It is delusional to say, "There is no Ultimate Reality"

Author: Mopac
Ultimate Reality
God
Orthodox
The Way
The Truth

Posts

Total: 147
Topic's author
#121
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
I can not teach Christianity to someone who thinks they already understand it. In fact, that is my biggest obstacle here. People already think they understand Christianity when they don't.

Teach us then. Let's start simple, how about you tell us five facts about God? I will even fill in the first two for you.

1) God exists
2) God is ultimate reality
3)
4)
5)

Fill in the other three yourself to teach us a bit about Christianity, then you won't have to whine about how everyone is ignorant of Christianity anymore!

Points 1 and 2 are the same thing.


You aren't interested in being taught anything. If you really are, I suggest you find an Orthodox Catholic Church and learn the proper way, not over the internet.

Topic's author
#122
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Yeah, read post 119. He actually gave a straight answer this time. You see what I mean now right?
If you don't think my answers are straight, perhaps it is because I am addressing the folly that leads you to ask questions that aren't useful.

We are instructed not to not answer foolish and unlearned questions. So if I don't answer your question directly, it would be better to think, "Why is he answering in this way?"

The answer should always be that I am addressing your faulty thinking rather than the question that comes from the faulty thinking. If you find that strange, the precedent for that can be found in scripture. 







#123
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Mopac
God is not a concept, God is The Ultimate Reality.
Again, how do you know?
I can not teach Christianity to someone who thinks they already understand it.
Nice way of telling me that I don't understand the religion I believe.
These words you are using, you don't even know what the church means by these things.
Which words? God? I know what that means. The Ultimate Reality? I have yet to hear of a church that uses that term.
These words you are using, you don't even know what the church means by these things. The scriptures are written in Greek. All of the ecumenical councils and dogmatic formulations of the church were done in Greek. What is the national church of Greece? The Orthodox Church.
Non Sequitir. The conclusion does not follow from the premises. In fact, the premises have absolutely nothing to do with the conclusion.
This is a topic about God, The Ultimate Reality.  More specifically the foolishness of denying this God.
Yes, but you are still missing the point. Unless the other person agrees that the Ultimate Reality is God, your argument can't hold water. You would just be calling their conception of reality God, even though it isn't God.
#124
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
@Mopac
@Etrnl

And now with post 121 you see my other point. He avoids at all costs making any statement that is not a truism because it hurts his proto-ontological script.

@Mopac

As I have told you before in the past I have been to quite a few Orthodox Church services. One thing they definitely agreed on is that Jesus is part of the Trinity that makes up god. Did they get that part right in your eyes Mr. Wiseman?
Topic's author
#125
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@MisterChris
I'll agree that there is an ultimate reality, but I don't think it is necessarily knowable. Even if we could deduce that a God exists, I'm not sure that we could say for certain that an earthly religion is correct.



God is incomprehensible, but not totally unknowable. If that was the case, it wouldn't even be possible for us to discern anything.

Correct or orthodox religion is always a personal relationship with God. As Christ's parable of the fishing net shows us, even if you belong to the right church (the net), that doesn't mean that you got it. Some fish are thrown out. Likewise, the story of the good Samaritan shows that even someone belonging to the wrong religion can be justified before God.

We are to judge rightly, not based on appearances. 

Topic's author
#126
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
As I have told you before in the past I have been to quite a few Orthodox Church services. One thing they definitely agreed on is that Jesus is part of the Trinity that makes up god. Did they get that part right?




Simply going to the orthodox church doesn't mean you learned anything. Were you a catechuman? Were you ever baptized? Chrismated?

Certainly We believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. You however, do not know what that means so it wouldn't be profitable to discuss it. Instead, if you want to learn Christianity, learn from a presbyter. 


It is impossible to understand any of this stuff without first purifying the heart, and most of our discipline is aimed at purifying the heart. If you are not putting the faith into practice, even having the right ideas in your head won't profit you.

#127
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Mopac
Certainly We believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

Okay out of the three things I asked you for that can be number one.

1) Jesus is part of the Trinity that makes up god.
2)
3)

We were also taught that it is possible to have a personal relationship with God through things such as prayer and faith. Would you agree with that or am I being delusional?
Topic's author
#128
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
And now with post 121 you see my other point. He avoids at all costs making any statement that is not a truism because it hurts his proto-ontological script.


It's got nothing to do with lack of security. I am very confident in the position I represent. Some of your questions are a reflection of a deeper superstition, and that is what I am addressing. 

If you are removing weeds, simply chopping them will not do the trick. As long as the root is still there, the weeds will just grow again.





Topic's author
#129
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
This is not a topic about Christianity. You are not sincerely trying to learn anything, you are simply trying to construct a straw man argument to take down.

#130
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Mopac
This is not a topic about Christianity.

According to you this topic is about removing superstition "like weeds by the root". So, the idea that it is possible to have a personal relationship with God... Is that accurate or is that a superstition that needs to be removed?
Topic's author
#131
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit

If you refuse to accept that God is The Truth, how can I meaningfully answer your question?

This is not a topic about Christianity, it is a topic about what the word "God" means, and how it is superstitious to say that God doesn't exist in light of what the word means.





#132
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Mopac
If you refuse to accept that God is The Truth

I never did refuse to accept that, totally unjustified accusation on your part. In fact we can make that number two.

1) Jesus is part of the Trinity that makes up god.
2) God is The Truth
3)

Just need verification on whether it is possible to have a personal relationship with God and the list will be completed.
Topic's author
#133
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
You don't know what you are asking. 
And to be frank, I don't respect your approach.





Topic's author
#134
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
I will cooperate a bit more, but you have to understand something very important.

The usefulness of the information you get is going to be contingent on how much you presume to understand what is being said, and your willingness to see it in a different way. In other words, you have to be sincere and open minded, charitable and willing to ask questions for the sake of clarifying rather than to debunk, and the humility to respect me as being more knowledgeable about my own faith than you.

So basically, you will get in what you put out. If you ask the wrong questions, you won't get good answers. If you presume to know and start attempting to debunk me, you are arguing against something you don't understand while at the same time spreading disinformation. 

There is only so much that can be revealed through debate. The revelation really comes in the living of it, not the intellectualization of it. So understand that even if your heart is pure and you ask all the right questions, there is only so far you can go without living it.




1) Jesus is part of the Trinity that makes up god.
2) God is The Truth
3)

Just need verification on whether it is possible to have a personal relationship with God and the list will be completed.


You have no hope of understanding us with a list of facts. Just on the upfront.

1) It would be more accurate to say Jesus Christ is one of The Trinity, because God is not divided into parts. Neither is God made up of parts.


2) God is The Ultimate Reality, His Word is The Truth, His Breathe is The Spirit of Truth. These 3 hypostasis share 1 common ousia. What that means is that God is One with his Word and Spirit. They are all divine. It is One God, not three Gods. Know that this is one of the mysteries of the faith, so if the meaning isn't apparent to you, that is because it is something to be experienced moreso than intellectualized.

Just as thanksgiving can only really be known through being thankful, so The Trinity is revealed by worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. To worship God in Spirit and Truth is to worship God in Trinity. 


3) The personal relationship we have with God is our life. When we fall into idolatry by loving the transient things of this world more than God, we are not loving God. It is like loving the things that someone gives us, but hating the one giving the gifts.

When we love God, it is a process of examining our actions, behaviors, thoughts, influences, and passions that abide in our soul, and purifying ourselves of that which is not in accordance with walking The Eternal Way of Truth. It is walking that Eternal Way of Truth that expresses a knowing personal relationship with God. Someone who walks this Eternal Way abides in Christ Jesus, who is The Truth. In doing so, they are strengthened and purified naturally by that Comforter, The Spirit of Truth.

And so by God's grace, through unity with Christ Jesus share in His divinity by the sanctifying power of The Holy Spirit.

We can have a personal relationship with God because God is incarnate, and God is with us. It is God uniting creation to divinity in the hypostasis of The Son that sanctifies creation itself.










Topic's author
#135
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
The Ultimate Reality is God, and no sophistry of man can undermine this.
#136
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
If you don't believe there is ultimate reality, say...

"There is no ultimate reality"

"There is no ultimate reality" because you use that term as a placeholder for your god, your god doesn't exist so therefore a placeholder for your god also does not exist.

There is no god.= "There is no ultimate reality"




#137
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Man created your god as a member of the Canaanite Pantheon of gods, your god aka your ultimate reality doesn't exist.
Topic's author
#138
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality is God.

By The Spirit of Truth, it is The Divine Word made flesh.

And so The Father is revealed in The Son, by The Holy Spirit which proceeds from The Father and through The Son. 


If you do not see The Father in The Son, you do not see by The Holy Spirit.


#139
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
This is a self indulgent word salad without meaning to anyone not indoctrinated with the beliefs you have been indoctrinated with.

Why don't you address this:
Man created your god as a member of the Canaanite Pantheon of gods, your god aka your ultimate reality doesn't exist.
Topic's author
#140
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
It is actually a formula for how the divine is revealed in the symbol.


If you don't believe The Word is what it says it is, it is like speaking of a rose as originating in the first use of the pronunciation "rose".


The Ultimate Reality was not invented or created, it by necessity in order to properly be what those words express, has always been, always is, and will forever will be.




#141
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Man created your god as a member of the Canaanite Pantheon of gods, your god aka your ultimate reality doesn't exist.
Read your fuckin' book
Topic's author
#142
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
Your claims are false.


As you have already denied the existence of Ultimate Reality under the pretense that the words I am using are meaningless, It would be totally reasonable to dismiss you as a nihilist.


As a nihilist, you have nothing of substance to add to this conversation.


#143
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
I add substance, you run away. The Canaanite Pantheon and your god's part in it is substantial and substantiated but you just run away and accuse me of nihilism because you can't respond without proving me right.
Topic's author
#144
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
Nihilism is the doctrine of negation.

That being the case, it is totally reasonable for me to believe that the intent of your conversation is to demolish everything down to nothing, or the nihil, and The Truth does not factor into your thinking so much as the effectiveness of the means used to bring about the end.

You are not having a conversation with me, you are simply using this little piece of knowledge falsely so called to dismiss everything I say outright and render it meaningless. 

You very consistently behave in a nihilistic or destructive manner. 


I am sure there are many pantheons that have a name for The Ultimate Reality, and without a doubt The Uncreated God is greater than any of these created pantheons. Your argument is stupid, because you are not discerning what is being discussed. 



#145
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
You lose fucknuckle

I add substance, you run away. The Canaanite Pantheon and your god's part in it is substantial and substantiated but you just run away and accuse me of nihilism because you can't respond without proving me right.
Your GOD was created in the Canaanite Pantheon of gods and the holy book you claim falsely your funny little religion wrote, confirms it.
Why don't you read what you claim your pathetic little religion wrote. That is just one of your lies of course because all of your books (bible) were written by JEWS.

Topic's author
#146
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
The Ultimate Reality as it Truly Is in essence, that is God.

It should be evident to any sensible person that God is incomprehensible, yet evidently existent.

Know that God exists, and have faith that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him!

Those who diligently seek Him will find Life in The Eternal Way of Truth.

The Way was established before all things, and it established all things.

To abide in The Way is to become divine by virtue of synergia with God. 

In The Way, man is reconciled to divinity.

The Way is Jesus Christ.

Life in The Eternal Way of Truth.

Worship of God in Spirit and Truth.

The Way is a road to be walked, a cross to carry. 

In Spirit and in Truth. In Trinity.

Glory to The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit who are blessed now and ever and unto ages of ages amen 


Topic's author
#147
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
"There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD."

"If this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."