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@Mopac
How certain is it that Jews were slaves in Egypt for 400yrs. Produce some Egyptian evidence. I must laugh.
A Very Convenient Crucifixion.
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64
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@disgusted
If I answer you according to your folly it will mislead into thinking ours is a religion of facts.
No, it is a religion of abiding in The Eternal Way, and our use of created things is directed towards that purpose.
To put one's faith into a collection of facts is to put one's faith in illusory things. It should come as no surprise that this leads to delusion.
According to Church Tradition, The Apostle John looked after Mary after the crucifixion. Why make that up? We even know the location of the house they stayed in.
Of what use is it to dispute these things? The intent is not to get to the truth, but to undermine The Truth.
These people who make themselves enemies of the faith do so even before knowing what we teach. It is not important to them.
The faith takes the form it does for a reason.
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@Mopac
The book is just a collection of fiction written by primitive, ignorant, superstitious savages and is why you can't provide evidence of the 400yrs of Jewish slavery in Egypt.
Wanna try again?
If this Jesus bloke did die on a cross , the only thing WE ALL gain from this is , Hot cross buns.
Getting crucified for hot cross buns is pretty cool.
Soooooooo , Thanks Jesus.
I pick the cross of them first just to be safe.
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@Mopac
You are disputing facts that are atteted to in documents that survive since the earliest days of the church.
Am I? And which facts are those then? And I assume you mean "attested to"? if that is the case, whom are they "attested" by? When were they attested? What are these documents called? Do you see Mopac? just one throw away comment of yours has thrown up 6 more questions, of which some you cannot answer. Its called digging a BIG FKN HOLE.
Your education is trash,
Opinion. I know these scriptures better than you ever live to know.
and you are not an expert.
I admitted to that when I asked you to define what is an "expert" in religious matters? You haven't responded. I am of the impression that according to you, one only has to believe and have faith to become an expert. So, lets have that definition, please.
You are as much an expert as any 12 year old with a youtube education.
Which unfortunately for you is still more of an expert than you will ever live to be.
Just as arrogant too.
You and your creed are the ones who believe they have the monopoly on moral standards and good behavior, YOU DON'T!!!
You should be educated through the church,
I am. I read and study the scriptures and other extra biblical literature and have done so for well over 40 fkn years now.!!!
because it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about the things that pertain to us.
Then stop with the childish opinions of me and start answering some serious questions concerning your own belief system.
Here would be a good a start https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?page=3&post_number=73
They are unenlightened.
Opinion.
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@Stephen
You don't know what we teach or believe, so the only thing you do by trying to undermine us is make yourself into a fool while simultaniously discouraging the ignorant from learning.
If you did though, you wouldn't be disputing over these things.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
If people kill The Truth because they can't accept it, does The Truth really die? No it doesn't.
Much in the same way, Christ, who is God With us, was crucified, but rose from the dead.
And certainly the church itself acts as evidence of this.
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@Mopac
so the only thing you do by trying to undermine us is make yourself into a fool
Asking questions about the scriptures that you hold faith in, is not "undermining" anything.
And you didn't explain this claim either
You are disputing facts that are atteted to in documents that survive since the earliest days of the church.
And which facts are those then? And I assume you mean "attested to"? if that is the case, whom are they "attested" by? When were they attested? What are these documents called?
And you missed this too.
and you are not an expert.
I admitted to that when I asked you to define what is an "expert" in religious matters? You haven't responded. I am of the impression that according to you, one only has to believe and have faith to become an expert. So, lets have that definition, please.
You don't know what we teach or believe,
That is not my point really. What I do know is that you have faith in these extremely unreliable and highly questionable scriptures. So much so that you have to invent stories and tell lies to defend them.
discouraging the ignorant from learning.
I think that is your fear isn't it? You don't like the idea that I am be shining a light on these extremely unreliable, ambiguous scriptures that are filled with extremely questionable half stories, lies and innuendo.
I actually marvel at the fact that you say I AM, "discouraging the ignorant from learning".
Could you explain " the ignorant"? Who are the "Ignorant"? Who are the people you don't even know are "ignorant".
You haven't even attempted explain or challenge a single thing that I have wrote in the opening post of this thread. That is not only ignorant, it could possible cause others to question these unreliable scriptures for themselves . The very thing that you are trying to discourage and avoid, isn't it.
Try this:
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Yes, astonishingly here we have the son of god himself, doubting own his father, and his own god. It is as if he didn't have a clue as to what was happening yet he clearly spoke these words of doubt. Why? Hadn't he read all the script? Hadn't he just promised two robbers that they would "TRUELY" be with him in paradise?Luke 23:43 NIV
I can see clean through you Mopac. And your fake movement .
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@Stephen
The thing is, Jesus didn't just teach in parables with words. His entire life itself was a lived out parable. That is, something is communicated by His death and resurrection.
Since you don't know what it is that is being communicated, you don't see why it does no good to dispute these things.
And really, the bible is our book. It was written by the church, it is the witness of the church, and it belongs to the church. That being the case, it is ours to interpret, and any understanding that contradicts the church is invalid.
The only thing you do by attacking these things of our faith is encourage people in their lack of effort to understand us and what we teach. Don't you think Christians are treated poorly enough as it is in Muslim countries? Why are you spreading lies that conform to the proclamations of their so called prophet?
If these things weren't difficult to believe, they wouldn't be called miracles. There is a deeper meaning behind all of it though, because as I said, it communicates something much more profound than what is seen on the surface. The church understands this. The church knows the proper use of scripture.
So really, if you are trying to do this apart from the church, you aren't respecting the subject matter. You are simply acting as a recruiter for those who would slay us.
And no, you don't see through anything. You are very much in the dark. Unfortunately, you are too prideful to ever admit when you are caught in an obvious falsehood, and always choose to double down. Not only does this make you ignorant, but weak as well.
You aren't here for honest debate. You are here to practice rhetoric and other sleazy debate tactics. You will certainly respond to this post with gaslighting, projecting, more ambush rhetoric, and the tone of an unreasonable frothing lunatic.
I would love more than anything for you to defy my expectations! If not, I will quickly grow board of you, as I have in the past.
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@Mopac
The thing is, Jesus didn't just teach in parables with words.
This is not addressing the points I have raised at post (1) of this thread. You are avoiding them. YOUR reluctance alone would arouse curiosity in anyone considering to study the bible.
Since you don't know what it is that is being communicated, you don't see why it does no good to dispute these things.
Opinion. And I don't care what you believe.
And really, the bible is our book.
The bible belongs to anyone who wants to read it. Stop being arrogant and stop putting yourself on a pedestal that you keep falling off with every failure to address questions on your own belief system
It was written by the church, it is the witness of the church,
No and No. Jesus was a Jew. He was king of the Jews and not king of the Christians. And that is one fact you Christians refuse to recognize. Jesus would have been appalled that a whole new and different religion had sprung up in his name.
That being the case, it is ours to interpret, and any understanding that contradicts the church is invalid.
BULLSHIT!!!!
The only thing you do by attacking these things of our faith is encourage people in their lack of effort to understand us and what we teach.
How many fkn times!!!! Asking question concerning what it is that you have faith in is not attacking anything. Or "subverting" anything.
Don't you think Christians are treated poorly enough as it is in Muslim countries?
I know they are. I have said so many times. This has nothing to do with this thread. stay on topic.
Why are you spreading lies that conform to the proclamations of their so called prophet?
Where have I done that. it is not a lie that Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified. Or are you saying different?
If these things weren't difficult to believe, they wouldn't be called miracles.
Stop it. silly man.
There is a deeper meaning behind all of it though,
There is. I have said so many times. There is another story under the surface of the gospel story that you are far too afraid to face.
and you missed this AGAIN!!
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Yes, astonishingly here we have the son of god himself, doubting own his father, and his own god. It is as if he didn't have a clue as to what was happening yet he clearly spoke these words of doubt. Why? Hadn't he read all the script? Hadn't he just promised two robbers that they would "TRUELY" be with him in paradise?Luke 23:43 NIV
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@Stephen
There is really nothing left for us to discuss.
You don't respect what I am telling you, and your viewpoint is obviously blasphemous from my perspective.
Your argument amounts to little more than your imagination filling in blanks, sometimes even blanks that aren't there.
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@Mopac
And your argument relies on the imaginative writings of primitive, ignorant, superstitious savages who invented your God.
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@Mopac
If these things weren't difficult to believe, they wouldn't be called miracles.
These so called "miracles" are very easy to believe and understand, once you take the time to study them. You just haven't taken the time to do so. instead, you have relied totally on explanations from your leaders and accepted them at face value instead of studying what they have said to you. You have been steered towards passages and verses that can be reasonably explained and steered away completely from those for which they simply have no explanation without relying on the supernatural and superstitious.
Jesus spoke in code on many accusations for fear of the Romans. He used code names for people and actions too, such as " thunder" "lightening" and "rock". To understand what is going on in these scriptures you need to understand the Palestine of Jesus' time. It was in utter turmoil. There were many factions vying for positions of power and all under the noses of Roman rule.
There is a deeper meaning behind all of it though,
There is . I have said so many times. These scriptures are not just about so called "spiritual" matters. They are about power and whose time it was to rule legitimately.
because as I said, it communicates something much more profound than what is seen on the surface.
Yes I know. Under the surface you will find treachery, turmoil, treason and chaos. Threats, murder, bribery and rebellion; These are all the things that you won't find on the fluffy "love your neighbor" give to the "poor" surface.
Jesus was no pacifist by any measure. He was building a fkn army to take the throne by force if it came to it. Jesus was more than willing to let the Romans have the ultimate power, he just wanted to his rightful duel position as King of the JEWS (not Christians) and rightful position as High Priest. The Romans didn't give two fks who was on the throne or who was high priest as long as they kept peace and the zealots from Galilee in order. Those illegitimate rulers of the temple and the throne were puppets put there by the grace of Rome.
The church understands this. The church knows the proper use of scripture.
They probably do , but they are keeping the truth away from you I can promise you that sunshine. You are just a foot soldier, gofer, in the army of your movement. jesu had thousands of followers and many more disciples than just the 12 you like to misrepresent and misquote.
So really, if you are trying to do this apart from the church, you aren't respecting the subject matter. You are simply acting as a recruiter for those who would slay us.
No. I am here only to her your answers and explanations to my questions. I have spoken up for Christians many times on the complete right to practice their religion. AND like I have to keep you; it is the scriptures that I have a problem with, not necessary Christians.
you are too prideful to ever admit when you are caught in an obvious falsehood,
Yes you keep calling me a liar in various forms but as of yet you haven't produced a single piece of evidence to support that accusation or have you done so to prove a single one of your own claims, have you.
and always choose to double down. Not only does this make you ignorant, but weak as well.
Opinion And is all you have to do is prove me and my claims wrong, don't you? Just telling me I am wrong is not evidence of me being wrong.
You aren't here for honest debate.
You are the one not answering the questions. And what is it that you believe that I haven't been honest about.
You are here to practice rhetoric and other sleazy debate tactics.
Highlighting chapters and verses that you have no response or answers to, is what you mean. No, it must be terrible to know and realise that you know absolutely nothing about what it is that YOU and your church have actually been spouting all these years. And you still haven't explained to me the definition of and "expert" in biblical matters, is, have you?
You will certainly respond to this post with gaslighting, projecting, more ambush rhetoric, and the tone of an unreasonable frothing lunatic.
Name calling does not win you an argument, Mopac. I have to keep reminding you Christians that ONLY EVIDENCE will win you an argument, and not beliefs presented as fact.
I would love more than anything for you to defy my expectations!
What are they? I am amazed that you would have any expectations at all only those allowed to you by your church elders.
I have said already. I can, have and will admit when I am wrong, but your church and your faith will not afford you the same privilege. You have to stick to the rules of sticking to the story and when cornered - first; denial, then lies to support your claims of miracles and men bringing back to life other dead men.
I am scrutinizing and questioning what it is you believe in, Mopac. I don't care about your faith. I have no interest in it.
If not, I will quickly grow board of you, as I have in the past.
Hahahahhahahhahah My ribs hurt!!!! I don't believe there is a more boring, nauseating person on the forum than you.
And you STILL haven't explained this ,
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Yes, astonishingly here we have the son of god himself, doubting own his father, and his own god. It is as if he didn't have a clue as to what was happening yet he clearly spoke these words of doubt. Why? Hadn't he read all the script? Hadn't he just promised two robbers that they would "TRUELY" be with him in paradise?Luke 23:43 NIV
Continued from POST 1
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Jesus said these word of doubt right after promising the two executed each side of his that they would "TRUELY" be with him in paradise?Luke 23:43 NIV. It is never explained to us by these gospel writers where "heaven" is or what happened when they get there.
Still;
this wasn't the first time Jesus had lost not only his faith, but he had also lost his nerve in an earlier episode when this dangerous plot was nearing.
It appears he was backing out of something that was prearranged when we read the words;
Luke 22:41-42
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your Will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
And here Mathew tells us it wasn't Jesus' wish or idea that he should "sacrifice" himself and he begs his "father" twice to be relieved of this burden.
Matthew tells us of Jesus making his request of the Father twice: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'"(Matthew 26:39) and "He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done'" Matt. 26:42.
This man was obviously absolutely terrified of what he was about to face we have to ask, did he bargained for this, did he not understand the scripture or the script. Did he not know that all of this mission was leading up to a sacrifice, his own sacrifice?
We can only conclude that he didn’t have a clue that this was how it was all supposed to end.
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@Stephen
If I hadn't already discussed these very things with you before, finding you unreceptive to the orthodox understanding, I might be more inclined to answer your questions. I don't get the impression you are open to being corrected.
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@Mopac
.
Mopac,
YOUR TRASHING OF JESUS QUOTES: "The Koran not only demonstrates an ignorance of Christian theology on several occasions, but it contradicts the teachings of the apostles and the church fathers. Why should I believe Mohammed over the apostles themselves? I shouldn't. That's what I think."
Haven't you been made aware that Mohammed is the SAME GOD as Jesus the Christ?! When you call the Islamic Qu'ran "ignorant," you slap Jesus right in the face, again!
Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the SAME GOD:
Mopac, you continue to pave the road to Hell within this forum, and I can only hope that someday you will realize that what you think you know about our Christianity, you really don't, understood? Say hi to Satan from me upon your demise.
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@BrotherDThomas
Something about the "God forbid that he should have a son" etched around the Dome of the Rock seems to give the impression that Mohammed is an anti-christ and false prophet, which is why we can't believe him.
True Islam or Submission to God is Orthodox Christianity.
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@Mopac
.
Mopac,
YOUR UNGODLY POSTS AGAIN: "Something about the "God forbid that he should have a son" etched around the Dome of the Rock seems to give the impression that Mohammed is an anti-christ and false prophet, which is why we can't believe him. True Islam or Submission to God is Orthodox Christianity."
The true Christian like myself acknowledges the fact once again that you continue to slap Jesus in the face with your own Satanic interpretation of our faith regarding Islam and Judaism! Where do you get the authority to state that the God of Allah is not the same God of Judaism, and Christianity??! The Abrahamic religions are derived from the patriarch Abraham who is the biblical figure from the Old Testament, who is recognized by Jews, Christians, and Muslims as the foundation of our faiths!
Please explain your continued and blatant ignorance regarding the above facts!
BEGIN:
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@BrotherDThomas
Certainly, I acknowledge The One True God, and Allah certainly is God to Arabic speaking Christians.
However, I can not acknowledge that Mohammed is a prophet as his revelations contradict the teachings of the apostolic church. He can not acknowledge Jesus Christ and the apostles while simultaneously rewriting what we know they taught and expect us to be unnoticing. The Church has taken the preservation of this Holy Tradition passed on from the apostles very seriously.
I love Muslims, as should all right believing, true worshipping Christians. Surely God will judge them rightly, knowing what is truly in their individual hearts. The fulfillment of their law and prophet is in Christ Jesus, and what Mohammed did not see has been revealed in Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith. The Word of God incarnate, born of The Holy Spirit and the ever virgin Mary, who is rightly called theotokos. The very Lord and Son of God, Jesus Christ.
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@Mopac
And really, the bible is our book. It was written by the church, it is the witness of the church, and it belongs to the church. That being the case, it is ours to interpret, and any understanding that contradicts the church is invalid.
All of it, every word, was written by Jews, no Orthodox Christians present. Your indoctrination runs deep.
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@Mopac
I don't get the impression you are open to being corrected.
Of course I am, but only as long as those "corrections" come with factual evidence and not belief presented as fact. Not theory presented as fact. Not unfounded guesses or assumptions or simply what it is you may think. It will take only factual evidence for me to be wrong and stood corrected.
And this seem to be slipping your eyesight quite regular>>
Matthew 27: 46 Eli, Eli,..... My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? !!!!
Jesus said these word of doubt right after promising the two executed each side of his that they would "TRULY" be with him in paradise? Luke 23:43 NIV. .
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@Mopac
.
Mopac,
YOUR ONCE AGAIN UNGODLY QUOTES: "However, I can not acknowledge that Mohammed is a prophet as his revelations contradict the teachings of the apostolic church. He can not acknowledge Jesus Christ and the apostles while simultaneously rewriting what we know they taught and expect us to be unnoticing. The Church has taken the preservation of this Holy Tradition passed on from the apostles very seriously.
I love Muslims, as should all right believing, true worshipping Christians. Surely God will judge them rightly, knowing what is truly in their individual hearts. The fulfillment of their law and prophet is in Christ Jesus, and what Mohammed did not see has been revealed in Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith. The Word of God incarnate, born of The Holy Spirit and the ever virgin Mary, who is rightly called theotokos. The very Lord and Son of God, Jesus Christ."
Lest you forget, the Muslims accept that Jesus was a prophet, but only to Allah which is the SAME God of Abrahamic beliefs that Christianity accepts, whereas Jesus Himself stated in the Islamic Quran: " Jesus said, 'Indeed, I am the slave of Allah (God). He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet." (Quran 19:30). The SAME GOD of Islam contradicts the SAME GOD of Christianity, therefore, how can our Hebrew God Yahweh of Christianity perform this insidious act?
Furthermore, Jesus and I take offense when you state that you "love Muslims" because of what their Holy Words in the Qu'ran teach them relative to our Christianity! How dare you act in this manner against Jesus?!
THE MUSLIM ALLAH GOD'S WORDS OF THE QU'RAN SPECIFICALLY STATES THE FOLLOWING REGARDING CHRISTIANITY:
”O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Qur’an 5:51)
“Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.” (Qur’an 2:65-66)
Yikes, how can Allah, which is the SAME GOD of our Christianity through Abrahamic tradition, state the above passages against us? Can you explain?
MOPAC, YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO LEARN REGARDING OUR FAITH, AND I ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME TO ENLIGHTEN YOU!
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@BrotherDThomas
The Orthodox Church does not recognize Mohammed as a prophet.
Mohammed said what you quoted, but Christ said...
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
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@Mopac
The Orthodox Church does not recognize Mohammed as a prophet.
You have had a good run at derailing this thread that is about a fake and Convenient Crucifixion. This thread is not about Muhammad.! Please stop it and address the points I have raised or simply leave the thread.
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@Mopac
Mopac,
Since you have bought forth Matthew 5:44 where Jesus states that you are to love your enemies, and you agree with His premise, then you are on record here on DEBATEART that you LOVE Osama Bin Laden that murdered 3500 US citizens on 9/11, that you LOVE ISIS that beheaded journalist James Foley, and many others, that you LOVE Mohammed Ernwazi, aka,"Jihadi John," that has beheaded many of our US citizens.
Furthermore, you now LOVE all of the Islamic factions that are murdering our US citizens in the Mid East, therefore under your notion of loving the people that murder us, how do you sleep at night?
Oh, as you do with Stephen, you ran away again and forgot to address how Allah, which is the same god as our Hebrew Yahweh because of their foundation of Abraham, poses the murdering words below that go directly against Christians!!! For the 2nd. time, can you explain this to the members of DEBATEART or not? WAITING!
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an." (Qur'an 8:12)
”O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Qur’an 5:51)
“Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.” (Qur’an 2:65-66)
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@BrotherDThomas
Perhaps what you call Christianity is not really Christianity. We are called to radical love.
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@BrotherDThomas
We don't respect Mohammed as a prophet. In other words, his words were not dictated by God as those who believe him claim.
There is no conflict, unless you are a Muslim who calls Jesus Christ a liar when Jesus Christ tells his apostles thst the gates of hell will not overcome the church.
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@Mopac
YOUR LACKING QUOTE: "We don't respect Mohammed as a prophet. In other words, his words were not dictated by God as those who believe him claim."
Cite actual scripture to back up your claim toward Mohammed, otherwise, like so many times before, you bring forth weak assertions without any godly backup whatsoever other than "hearsay" and "weak opinions."
YOUR REVEALING RUNAWAY QUOTE AGAIN: "Perhaps what you call Christianity is not really Christianity. We are called to radical love."
Barring the fact that you ran once again from the main premise, and if you are called to radical love, then do you follow the exact words of Jesus to murder your family and friends if they entice you to follow another God concept? Yes?
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, BUT KILL HIM. Your hand shall be the first raised to SLAY HIM; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall STONE HIM TO DEATH, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)
Please don't be bible ignorant and tell everyone that the direct killing passage towards unbelievers of our Jesus' faith above is in the Old Testament, therefore it doesn't have to be followed anymore, okay? Barring the fact that Jesus' words actually stated this action in the past, therefore if you do, then I will have to severely "Bible Slap you Silly" again, understood? Get it? Yes? Therefore, Deuteronomy 13:7-12 is to be followed today, with biblical axioms from the word of Jesus to prove this act!
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@Mopac
words were not dictated by God
Do you have any words dictated by god?