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@EtrnlVw
Unnecessary is objective. If the process can happen without some element, that element is unnecessary.
Evolution.
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@drafterman
That is of course if you accept that processes occur by themselves and can't answer why. Unnecessary is subjective.
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@EtrnlVw
Unnecessary is objective. If the process can happen without some element, that element is unnecessary.
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@drafterman
It's one thing to acknowledge the process, but another thing to either ignore or explain why they occur, both prospects should be of interest intellectually speaking. If you feel it is unnecessary to explain how processes occur all by themselves from inanimate forces that is your personal feelings on the matter. I'm not satisfied with such an assumption. So your feelings on this matter are subjective.
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@EtrnlVw
It's one thing to acknowledge the process, but another thing to either ignore or explain why they occur, both prospects should be of interest intellectually speaking.
Acknowledging that there are still questions to answer is not the same thing as ignoring them. Things like abiogenesis are very interesting intellectually and I look forward to any discoveries made in this arena.
If you feel it is unnecessary to explain how processes occur all by themselves from inanimate forces that is your personal feelings on the matter.
The only thing I said was necessary was "Creation." It is not necessary to the validity of the evolutionary process to posit a Creation element. It stands on its own merits.
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@Dynasty
Agreed, however, simple-to-complex evolution is more frustrating than complex-to-simple evolution.
Bacteria evolve and I'm not sure whether it is known if such evolution is;
1} simple >> complex,
2} complex >> simple,
3} lateral i.e. neither of the above.
The coding for biologic life --- and all other physical reality phenomena--- may reside as geodesic Gravitational ( ) and Dark Energy )( coding within one, or more black hole phenomena. Our seeming, 3D physical reality, being a side-effect resultant of the latter two above.
..."we appear to be 2D creatures having an illusion of 3D"...Jacob Bekenstein....confirmed by S. Hawking.....most eloquently presented by Leonard Susskind.
1st law of thermodynamics holds true for all occupied space phenomena and black holes are and occupied space phenomena.
The truth exists for those who seek it. Few seek it and even fewer acknowledge truth when presented with it.
..."what we have is, interfering and non-interfering patterns ....{ 2D? }....operating in pure principle" .......Bucky Fuller
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@drafterman
Only if you don't particularly want transhumanism within the scope of evolution. Your call, though a bit short sighted perhaps.Transhumanism is not in the scope of evolution.
Nonetheless as far as I am concerned technological evolution will most likely exceed both humanism and transhumanism.
As I stated, you are only concerning yourself with one small phase of the process of material evolution and conveniently disregarding everything that went before and everything that will possibly come after.
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@zedvictor4
Only if you don't particularly want transhumanism within the scope of evolution. Your call, though a bit short sighted perhaps.Nonetheless as far as I am concerned technological evolution will most likely exceed both humanism and transhumanism.As I stated, you are only concerning yourself with one small phase of the process of material evolution and conveniently disregarding everything that went before and everything that will possibly come after.
Definitionally, evolution only pertains to the change in life over time via replication. Once you start introducing non-living components, those are outside the scope. This isn't about what I "particularly want" or what my "call" is, it's about what evolution is.
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@Dynasty
The keystone or touchstone of biologic life is the information loop/circle. Interdependent feedback systems.
Gravity ( ) and Dark Energy )( eternally provide the primary 2D information loop between positive and negative shaped geodesic space when considered as a spirally defined torus.
1) half of this loop is the outer, positive geodesic trajectory of a graviton/darkion that, has a spiral trajectory towards,
2} the inner, negative shaped Dark Energy surface side of a torus, ---that is being defined over time---,
3} and its trajectory as graviton/darkion then spirals on a geodesic curvature back as a darkion/graviton, and,
4} in addition to the spiral trajectory we have another primary trajectory that takes place and this gives the seeming effect of 3D ie gives body to a 2D only surface torus. This is the process of inversion-outversion and peak of positive and negative curvature.
This latter process can be seen as being similar to inversion of the fertilized egg in gastruation phase of biology
...."As the first postulate, let us assume that, at the fundamental level, the energy/matter comprising the Universe is far from equilibrium,
that it exists as an evolving flow, and that the energy/matter comprising and flowing through the Universe spontaneously self-organizes on multiple spatiotemporal scales into metastable, interconverting flow/circulation patterns (organizational forms).
These forms are manifested at the corresponding levels of the organizational hierarchy as elementary particles, atoms, molecules, cells, organisms, ecosystems (including human organizations and economies), planetary and stellar systems, galaxies, and so forth."...
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@Dynasty
..."Feedback loops are important because they allow living organisms to maintain homeostasis. Homeostasis is the mechanism that enables us to keep our internal environment relatively constant – not too hot, or too cold, not too hungry or tired. The level of energy that an organism needs to maintain homeostasis depends on the type of organism, as well as the environment it inhabits."...
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@Dynasty
..."All of these examples, and many more like them, turn out to have something in common when analysed at the mechanistic level: in each case, what has been achieved so far by the system is used to control its current behaviour. This type of control is called feedback, and is represented by a loop feeding information from the output of a process back to its input.
In this sense, the loop is a near-universal symbol of living processes."....
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@drafterman
Can you define evolution?
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@TheRealNihilist
The descent and modification of living organisms over time.
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@drafterman
Would someone losing eyesight be considered an evolution or does it have to be passed onto a future generation to be evolution?
This is not concerning the amount of people because you didn't really give that in your definition nor about passing on stuff but I wanted to include that in. You can give that if you want.
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@TheRealNihilist
Would someone losing eyesight be considered an evolution or does it have to be passed onto a future generation to be evolution?
It has to be passed on. That is what descent means.
I'm fine with the definition as-is.This is not concerning the amount of people because you didn't really give that in your definition. You can give that if you want.
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@drafterman
I'll take that as a yes.It has to be passed on. That is what descent means.
Transhumanism (abbreviated as H+ or h+) is an international philosophical movement that advocates for the transformation of the human condition by developing and making widely available sophisticated technologies to greatly enhance human intellect and physiology.
This isn't about the movement more so about the sophisticated technologies. Basically zed should know it is a movement and for the purpose of this conversation it would be mean sophisticated technologies.
Do you consider nano machines that are added genetically added and passed on to be evolution?
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@TheRealNihilist
Do you consider nano machines that are added genetically added and passed on to be evolution?
No.
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@TheRealNihilist
Let me clarify. If some sort of foreign material were somehow integrated into the human body such that it could be passed down via inheritence, then yes, it would become an evolutionary factory. That is not reality as far as I know yet.
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@drafterman
Let me clarify. If some sort of foreign material were somehow integrated into the human body such that it could be passed down via inheritence, then yes, it would become an evolutionary factory.
I did say the foreign material as in nano-machines are going to be passed on as in through the genes. Basically attached to the genes and multiply as the genes will.
That is not reality as far as I know yet.
Whether or not it is reality has no relevance to the thought experiment. It just means it hasn't happened yet.
This is about what we consider evolution not what is reality which is why I asked you for your definition of evolution and this hypothetical.
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@TheRealNihilist
Okay, then yeah that's evolution.
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@drafterman
Definitionally, evolution only pertains to the change in life over time via replication. Once you start introducing non-living components, those are outside the scope. This isn't about what I "particularly want" or what my "call" is, it's about what evolution is.
What did you mean by this?
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@TheRealNihilist
zed had said:
"Only if you don't particularly want transhumanism within the scope of evolution. Your call, though a bit short sighted perhaps."
As if what is or is not in the scope of evolution had anything to do with my wants or desires. I was simply clarifying that it does not.
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@drafterman
It was about this statement:
evolution only pertains to the change in life over time via replication. Once you start introducing non-living components, those are outside the scope.
Do you consider nano-machines part of genes that can be passed on to be living?
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@TheRealNihilist
I wouldn't consider them to be living, no, but at that level they'd just be part of the human host, much in the same way the mitochondria was once a foreign entity that we absorbed and incorporated into our makeup.
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@drafterman
Do you consider a gene to be a life if not what do you consider to be a life?
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@TheRealNihilist
- Homeostasis: regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature
- Organization: being structurally composed of one or more cells – the basic units of life
- Metabolism: transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
- Growth: maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
- Adaptation: the ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors.
- Response to stimuli: a response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.
- Reproduction: the ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism or sexually from two parent organisms.
Genes themselves are not living, they are part of living beings, though.
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@drafterman
Genes themselves are not living, they are part of living beings, though.
Is a tree a life?
Reproduction: the ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism or sexually from two parent organisms.
7. So a man or woman who have been sterilized are not life?
Adaptation: the ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors.
5. Do you have to show change every single instance of your existence or what is passed onto future generations? Don't know how you would respond to this, just seeing what you would say and I will go from there because I don't really know what example you would use.
Growth: maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
4. So basically metabolism?
Metabolism (/məˈtæbəlɪzəm/, from Greek: μεταβολή metabolē, "change") is the set of life-sustaining chemical reactions in organisms. The three main purposes of metabolism are: the conversion of food to energy to run cellular processes; the conversion of food/fuel to building blocks for proteins, lipids, nucleic acids, and some carbohydrates; and the elimination of nitrogenous wastes.
What does this got to do with growth unless you are saying conversion is growth? Under the assumption I am right anabolism and catabolism are parts of the metabolism.
I don't consider maintenance to be growth if it wasn't clear already. Maintaining is preserving not improving.
Response to stimuli: a response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.
6. This doesn't really seem like something to constitute worth as a measurement of life because I think this is begging the question.
X is life because it responds. Well a rock responds to weather by being moved. No I was talking about stimuli. So responding doesn't actually constitutes life only if you have stimuli that works? This is where you come in
Metabolism: transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
I would like the growth one answered before saying stuff about this one. I don't know why maybe because it is getting too much to type about. This will also be my stance to 2 and 1. I started with the end and just picked stuff that I thought I had something to respond too. I think it is best I put these 3 on hold and wait for those answers and we can go from there. It's a feeling not really a likely turn for what will happen. Maybe we can't go passed those points so simply adding more to argue doesn't make it as focused as if I did respond to everything.
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@TheRealNihilist
Is a tree a life?
Yes
So a man or woman who have been sterilized are not life?
No. We can define a bicycle as a pedal-powered vehicle with two wheels, but it doesn't stop being a bicycle if I take a wheel of to change it. Being sterile is an deviation from the normal template of a human. They don't stop being living, they are just deviations from that norm.
Do you have to show change every single instance of your existence or what is passed onto future generations? Don't know how you would respond to this, just seeing what you would say and I will go from there because I don't really know what example you would use.
You have to have the ability to change, not that you have to change.
Growth: maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.4. So basically metabolism?Metabolism (/məˈtæbəlɪzəm/, from Greek: μεταβολή metabolē, "change") is the set of life-sustaining chemical reactions in organisms. The three main purposes of metabolism are: the conversion of food to energy to run cellular processes; the conversion of food/fuel to building blocks for proteins, lipids, nucleic acids, and some carbohydrates; and the elimination of nitrogenous wastes.What does this got to do with growth unless you are saying conversion is growth? Under the assumption I am right anabolism and catabolism are parts of the metabolism.
Metabolism is the method by which growth happens.
I don't consider maintenance to be growth if it wasn't clear already. Maintaining is preserving not improving.Response to stimuli: a response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.6. This doesn't really seem like something to constitute worth as a measurement of life because I think this is begging the question.X is life because it responds. Well a rock responds to weather by being moved. No I was talking about stimuli. So responding doesn't actually constitutes life only if you have stimuli that works? This is where you come in
Certainly "response" exists on a spectrum here, but I think it's more important to understand that just meeting one of these requirements doesn't make something a life. But generally a "response" to a stimulus is some change in the internal state of the organism.
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@drafterman
No. We can define a bicycle as a pedal-powered vehicle with two wheels, but it doesn't stop being a bicycle if I take a wheel of to change it. Being sterile is an deviation from the normal template of a human. They don't stop being living, they are just deviations from that norm.
So reproduction is not essential for calling something a life? This can't be used as well all of them add to something because you have literally rejected reproduction as an important thing for life meaning reproduction shouldn't even be on the list.
You have to have the ability to change, not that you have to change.
Can you give me an example?
Metabolism is the method by which growth happens.
So conversion is growth? Please the link the two to me.
Certainly "response" exists on a spectrum here, but I think it's more important to understand that just meeting one of these requirements doesn't make something a life. But generally a "response" to a stimulus is some change in the internal state of the organism.
This is begging the question. We weren't actually proving God's existence we were proving if it would respond to us. Meaning it was assumed stimuli is life and we are using responses to determine the responsiveness of stimuli not that stimuli is life. Do you think I am correct?
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@TheRealNihilist
So reproduction is not essential for calling something a life?
That is not what I said, no. Again, as an example, butterflies have wings, but if I clip off a butterflies' wings, it doesn't stop being a butterfly.
You have to have the ability to change, not that you have to change.Can you give me an example?
Of what?
Metabolism is the method by which growth happens.So conversion is growth? Please the link the two to me.
Metabolism is a mechanism, it is a process in which external chemicals and energy are converted into internal chemicals and energy for use.
Growth is when the increase in material of an organism is greater than the decrease of material.
Metabolism is how organisms grow. It is the process organisms acquire new material.
Certainly "response" exists on a spectrum here, but I think it's more important to understand that just meeting one of these requirements doesn't make something a life. But generally a "response" to a stimulus is some change in the internal state of the organism.This is begging the question. We weren't actually proving God's existence we were proving if it would respond to us. Meaning it was assumed stimuli is life and we are using responses to determine the responsiveness of stimuli not that stimuli is life. Do you think I am correct?
No I do not. And it is not "begging the question."