. Lectio divina is their process of reading which regards the Bible as the Living Word, and is less focused on a theological parsing as it is on a confrontation of God within the Word. It has four steps. The first is to simply prepare yourself through a small meditation, and to read the passage. The second is to meditate on what was read, which is less about thinking about the passage than it is letting the true meaning of it seep into your marrow. After that comes prayer, which is the conversation part, and then the part where God 'speaks back' is the final stage, Contemplation. This is where the profound encounter with God occurs, and it really is a profound experience that can't be communicated well in words. Just imagine that anything good or beautiful in life is a reflection of God, and that to be in a state of contemplation is to see all of those pieces with perfect, utter clarity for a few moments.

#95

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12.08.2018 06:53PM

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@Castin

So does that mean you sometimes doubt even the accounts of God reported by some of your fellow Christians?

Yes, if you want the quick version.

God's word is our blueprint. I test what is said to it. As I read what is said passages of Scripture come to mind that may question what they say. Also, if what I say does not conform to His word it should be rejected. God's grace is sufficient for us as Christians since His word is established and true. We, as Christians, are to study it to rightly discern it. It has accomplished what God sent it out to do. It is a witness from God to humanity. God speaks to humanity through the pages of Scripture. It provides salvation to those who hear the message and believe. It requires humility (for we have sinned against God) and a heart like a little child (to believe), but its message is eternal, it stands forever.

Romans 3:4

May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “That You may be justified in Your words, And prevail when You are judged.”

Hebrews 6:16-19 (NASB)

16 For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

1 Corinthians 13 (NASB)
The Excellence of Love

13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

So, all these gifts God bestowed on men, including miracles to bring and establish His Gospel message, were destined to disappear. What remains is His word as our witness and the love that comes from it.

That definition of love is the finest I have ever read. The message could be summed up in a couple of passages:

Mark 8:36

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?

1 John 4:8

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

If you read the whole of 1 John 4 the message is amplified further. Test the spirit to see if the spirit (or what is said) is from God. And for those Christians who have not matured in the faith as much as others teach and rebuke in love if they are ready to hear. Show them where they misinterpret what God has said if they are ready for more than the milk of the word but are ready for the meat or deeper things of His word.

I say like a little child because many recall as a child how they listened and believed and trusted what their mom and dad said to them. So in that aspect, we are to be as little children before God, as innocent as doves in the grace of Jesus Christ, yet as wise as serpents in the world (if you understand the illustration).

But when we grow up we test all things as to their truthfulness. We see the wickedness of this world, as well as some of the good in it.

PS. I like the NASB. It is a good literal translation from the original languages to English and does not speak in an archaic language like the KJV, so it is more readable to today's audience.

#96

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12.08.2018 07:09PM

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@Castin

Having said all that, I do not doubt that God still performs miracles. His providence allows things to happen both good and bad to believers in this world. Yet, as believers, we have overcome the world. Why I did not die in that car accident I do not know, but I am grateful for God was gracious and merciful to me. These circumstances and others led me to Him.

#97

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12.09.2018 04:21AM

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@PGA2.0

So your god gave you some pennies and saved your life in a car crash but is incapable of helping the starving children of Yemen. Your god prefers to help privileged Americans. What a wonderful god.

#98

Stephen

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Stephen

12.09.2018 07:29AM

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@PGA2.0

Having said all that, I do not doubt that God still performs miracles. His providence allows things to happen both good and bad to believers in this world.

You say this as if only those who believe in god and Jesus and miracles can do benevolent acts. This is what I just cannot stand about you lot. You believe that you have the monopoly on morals and ethics, believing only the " devout religious" can perform good deeds. I am not religious in the slightest. But I do and my family does perform "good deeds" on a daily basis, without having to be prompted to do so by Jesus or a god or a hypocrite preacher.

Topic's author

#99

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12.09.2018 03:32PM

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@ResurgetExFavilla

I find the most effective ways for me are contemplative prayers like the rosary, or lectio divina. The Holy Rosary is a meditative prayer, wherein you repeat the Hail Mary, the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, the doxology, etc. That's usually all that non-Catholics see of the Rosary, and all that they think it is: repetition. But the heart of the Rosary, what gives it is power as a prayer, are the Mysteries, and they are invisible to most observers. Each day you pray five decades, and through each decade you meditate on one of five mysteries, using the prayer as a way to focus. Examples of subjects for mediation are the visitation in the garden, the proclamation of the Kingdom, the Annunciation, the Crucifixion, the scourging at the pillar, the crowning with thorns, the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, etc. All of these have a 'lesson' or 'virtue' meant to be gleaned: the scouring reminds us not to commit sins of the flesh, the crowning with thorns warns us against pride, the visitation speaks of love for neighbor, the resurrection of hope.

Lectio Divina is a form of sacred reading perfected by the Carthusian Monks. They are an ancient group of communal hermits, who give up all worldly possessions and almost all contact with the outside world. They practice an extreme form of humility, being buried almost anonymously, and spending most of their life in their 'cell', a small, very simple home with an attached walled garden. Here they work enough to support themselves and study, joining with their brothers only for mass and walks through the woods or mountains. Lectio divina is their process of reading which regards the Bible as the Living Word, and is less focused on a theological parsing as it is on a confrontation of God within the Word. It has four steps. The first is to simply prepare yourself through a small meditation, and to read the passage. The second is to meditate on what was read, which is less about thinking about the passage than it is letting the true meaning of it seep into your marrow. After that comes prayer, which is the conversation part, and then the part where God 'speaks back' is the final stage, Contemplation. This is where the profound encounter with God occurs, and it really is a profound experience that can't be communicated well in words. Just imagine that anything good or beautiful in life is a reflection of God, and that to be in a state of contemplation is to see all of those pieces with perfect, utter clarity for a few moments.

Wow. This was pretty fascinating. Surprised I hadn't heard about the Carthusians. Also I really wouldn't have pegged you as Catholic leaning.

So when you meditate upon the rosary and the Mysteries, do you feel a sense of talking to God? From your description, it sounds like what you're connecting with are God's lessons and teachings. Is that the same as communicating directly with God to you? Is there ever a conversation going on, where you say something and he says something back?

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#100

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12.09.2018 06:02PM

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@PGA2.0

I must agree, it's a lovely description of love (that I certainly sometimes fail to live up to). I also like Mark 8:36 and 1 John 4:8.

So -- and sorry to keep questioning you in further detail, it's a subject I find interesting -- let's say you had lived as a contemporary of Joan of Arc, a devout Christian who claimed that God spoke to her, telling her it was his will that she help lead France to victory against England. Judging her claim against the "blueprint" of the Bible, would you have believed her?

#101

Paul

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Paul

12.09.2018 07:36PM

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@Castin

If you hear god talking to you ask your doctor for haloperidol.

It will enhance your experience in ways you never thought possible.

#102

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12.09.2018 09:40PM

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@Castin

I must agree, it's a lovely description of love (that I certainly sometimes fail to live up to). I also like Mark 8:36 and 1 John 4:8.

So -- and sorry to keep questioning you in further detail, it's a subject I find interesting -- let's say you had lived as a contemporary of Joan of Arc, a devout Christian who claimed that God spoke to her, telling her it was his will that she help lead France to victory against England. Judging her claim against the "blueprint" of the Bible, would you have believed her?

I welcome your questions, not that I have answers to all or even most. I see the charity and kindness of expression in your thoughts, which is refreshing. I do not see an agenda at all costs but an honest inquiry in testing my worldview claims.

I believe some wars are just. War was necessary to stop Hitler. I do not know enough of her story to make a decision at present. I have not done much reading on her or the culture of the time. There are too many people who have visions that go counter to His word. Thus, I am a skeptic, not so much of her faith in believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, but in believing something such as a vision by the archangel Michael. Such visions I see as ceasing in AD 70. With God such things are possible, but they are not the norm like they were during the 1st-century and the spread of Christianity. God's word and grace are sufficient for the believer to do all that He has purposed, the saving of our souls.

I'm shy and weary of a lot of things claimed in the name of God and can only recount my own experience on the subject.

I used to have a friend who claimed to be a "Word of Faith" or what some call a "name it and claim it" believer. I struggled with his teachings for years, questioning them and praying about them and their truth content. Finally, after much prayer and answers, the Bible became clearer to me on such teachings and I rejected these claims. I did not see any witness of what he claimed believers should be able to do, yet he had claimed to have done some of these acts he spoke of. He believed that one day he would be able to go into a hospital and do what the first-century disciples did in healing the sick, and yes, even raising the dead. He also believed that believers should be the richest people on earth, yet he lived a pretty meager existence.

His one teaching was that we could lose our salvation. This, more than any other of his teachings, was the most bothersome to me. I asked, "if God saves you then how can you be lost?" His response was that we can take ourselves out of God's hands by our will and turn from our faith. He provided many scriptural texts that seem to support his view of salvation, although I kept bringing up verses that contradicted it. He seemed to have an answer. This was kept in prayer, along with his other teachings for around two years, but there was always doubt of whether what he was saying rang true (I was testing the spirit and teaching). Then, one day, as I think I expressed to you before, I read the NT through from Matthew to Revelation and what I continued to notice on most pages was who was doing the action (God) and who was receiving it (the believer). So if God saves, how can I be lost? If I have truly trusted in Him then He is able to save me and change me. I certainly can't save myself. I recognize my wrongs. I am at His mercy and grace. I can't boast before Him. He is perfect. I am flawed. But I can boast on what His Son has done for me!

Matthew 1:21

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Notice who is saving. It is not the believer who saves himself but Jesus. We receive the gift of salvation from Him.

Ephesians 2:7-9 (NASB)
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Passage after passage sprang out to me about who was doing the saving and it was not I; it was not my good works. Therefore salvation did not depend on what I did. It depended on faith in another. All the action was done by Him through His grace and mercy. Through grace, we have been saved, and this is not of ourselves but it is God's gift to us in His Son who lived that righteous life we could not so as to reconcile us to Him.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Passage after passage confirms the same message. Notice who is doing the action. and who receives it whenever you read the Bible.

God speaks through the pages of the Bible. His thoughts interact with our thoughts through His word.

I don't know how I would have responded in the France of her times. Sometimes Christians get wrapped up in the culture of the times. I have been guilty of this many times.

Having said that, I can test what someone says to God's word. Jesus instructed His followers to be the light and salt of the earth, to shine a light in the darkness. Sometimes that requires going against the values of the culture at large, even though the instruction is to obey rulers and authorities unless they go against God's word, then we are to shine a light on the injustice, show why it is wrong. (Romans 13)

#103

Bifolkal

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Bifolkal

12.09.2018 10:10PM

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@Castin

If i talk to god, it's only in Spanish...you'd think he'd be like an Aramaic speaker or maybe Hebrew...turns out, Spanish this guy.
Dios is pretty powerful when he habla.

#104

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12.11.2018 09:55AM

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@Castin

Well, I say things but I don't hear a voice. That's really, really, rare, and usually involves some sort of apparition or command to carry out a great holy work.

#105

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12.11.2018 02:00PM

I've talked but I think I just hear my own mind answering. Tbh there's no point in talking because if there is a God then he's not likely to interfere, I mean why would a God do that, just because we want whatever it is we want?

Remember as a child wanting a toy or something so badly (probably have to be old like me since kids now a days get way too much stuff) the emotions were quit real and strong, however our parents knew that we'd be fine w/o it and there were more important things etc. If there's a heaven/after life then this one is extremely trivial compared to that so no intervention is needed, fmpov.

#106

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12.12.2018 02:18AM

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@TheDredPriateRoberts

Why would there be a heaven/afterlife?

#107

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/if

12.12.2018 02:21AM

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@disgusted

did the word "if" trip you up?

here ya go

#108

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12.12.2018 02:35AM

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@TheDredPriateRoberts

WHY would there be a heaven/afterlife?

#109

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12.12.2018 02:45AM

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@disgusted

there are many theories ask mustardness

#110

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12.12.2018 03:15AM

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@TheDredPriateRoberts

Fear of death being the most likely.

#111

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12.12.2018 03:21AM

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@disgusted

if you say so

#112

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12.12.2018 03:44AM

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@TheDredPriateRoberts

Are you afraid of the question? You haven't made an attempt at answering, is it because you can't think of a reason and you are content with indoctrination? Or is it because you can't think of a reason that makes any sense at all?

#113

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12.12.2018 12:38PM

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@disgusted

post #109 is your answer, your difficultly comprehending simple short sentences is sad

WHY would there be a heaven/afterlife?

there are many theories

does that help, that's as much hand holding that I can do.

#114

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12.12.2018 01:57PM

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@Castin

Do you only talk to God about money?

Yes, only winning the lottery and God/Universe does reply to me.

If you're praying to the Christian God as described by the Bible, I have doubts he would be especially receptive to material greed.

"Christian God" is a placebo effect for some and others it is just a way to fit in with community in order to be accepted into the community.

Some lab studies show the placebo effect to be effective 10% of the time.

Woman { Xx } God-ess-ence ex mass-attractive{ omin-considerate } gravity ( ) that i speculate a positively shaped ( ) geodesic gravitational ( ) Space ( ) and has a diametric opposite shape as negatively shaped )( and repulsive, dark energy )( Space

...see torus horizontal view of bisected torus ( )( ) or birds-eye-view of bisected torus ( ( ) )..............

Man { Xy } as God-ism ex EMRadiation { dispersive } as associated with observed reality and sine-wave patterns /\/\/ or as ^v^v

#115

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12.12.2018 02:11PM

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@disgusted

DPirate--there are many theories ask mustardness

Yes, and there all based upon factual observations with conclusions arrived at via rational, logical common sense.

The latter being not a common find at DDO and DArt.

Ive never made any statements regarding any heaven or afterlife.

Biological life comes from synergetic integration with sometimes acesss to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Biological death is entropic disintegration with total loss of access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

1} Human { observer },

2} Conceptualizes a finite Universe/God,

3} Via occupied space nervous system,

4} that they conceptually place themselves OUT-side of so as to look back IN-ward upon, as if they were God-ism{ male } holding the whole finite Universe/God in their conceptual hands.

We got the whole wide Universe in our hands,

We go the whole wide Universe in our hands ,

Sing it with me ,

We go the whole wide Universe in our hands

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This following is the Cosmic Trinity ouline/list. Then there are a few sub-trinities --not all are listed.

..ex fermions, bosons and a new third, hybrid{?} of those two.....

There exists the one finite, eternally existent finite Uni-V-erse, that is eternally complemented by;

1} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts, ex ego i/I and,

2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space,

3a,b,c} spirit-2, Uni-V-erse i.e. occupied space as fermions bosons and any aggregate collection thereof.

...plus a new third catagory that is some kind of hybrid of fermion and boson....

......3d} spirit-3, metaphysical-4, positive ( ) shaped gravity ( )

......3e} spirit-4, metaphysical-4, negative )( shaped dark energy )(

SPACE(>*<) i (>*<)SPACE

The truth exists for those who seek it, those who dont and those who scoff at it.

#116

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12.13.2018 06:24AM

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@ResurgetExFavilla

Just a curious, unrelated question.

What convinced you to become Catholic? Specifically, why did you stop being atheist and why was Catholicism the specific path you took in terms of religious belief?

#117

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Posts: 1,979

12.13.2018 10:34PM

...Oops I left out the word NOT in this line of text..." Yes, only winning the lottery and God/Universe does NOT reply to me."

If God/Universe is replying to me, I'm not aware of it. There are some ingest-able substances that may provide a pathway to such messages from God/Universe if they exist. I dunno.

Terrenance McKenna thought he was getting messages critters in another hyper-dimension.

Terrance thought human access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts occurred via apes eating magic shrooms. I dunno.

#118

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12.14.2018 06:50AM

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@Tejretics

I did a lot of reading, not just into Catholicism but into a lot of faiths. Long story short, I had written Christianity off because of mostly Protestant stuff, which I found completely incoherent (from big doctrinal points like sola scriptura and sola fide down to a lot of the smaller theological points and the entire church culture). When I came around to finally studying Catholicism, I found that all of the doctrines knit together a lot more neatly. In readings of history I also started to notice and deconstruct 'black legend' narratives that are so present in English-language histories. A good example of this is the history of witch hunts in Europe, which I read an interesting scholarly study on. When you look at the actual history instead of fairy tales and pop culture, the Catholic church strongly curtailed and discouraged witch hunts, holding since at least Saint Augustine that witches don't present a danger against the Church because they don't possess any power that could injure Her. When the famous anti-witch book Maleus Maleficarum was written by Heinrich Kramer, the church excommunicated him and banned the book. Witch hunts tended to be less intense where the church held power (Italian cities), and more intense in rural areas and those which had adopted Protestantism. But most Westerners go through life with this mental image that the Catholic church was going around throwing every herb woman into a pond, when literally the exact opposite was true.

So once I dispensed with this propagandistic view of the Church I started to read more and more Catholic intellectuals. I was especially moved by the works of Chesterton and Belloc, who I read originally for economic reasons. So that was the intellectual side of it. The faith-based side had more to do with personal experience/encounters with God that don't really make for convincing argumentation, as you can't communicate a profound experience like that in a way which would convince a skeptic. I always go back to Saint Anthony the Great's encounter with the Greek philosophers. It also supports my earlier point about witch hunts and bad historiography, as Saint Anthony, speaking here very early in Christianity's history, explictly states the Church doctrine that witchcraft has no strength before the Cross.

"Antony smiled and said—again through an interpreter—‘Sight itself carries the conviction of these things. But as you prefer to lean upon demonstrative arguments, and as you, having this art, wish us also not to worship God, until after such proof, do you tell first how things in general and specially the recognition of God are accurately known. Is it through demonstrative argument or the working of faith? And which is better, faith which comes through the inworking (of God) or demonstration by arguments?’ And when they answered that faith which comes through the inworking was better and was accurate knowledge, Antony said, ‘You have answered well, for faith arises from disposition of soul, but dialectic from the skill of its inventors. Wherefore to those who have the inworking through faith, demonstrative argument is needless, or even superfluous. For what we know through faith this you attempt to prove through words, and often you are not even able to express what we understand. So the inworking through faith is better and stronger than your professional arguments.’

'We Christians therefore hold the mystery not in the wisdom of Greek arguments, but in the power of faith richly supplied to us by God through Jesus Christ. And to show that this statement is true, behold now, without having learned letters, we believe in God, knowing through His works His providence over all things. And to show that our faith is effective, so now we are supported by faith in Christ, but you by professional logomachies. The portents of the idols among you are being done away, but our faith is extending everywhere. You by your arguments and quibbles have converted none from Christianity to Paganism. We, teaching the faith on Christ, expose your superstition, since all recognise that Christ is God and the Son of God. You by your eloquence do not hinder the teaching of Christ. But we by the mention of Christ crucified put all demons to flight, whom you fear as if they were gods. Where the sign of the Cross is, magic is weak and witchcraft has no strength."

To be honest I'm glad to not be an atheist any more because (in the US especially) atheism has developed into this weird cottage industry of smug intellectual kitsch. I hated telling someone that I was an atheist and then being instantly associated with people whom I have nothing in common with, philosophically. I've always liked some atheist thinkers, such as Hoffer and Santayana, but they don't make em like they used to.

#119

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12.14.2018 06:57AM

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@ResurgetExFavilla

All of that is interesting and makes sense.

To be honest I'm glad to not be an atheist any more because (in the US especially) atheism has developed into this weird cottage industry of smug intellectual kitsch.

I agree with this.

I usually just identify as “non-religious,” for the same reason.

#120

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