...it is you who choose not to believe God

Author: 3RU7AL ,

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  • 3RU7AL
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    Belief is not a "choice" any more than love is a "choice".

    YOu CAN "choose" to follow someone or "choose" to DO or NOT-do some particular thing.

    You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.

    I can't stop believing in air.

    I can't stop believing in water.

    I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

    I can't "choose" to believe in unicorns.

    Belief is simply NOT a "choice".


    For example,

    I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.

    I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

    I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

    If you ask me "is this or that specific space-alien (gods) logically possible?" - YOU'RE GOING TO NEED TO BE VERY SPECIFIC.
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    You need more substantiation than that. You haven't necessarily created a sufficient explanation as to how belief excludes choice.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    You need more substantiation than that. You haven't necessarily created a sufficient explanation as to how belief excludes choice.
    Can you stop believing in air?

    Can you stop believing in water?

    Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

    Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

    Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?

    You're either CONVINCED or NOT.
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Can you stop believing in air?

    Can you stop believing in water?

    Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

    Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

    Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?
    Yes. But, you're still not explaining how belief excludes choice.

    You're either CONVINCED or NOT.
    Does this not make scrutiny and criticism futile?
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

    Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

    Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?
    Yes. But, you're still not explaining how belief excludes choice.
    I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

    I'm simply not convinced.

    And as much as I try to "take you at your word", I also can't "choose" to believe YOU can arbitrarily decide to believe in Santa Claus.

    I'm simply not convinced.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    You're either CONVINCED or NOT.
    Does this not make scrutiny and criticism futile?
    No.

    It simply highlights the Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence "problem".
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    People can seem to "choose" to believe a "trusted-source" BUT ONLY if they are first convinced that their "trusted-source" (genius, prophet, priest) is more reliable than their own judgement.

    This is the root of the problem.

    You should never trust (or distrust) any person or book 100%.
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.
    But you have "chosen" to reject the premise on which Santa Clause is based. Every time you think about Santa Clause and reject his mere notion, you're making a choice. To deny that is to reject that you're a rational agent capable of processing and discriminating information. Your acceptance of certain notions, I wouldn't doubt, contains emotional content, but you can still choose how it manifests.

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.
    But you have "chosen" to reject the premise on which Santa Clause is based. Every time you think about Santa Clause and reject his mere notion, you're making a choice. To deny that is to reject that you're a rational agent capable of processing and discriminating information. Your acceptance of certain notions, I wouldn't doubt, contains emotional content, but you can still choose how it manifests.
    I'm still not convinced.

    I can't "choose" to be convinced.

    I'm either convinced or not convinced.

    You still don't believe in Santa Claus.
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    I'm still not convinced.

    I can't "choose" to be convinced.

    I'm either convinced or not convinced.

    You still don't believe in Santa Claus.
    So, is being convinced to you primarily about emotional content?
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.


    Why can't you?

    I can't stop believing in air.

    You can, but you would look pretty silly not to.

    I can't stop believing in water.

    You can, but you would look pretty silly not to.

    I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

    You can, but you would look pretty silly .

    I can't "choose" to believe in unicorns.

    You can, but you would look pretty silly .

    Belief is simply NOT a "choice".
    Why do you say that.?

    For example,

    I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.
    Why can't you?

    I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

    That is a choice.

    I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.
    That too is a choice.

    Do you  not see how you have contradicted yourself multiple times ?

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    What I am saying is that cognitive dissonance will allow the 'believer' to believe in lies. Since they Choose to ignore the Truth, then they chose to Believe, instead of Know.

    "Vaccines are dangerous, here is the evidence"
    "No, I don't believe it, I BELIEVE my Doctor."
    Did they choose to Believe, by choosing to Disbelieve?
    Good point. People can seem to "choose" to believe a "trusted-source" BUT ONLY if they are first convinced that their "trusted-source" (genius, prophet, priest, doctor, expert) is more reliable than their own judgement.

    This is the root of the problem.

    You should never trust (or distrust) any person or book 100%. [LINK]
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    Dear Stephen,

    Please choose to believe in Santa Claus.

    Right now.

    Just for kicks.

    But it only counts if your belief is 100% sincere.

    Have you done it yet?

    Do you feel the magic?

    Let me know when you believe in Santa Claus.

    I can't choose to believe in Santa Claus.

    I need to be CONVINCED.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    Do you  not see how you have contradicted yourself multiple times ?
    Please be slightly more specific.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    So, is being convinced to you primarily about emotional content?
    Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    I have been pretty clear. Just read my responses and see how they and yourself contradict what you say.

    Example, you say here;

     (A)  I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

    and here you say:
     
     (B)  I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

    yet here you say;


     [C]  Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

    but you clearly show above at (A) that YOU are choosing to believe something and at (B) YOU are also  choosing NOT to believe something. i.e. YOU have made a "choice" in both cases  but at [C] you clearly state that  belief is simply NOT a choice. 

    What you seem to not be understanding is that anyone can choose to believe anything they dam well like. But, do not get upset when your beliefs to go unchallenged. 

    Now how about you answering my questions above at post #11.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    (A)  I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.
    I am convinced, by EVIDENCE, that there is likely some sort of (NON-SPECIFIC) "life" on other planets and or in other galaxies.

    I choose to say this.

    I do not choose to believe this.
     
     (B)  I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).
    I am UNCONVINCED that any particular, specific space-aliens (gods) exist in any way that is distinguishable from pure-imagination.

    I choose to say this.

    I do not choose to "disbelieve", I'm simply UNCONVINCED.

     [C]  Belief is simply NOT a "choice".
    (IFF) you are convinced that belief is a CHOICE (THEN) simply choose to believe in Santa Claus and let me know when you feel the magic.

    but you clearly show above at (A) that YOU are choosing to believe something
    Nope.

    and at (B) YOU are also  choosing NOT to believe something.
    Nope.

    i.e. YOU have made a "choice" in both cases 
    Nope.

    but at [C] you clearly state that  belief is simply NOT a choice. 
    I repeated it for emphasis.

    What you seem to not be understanding is that anyone can choose to believe anything they dam well like.
    People can only believe what they are CONVINCED of.

    People can SAY they believe or disbelieve in any number of things or ideas, but NOBODY can BELIEVE unless they are CONVINCED.

    But, do not get upset when your beliefs to go unchallenged. 
    Your scathing critique is requested (and greatly appreciated).
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).
    So what is this USOE on which you premise your not being convinced?

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).
    So what is this USOE on which you premise your not being convinced?
    REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.
  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.
    Do you trust this standard 100%?

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.
    Do you trust this standard 100%?
    It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

    I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    (A)  I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.
    I am convinced, by EVIDENCE, that there is likely some sort of (NON-SPECIFIC) "life" on other planets and or in other galaxies.

    I choose to say this.
      Then you have made a choice, haven't you. And above you admit that you have chosen. 

    But  you have also categorically stated in your first post >>>>>>   "Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

    ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................

    Now how about answering my questions


    You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.


    Why can't you?

    .

    Belief is simply NOT a "choice".
    Why do you say that.?


    For example,

    I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.
    Why can't you?






  • Athias
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    --> @3RU7AL
    It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

    I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.
    Then, clearly, you've made a choice. Alternatives denote options among which you've discriminated and placed your trust, even though no one option has earned 100% of your trust.
  • Mopac
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Faith is a choice, and faith is more than simply intellectual assent. Faith is a living thing.

    God is The Truth. So the real question is, what are you choosing in preference to The Truth? There is where you find the idol you prefer to God.

    Simply believing that God exists is not worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. That requires a life of humility, self examination, prayer, and repentance. It is not enough to believe that God exists, the struggle is to abide in The Way, and that necessarily implies work.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Athias
    It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

    I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.
    Then, clearly, you've made a choice. Alternatives denote options among which you've discriminated and placed your trust, even though no one option has earned 100% of your trust.
    I've been CONVINCED.

    I never chose to be CONVINCED.