...it is you who choose not to believe God

Author: 3RU7AL

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@3RU7AL
Faith is not always a confidence for one. Sometimes it is a hope. Sometimes it is simply fidelity.

Faith is not always unjustified either. We go to teachers not because we know what they teach, but to learn. We go to advisers who we believe have a good perspective or knowledge. To that, we have to have faith not for no reason, but because we have been convinced that our faith is justified.

What can I say? I have faith in The Orthodox Church to teach true Christianity above all others. My faith is not unjustified, because they have been around since the beginning and have the surest claim of being the apostolic church. But besides that, I have come to know that the doctrine is enlightened.

Faith is not exclusively confidence, though it can be.
 


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My CONFIDENCE is not unjustified, because I'VE BEEN CONVINCED they have been around since the beginning and have the surest claim of being the apostolic church.
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@3RU7AL
I certainly have confidence in the church that I believe is justified. I wouldn't deny it.

What is that confidence? That The Orthodox Church reliably preserves the Christian faith and church history. On church history, we even record the history of the heterodox! 


But that isn't an unjustified confidence. I understand the church is made up of human beings. Even the Bishops who tend to be very pious people are still human beings. Ultimately, we all share the same faith. That is, in God.

So just as Jesus Christ united in 1 hypostasis there are 2 complete, unconfused, and unmixed natures, that is, that Christ is fully man and fully God, so it is with the church. There is a fleshly nature to it and a divine nature.



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@3RU7AL
Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.

You don't just recall every individual bit of data and re-sequence it according to the mood of the moment.

Your personally held data is already stored in specific sequences and automatically utilised as such.
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@zedvictor4
Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.

You don't just recall every individual bit of data and re-sequence it according to the mood of the moment.

Your personally held data is already stored in specific sequences and automatically utilised as such.
Well stated.
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@3RU7AL
I've been CONVINCED.

I never chose to be CONVINCED.
How would you define "convinced?"
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@zedvictor4
Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.

You don't just recall every individual bit of data and re-sequence it according to the mood of the moment.

Your personally held data is already stored in specific sequences and automatically utilised as such.
Wouldn't this very argument be subject to your proposed metric, diminishing its implied "objectivity" or "inter-subjectivity"?
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Wouldn't this very argument be subject to your proposed metric, diminishing its implied "objectivity" or "inter-subjectivity"?
It applies equally to both "intra-subjective" belief (AND) "inter-subjective" belief.
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I've been CONVINCED.

I never chose to be CONVINCED.
How would you define "convinced?"
Compelling evidence (Uniform Standards Of Evidence, USOE).
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@3RU7AL
It applies equally to both "intra-subjective" belief (AND) "inter-subjective" belief.
I know. So then would the metric not be subject to the metric? Or is this merely being proposed as tautological?

Compelling evidence (Uniform Standards Of Evidence, USOE).
Not exactly what I sought; when you said "being convinced" you were describing yourself. How would define "being convinced"?
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@3RU7AL

As the scriptures say,

"...he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."




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@ Athias

A. What do you assume is my "proposed metric". Perhaps you could clarify.

B. I'm not really a proponent of assumed objectivity. I think that anything intra-subjective, is just that.

C. It's nice when one experiences a moment of inter-subjectivity.
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@Athias
Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.

You don't just recall every individual bit of data and re-sequence it according to the mood of the moment.

Your personally held data is already stored in specific sequences and automatically utilised as such.
Wouldn't this very argument be subject to your proposed metric, diminishing its implied "objectivity" or "inter-subjectivity"?
Please explain what you mean by "your proposed metric".
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@zedvictor4
A. What do you assume is my "proposed metric". Perhaps you could clarify.
Please explain what you mean by "your proposed metric".
This is what I mean:

Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.



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@zedvictor4
B. I'm not really a proponent of assumed objectivity. I think that anything intra-subjective, is just that.
So then what significance does this:


Belief is your evaluation of your personal set of conditioned data.

You were largely programmed to believe most of what you think that you believe.

Once you have been formatively programmed it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme. It's very difficult to change your mind.

You don't just recall every individual bit of data and re-sequence it according to the mood of the moment.

Your personally held data is already stored in specific sequences and automatically utilised as such.
bear to anyone other than you?


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@Athias
Belief is YOUR evaluation of YOUR personal set of conditioned data (INTRA-SUBJECTIVE).

YOU were largely programmed (INCULCATED) to believe most of what you think that you believe (BASE PROGRAMMING, FIRMWARE).

Once YOU have been formatively programmed (INCULCATED, BIOS FLASHED) it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme (FIRMWARE UPDATE). It's very difficult to change your mind (RE-PROGRAM, DE-PROGRAM).

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What? Yes you can. It's very easy to do so actually. 
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So then what significance does this: bear to anyone other than you?
It is a description of my understanding of how the human brain works.

You might find it "useful" to (EITHER) understand how your own brain works (OR) as insight into how to better communicate with me.

Keep in mind, it is the epitome of HUBRIS to share your opinion with another person.

You can't honestly ask, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" without turning that question back on itself (back on yourself).

It's self-defeating.

The "answer" is, (EITHER) you find it interesting (OR) you don't.

Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
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What? Yes you can. It's very easy to do so actually. 
Please elaborate.
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I will elaborate later tonight. At school rn and just glancing

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@3RU7AL
Belief is YOUR evaluation of YOUR personal set of conditioned data (INTRA-SUBJECTIVE).
So then, how is this:

YOU were largely programmed (INCULCATED) to believe most of what you think that you believe (BASE PROGRAMMING, FIRMWARE).

Once YOU have been formatively programmed (INCULCATED, BIOS FLASHED) it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme (FIRMWARE UPDATE). It's very difficult to change your mind (RE-PROGRAM, DE-PROGRAM).
not subject to your first point? Do we share a personal set of conditioned data?

It is a description of my understanding of how the human brain works.
How can you make any conclusions about the human brain, when your belief is constrained to your personal set of conditioned data? What does "human" denote outside of your personally conditioned data?

You might find it "useful" to (EITHER) understand how your own brain works (OR) as insight into how to better communicate with me.
How can you know how "my" brain works?

Keep in mind, it is the epitome of HUBRIS to share your opinion with another person.
How so?

You can't honestly ask, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" without turning that question back on itself (back on yourself).

It's self-defeating.
How so?

The "answer" is, (EITHER) you find it interesting (OR) you don't.
The issue isn't whether I find it interesting; zedvictor proposed a metric of belief to which all are subject, no? Then you argue that it's intrasubjective. So then zedvictor's metric subjects only his own experiences. (Hence, I ask the significance of his metric to anyone other than himself.)  If you're going to argue that it's instead "inter"-subjective, then I ask, what is inter-subjevtivity if not a composite of purely intra-subjective experiences?



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@Athias
Belief is YOUR evaluation of YOUR personal set of conditioned data (INTRA-SUBJECTIVE).
So then, how is this:

YOU were largely programmed (INCULCATED) to believe most of what you think that you believe (BASE PROGRAMMING, FIRMWARE).

Once YOU have been formatively programmed (INCULCATED, BIOS FLASHED) it becomes very difficult to properly re-programme (FIRMWARE UPDATE). It's very difficult to change your mind (RE-PROGRAM, DE-PROGRAM).
not subject to your first point? Do we share a personal set of conditioned data?
We share basic hardware (biological, instinctual) similarities and basic firmware (primary childhood experience) similarities.

This is evidenced by our ability to communicate.  These (inter-subjective) similarities are prerequisite to our intellectual interaction.
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It is a description of my understanding of how the human brain works.
How can you make any conclusions about the human brain, when your belief is constrained to your personal set of conditioned data? What does "human" denote outside of your personally conditioned data?
The "other minds (brains)" hypothesis is a coherent framework for understanding the actions of "others".

Psychology is based on this idea (other minds) and its EFFICACY is established by PROPAGANDA/MARKETING/PUBLIC RELATIONS techniques.

You've been "conditioned" (inculcated, programmed by instinct and primary childhood experiences) similarly to myself (inter-subjectively).
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You might find it "useful" to (EITHER) understand how your own brain works (OR) as insight into how to better communicate with me.
How can you know how "my" brain works?
Because I'm communicating with you.  This logically means our brains must necessarily share basic similarities.
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Keep in mind, it is the epitome of HUBRIS to share your opinion with another person.
How so?
Simply by making a statement (any statement) you are implicitly raising your ego above others.
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You can't honestly ask, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" without turning that question back on itself (back on yourself).

It's self-defeating.
How so?
For example, What significance does the statement, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" bear to anyone other than you?
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The "answer" is, (EITHER) you find it interesting (OR) you don't.
The issue isn't whether I find it interesting;
Ultimately, yes.  Yes, the issue IS whether you find it interesting.

...zedvictor proposed a metric of belief to which all are subject, no?
Generally speaking.  There may be a few exceptions, but those exceptions are incapable of intellectual interaction (self-excluding).

Then you argue that it's intrasubjective.
Exactly like when you find yourself speaking to someone else in a dream.

So then zedvictor's metric subjects only his own experiences.
It seems to reasonably reflect my experiences as well, and from what I can gather, it does not conflict with the data I've accumulated on "others".

If you're going to argue that it's instead "inter"-subjective, then I ask, what is inter-subjevtivity if not a composite of purely intra-subjective experiences?
Exactly like when you find yourself speaking to someone else in a dream.

Can you learn about someone who only exists in a dream?  Can someone who only exists in a dream teach you something about yourself?
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@3RU7AL
We share basic hardware (biological, instinctual) similarities and basic firmware (primary childhood experience) similarities.

This is evidenced by our ability to communicate.  These (inter-subjective) similarities are prerequisite to our intellectual interaction.

Are we really communicating? What is it that we're communicating? Isn't everything you've read concerning my response filtered through the prism of your personal set of conditioned data? What is the difference between my statements and figments of your experience?

The "other minds (brains)" hypothesis is a coherent framework for understanding the actions of "others".

Psychology is based on this idea (other minds) and its EFFICACY is established by PROPAGANDA/MARKETING/PUBLIC RELATIONS techniques.
"Established" is too indulgent. And if psychology is efficacious in manipulating the formulation of decisions and experiences defined personally conditioned data (e.g. Propaganda, Marketing, Public Relations, etc.) then does this not undermine the subjectivity of individual experience? Or better yet, individuality?

You've been "conditioned" (inculcated, programmed by instinct and primary childhood experiences) similarly to myself (inter-subjectively).
How were we conditioned similarly?

Because I'm communicating with you.  This logically means our brains must necessarily share basic similarities.
Once again, are we? I could be a figment of your imagination especially if one is going to argue that belief is a personal set of conditioned data. Your response is subject to that which you believe to be true about the "human" brain.

Simply by making a statement (any statement) you are implicitly raising your ego above others.

For example, What significance does the statement, "what significance does this bear to anyone other than you?" bear to anyone other than you?
Except that I'm not the one arguing that belief is intrasubjective. I'm using his premise to demonstrate contradiction.

Ultimately, yes.  Yes, the issue IS whether you find it interesting.
No it isn't. I do find it interesting, and my participation conveys as much. But that's what I meant by "significance."

Generally speaking.  There may be a few exceptions, but those exceptions are incapable of intellectual interaction (self-excluding).
How is this a general rule when the rule is also subject to its own description? And there are exceptions that are incapable of intellectual interaction, then how are you aware of them?

It seems to reasonably reflect my experiences as well, and from what I can gather, it does not conflict with the data I've accumulated on "others".
But all that data consists of your personally conditioned data.

Exactly like when you find yourself speaking to someone else in a dream.

Can you learn about someone who only exists in a dream?  Can someone who only exists in a dream teach you something about yourself?
No less than I can learn about someone else. And I wouldn't know if a figure in my dream could teach me something about myself.






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So then what significance does this bear to anyone other than you.
Some or none.
It's wholly dependant upon the recipient.

What is a debate, other than a string of subjective statements?

When is a personal judgement not based upon ones personal opinions?

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@zedvictor4
The Ultimate Reality exists. The Ultimate Reality is The One True God.

This is not an opinion, but the only certainty.