After all this time you still have no idea about my beliefs lol.
This thread has simply enabled you to talk fluffy about your god. It doesn't challenge your theological beliefs or knowledge in the slightest.
Try these>>>> Post 21
What does God do for fun?
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@EtrnlVw
@Outplayz
you bring up some thoughts I had as well, if a person had experienced everything, had no challenges, there would be no purpose and would cease to exist. It's how to conceptualize an intelligence existing which has no or has exhausted all purpose. From my very limited perspective and knowledge, God must still be doing stuff or has ceased to exist for the reasons of either having a purpose or no longer having one. Hope that makes sense.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
you bring up some thoughts I had as well, if a person had experienced everything, had no challenges, there would be no purpose and would cease to exist.
Well with God this would be irrelevant simply because God cannot choose to cease to exist. Which is in part why I believe God creates worlds. This doesn't just happen one time, God creates again and again and on top of that creation is a multiverse. Meaning basically there are endless experiences, in light of just the physical universe alone it's estimated there are trillions of galaxies, with who knows how many planets within each. Multiverse meaning when you leave this plane of existence you are present within the next one. Call it afterlife or whatever. Since God has access to every channel of awareness God is always observing something new or different.
It's how to conceptualize an intelligence existing which has no or has exhausted all purpose. From my very limited perspective and knowledge, God must still be doing stuff or has ceased to exist for the reasons of either having a purpose or no longer having one. Hope that makes sense.
All but God can't cease to exist, awareness is as energy it's always present. Can't be destroyed and can't be created, however it CAN exist both within form and independent of form. This is one of the reasons I have compassion for God, it's not pleasant thinking about there is no way to cease to exist lol. Fortunately and unfortunately we are of that same nature.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I get what you mean, but to take this up to god level makes things tricky. Honestly, it is hard imagining what it would be like to be a god... especially with all the omni's (omnipotent, etc)... that is a crazy reality. I guess you can get close to that level with hallucinogens. But you still can't really imagine it. But, the point of purpose is why i don't think god is an individual and more of a platform. If god is a platform and is everything, then it's also something without purpose... it's also nothing bc god would also be the universe. The universe cannot distinguish bw being something and nothing, so if god is also the universe, it's also nothing while being everything else. That's why it's hard imagining what it would be like to be an "everything" god. But if this was a platform than basically we are all mini-gods in our own right with free choice to be something in nothing. So that's why i anthropomorphize... bc there is a chance that our minds are what creates realities. In this case, god would always be surprised living through our creativity therefore will infinitely have things to do through our creativity.
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@EtrnlVw
@Outplayz
@TheDredPriateRoberts
This convo is very interesting. I hope the clown doesn't derail it. I'd love to hear more of your ideas, especially outplayz' and etrnl's opinion on dredpirate's idea about sentience needing purpose in order to exist.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Naturally God must still exist.you bring up some thoughts I had as well, if a person had experienced everything, had no challenges, there would be no purpose and would cease to exist. It's how to conceptualize an intelligence existing which has no or has exhausted all purpose. From my very limited perspective and knowledge, God must still be doing stuff or has ceased to exist for the reasons of either having a purpose or no longer having one. Hope that makes sense.
If there is no ultimate reality, then nothing is ultimately real. As your experience scientifically proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is some form of existence. Even if what you are experiencing is illusory, it still exists as illusion. The Ultimate Reality means reality as it truly is. The perception of anything at all proves that there is reality as it is perceived, and a reality as it truly is.
So without knowing reality as it truly is, we can know reality as it truly is.
All of creation testifies to the existence of God.
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@ethang5
@Outplayz
@Mopac
I really appreciate your thoughts and perspectives, they are most interesting and this is a lot of fun (for lack of a better word)
Having thought more about this as well as what you all have posted, to me the theories of multiple dimensions seems to fit (11 dimensions is the most I have heard of so far)
The perception of anything at all proves that there is reality as it is perceived, and a reality as it truly is.
it's interesting all the things past, perceived as impossible or not to exist only to find out otherwise.
"Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat. And fifteen minutes ago, you knew that people were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
Men in Black.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The thing is, even if there were multiple universes, those universes would only exist by the being that God gives them.
God is the source of all being.
The existence of God is a certainty. Much more so than commonly accepted "facts".
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Having thought more about this as well as what you all have posted, to me the theories of multiple dimensions seems to fit (11 dimensions is the most I have heard of so far)
This definitely is very interesting and I have found there are several religious sources that provide insight into multiple dimensions, or multiverses. And we know in Christianity of at least one other dimension. I hesitate to call them dimensions though, I believe they are actually universes basically like the one we are currently in. Only the physical universe and the physical bodies being the most coarse, limited and carnal level of experience.
So we have pretty much every religion and spiritual source you can think of that confirms of other realities beyond the physical universe experience. Even Buddhism gives rise to many planes of existence same with Hinduism, Eckankar has the created worlds divided between duality and non-duality which I find fascinating....five lower realms where duality exists and five or more pure conscious realms where duality loses its grasp. The five lower realms or universes consist of the physical (senses), astral (emotion), causal (memory), mental (mind) and etheric (intuition) and you have a corresponding "body" for each world. These worlds correspond with each layer or part of the full scope of our perceptions, they are the embodiment of all we experience cast over parallel universes.
This of course lines right up with NDE's and even soul travel, as the conscious soul leaves the physical body they are present in the spirit (astral) body....and so forth.
This also makes perfect sense with an eternal Creator which grants the individual soul with an endless opportunity of experiences, since the soul is also eternal by nature the moment it is created and sent into creation it needs the proper amount of "space" to fully express itself as it matures and progresses. So basically when you leave this form you could be in one of many parts of the created worlds! that could be both good or bad depending on the soul though lol. However it makes things very, very interesting indeed.
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@ethang5
especially outplayz' and etrnl's opinion on dredpirate's idea about sentience needing purpose in order to exist.
I would say the need for purpose in order to exist would be irrelevant. It's more the want for purpose as it exists, it's the nature of the conscious soul to want to express itself. God is also this way which is why God creates and continues to create in so many ways we are unaware of. God exists despite any of that though, God exists whether or not there is ever a purpose. But as God is a Creator, it is the desire to bring things into existence.
I know it may be unorthodox to claim God desires anything but that's the nature of what God is. Even if we were to say "God is love", it's the nature of love to express that in all different ways.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
It was a while back i was researching dimension concepts from string theory people, but from what i remember... they gave a couple scenarios, the last being that there could be infinite dimensions. And, if we are talking about an omni god, i don't see why there would be an limits on dimensions since an incorporeal consciousness can infinitely exist in dimension after dimension. Again, this can be demonstrated through probability of what humans are capable of. If we create simulations... how many simulations are we deep in? Wouldn't we be able to download into simulation after simulation... infinitely? I think the person that came up with the simulation argument argues it is much more likely that we are in a simulation now. But the thing that begs the question is who were the first to create a simulation... and, where did the first come from. I think that would be answered by a god type platform that has always existed. In which case, i would say this god is lost, or very deep, into realities now. Maybe it doesn't even know it's god anymore and that was its purpose to escape being infinite.to me the theories of multiple dimensions seems to fit (11 dimensions is the most I have heard of so far)
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@ethang5
@EtrnlVw
@Outplayz
@Mopac
it quickly gets mind blowing for me. looked up the other night, it was clear, just thinking about how little we actually know, even though what we do know is so much more than hundreds of years ago or how much we can see, makes us look so insignificant.
I guess so long as there is change, the different possibilities (dimensions) would also continue and even grow. I believe that is one of the "dimensions"
it seems many of these are explained and seen from a single point of view or as an individual. How that relates, intergrades or has any role etc with others I haven't heard.
some religions, I seem to recall, describe different levels of heaven, a hierarchy where you can go down at will but must work or earn to go up.
these ideas seem rather antisocial than social which is strange since we are generally social beings.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Good religion is about how to conduct oneself in a manner that is pure and honest. To walk in The Way of Truth.
It has very little to do with speculation about uncertain things. In fact, it is not necessary to be an educated person at all to abide in The Way.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
it quickly gets mind blowing for me. looked up the other night, it was clear, just thinking about how little we actually know, even though what we do know is so much more than hundreds of years ago or how much we can see, makes us look so insignificant.
BUT, we do know a lot and actually even though it can be, creation is not supposed to be some mystery. We have access to all things God, you, I and everybody else are connected to that Reality.
I guess so long as there is change, the different possibilities (dimensions) would also continue and even grow. I believe that is one of the "dimensions"
Yeah I think so too, everything is in a state of evolving in a way including the individual soul. Having said that I think the created "dimensions" are already set, but like Legos they can be arranged and rearranged as well.
it seems many of these are explained and seen from a single point of view or as an individual. How that relates, intergrades or has any role etc with others I haven't heard.
As I said earlier, you are connected at every level of creation from the Godhead down through all the dimensions. You just don't know it because your soul is confined to a physical body within the physical realm, so what you perceive is through this body like looking through a mask....if you were to pull away from that mask you would be perceiving through a different level. You actually have several "masks" or what are known as subtle bodies that cover your conscious soul. For example, when you leave the physical body you will then be present in the astral body within the astral dimension. This can happen several more times.
some religions, I seem to recall, describe different levels of heaven, a hierarchy where you can go down at will but must work or earn to go up.
Very good, and also correct. There's also different levels of hell, and in between earth and these hells is what is known as the ghost realm. This is like an intermediate area where not so good souls are cast to determine their future dwelling. People see these spirits all the time. But yeah, once you progress to a higher more elevated part of creation you are free to travel "down", but an immature soul can do damage to a higher dimension so they must progress first.
these ideas seem rather antisocial than social which is strange since we are generally social beings.
I don't think so, it's more an unknown territory but certainly not antisocial. It will become more known and discussed in time. People don't generally think about these types of things because they are more focused on what they immediately perceive. But God is quite tricky lol, as well more creative than most would assume.
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@EtrnlVw
the possibilities are astounding if you try to comprehend it all with an open mind (imo), not that I can even begin to really comprehend it.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
the possibilities are astounding if you try to comprehend it all with an open mind (imo),
Yes they are, having an open-mind and being flexible are good qualities especially if a person wants to be intellectually honest. You come across as a good man.
not that I can even begin to really comprehend it.
Ask me any questions, any at all. I can take you as far as you want to go. Creation is not really that complicated, it's just incredible dynamic. From the Creator, to the soul, into creation.... there's a science behind it all.
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@EtrnlVw
Creation is not really that complicated
for me, when you try and apply infinite regression, that throws a monkey wrench into it or me.
I encounter a lot of people at work, when I see some, the lives they had/have, physical issues/illnesses, I often wonder about how our experiences are so vastly different good/bad, why? all the experiences I will never have, the ones I will have are infeticimile to the possible ones. Given that, why bother at all (from God's perspective) it's trivial compared to what we have discussed.
it's difficult because there's so much we don't know for context.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
for me, when you try and apply infinite regression, that throws a monkey wrench into it or me.
Well all knowledge and processes (all things existing) begin with an omnipresent, static, fixed Reality...out of which all things originate. It's from this state or Reality, that all processes begin so there isn't really an infinite regression per say and actually begin from a greater state to a lesser state of existence consciously speaking. These processes are explainable and easy to understand if you can grasp the nature of consciousness.
God is the full state of knowing, existing and awareness and all things that come out of the Reality are lesser states. Consciousness by nature is much more like energy and exists at endless levels of awareness, but these are just varying frequencies of awareness isolated from a full state of awareness.
I encounter a lot of people at work, when I see some, the lives they had/have, physical issues/illnesses, I often wonder about how our experiences are so vastly different good/bad, why?
Our experiences are correlated with what the individual soul needs to learn or experience and our conscious states of existence are on varying levels of awareness. The soul actually agrees or knows before hand where it will go in creation, but loses its freedom to choose if it leads a prior poor life or an unsatisfactory example. When you understand the full implications of an eternal soul, these temporal lives lose their immediate perspective of what they may entail.
all the experiences I will never have, the ones I will have are infeticimile to the possible ones. Given that, why bother at all (from God's perspective) it's trivial compared to what we have discussed.
Because each experience is tailored to you personally, it is your own journey and it's how you learn about yourself and how your soul progresses. It's through these little experiences that this can even happen even if they seem trivial at first glance. Outside of that having experiences opposed to no experience is not fun at all. Existing in a state of consciousness with no way to express your creativity and desires is a prison. This is about learning as well as having fun, but learning can include very bad situations, and learning from your mistakes can be a great price to pay depending on who you are. All in all the experience of life is all the soul really has, and it will embrace that, and at some point it is better than not.
it's difficult because there's so much we don't know for context.
That depends on who you ask I guess.
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@EtrnlVw
Of course.That depends on who you ask I guess.
It depends upon who you are prepared to listen to, which in turn depends upon if what is being said is what you want to listen to.
Especially if you are not prepared to listen to both sides of a discussion, or in fact are not programmed to do so.
I would suggest looking at God as a metaphor, applying a tad bit more rationale to your thinking and extracting yourself from the biblical murk that you have been conditioned to accept.
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@EtrnlVw
it just seems with such limited time (more so for some) and in context with the vastness of everything and time, this extremely limited time and experience seems so inadequate with the limited experiences and knowledge we gain over a lifetime.
perhaps I'll need to see what I can find as to why souls were created in the first place but that seems like the infinite regression problem.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
it just seems with such limited time (more so for some) and in context with the vastness of everything and time, this extremely limited time and experience seems so inadequate with the limited experiences and knowledge we gain over a lifetime.
I'm not sure what the problem is, can you help me understand what it is you're saying? I understand what you wrote, I'm not sure if you are objecting to something or just saying something...
perhaps I'll need to see what I can find as to why souls were created in the first place but that seems like the infinite regression problem.
I went over some of this in my first post. Souls are created because this enables the Creator to experience something outside the alone state. In other words if God, which exists alone, created no souls there would be no other experience outside Itself. This is also the creative expression of God, souls are the ultimate creation kind of like the Frankenstein story lol, only not a nightmare or a monster. When God creates a soul it is something that is very special to God, a soul is a tiny part of Itself. You are a reflection of God's heart and soul, that is the single most greatest thing God can create.
God sends the soul into creation and then has access to that experience, in other words God experiences everything through you.
I don't recognize an infinite regression problem, souls are created from a singular fixed Reality. Meaning all souls originate from an Ultimate Soul AKA God and there is nothing before that, nothing that precedes that. And one thing to consider is that time does not exist outside of creation, time is the passing of what we know as the universe (material structure), but God is not on a time scale, rather exists independent of time.
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@zedvictor4
Especially if you are not prepared to listen to both sides of a discussion, or in fact are not programmed to do so.
What are you even babbling about?
I would suggest looking at God as a metaphor, applying a tad bit more rationale to your thinking and extracting yourself from the biblical murk that you have been conditioned to accept.
None of that makes any sense, especially in light of my conversation with Dred, as a matter of fact I don't even think we mentioned the Bible in all of what we were discussing. Again, what are you even babbling about?
God is not a metaphor, that's just your silly opinion.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I think Mormons are one of those religions. Some eastern religion talk about karma and levels too. I don't know. The way i look at it is all of it could be true. Maybe that is the heaven they come from so that is what they know. If god is infinite and everything... that is pretty wild. That would mean everything we have thought of... and beyond is known by this "god." Therefore, if i think there is levels to heaven and believe that... maybe that's true for me. However, i tend to think there are no levels... my personal belief that connects most to me, or i hope for, is that i am simply an infinite being manifesting into finite experiences. This is bc i believe, very much so, being infinite would be frightening. I'd rather just get there, be like "oh shit" ... then, manifest into my next finite experience. I hope it happens this way... but if it happens another way, or nothing at all... i guess i'll just have to deal with it like everything else. Either we move forward or we don't, but if you do move forward... it's best to be confident that you'll meet that journey with a smile.some religions, I seem to recall, describe different levels of heaven, a hierarchy where you can go down at will but must work or earn to go up.
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@EtrnlVw
I'm not objecting to anything. My view is one life time experience is so tiny and restricted compared to what is described in the time period after this life, it seems rather inadequate in the context, rather trivial really. Which then raises the question, why even bother?
the discussion/theory of "nothing" is also interesting
certainly we are limited in so many ways, including our understanding. we have limits and we understand and are bound by them, I'm not sure how to even imagine anything without limits, or a beginning.
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@Outplayz
that's interesting we have similar thoughts. the thought of not having my body, remaining me, the individual is frighting as you described. to think we are just extensions of one thing and we'd just be absorbed into it and loose our individualism doesn't sound fun.
I don't know what I believe but I do like to discuss it.
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@Outplayz
However, i tend to think there are no levels... my personal belief that connects most to me, or i hope for, is that i am simply an infinite being manifesting into finite experiences.
Ironically that is actually why there are levels, or a multiverse. You can't have endless possibilities or experiences on one planet or one physical realm. The physical is restricted and limited as are these physical bodies, so you would be delighted to know there exist places more like sci-fi. If you eventually want more wild experiences there must be a place for that too, that's the cool part about these levels....it's not a bad thing. I mean compare for example NDE experiences to our normal experiences here in this realm and you will see what I mean and that's just the beginning, there are many more levels beyond just the net one or the astral plane.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'm not objecting to anything. My view is one life time experience is so tiny and restricted compared to what is described in the time period after this life, it seems rather inadequate in the context, rather trivial really. Which then raises the question, why even bother?
We bother because without experiences there is nothing else, the physical plane is just one experience of many. When you leave the physical body, there are places where you can have experiences that last for eons. But again, wouldn't you rather have experiences of all kinds? short term...long term, trivial, extravagant ect ect. Since you will always exist at one level or another there's no reason to NOT have experiences. You're here aren't you? that speaks for itself.
the discussion/theory of "nothing" is also interesting
Lol, the theory of nothing? can "nothing" even be a theory? just kidding around, do you mean nothing as like nothing exists beyond this experience?
certainly we are limited in so many ways, including our understanding. we have limits and we understand and are bound by them, I'm not sure how to even imagine anything without limits, or a beginning.
Pure conscious awareness is without limits or a beginning. It's just a fixed reality not bound by anything, for example when you close your eyes, sleep or are meditating notice your conscious awareness has no limits, no form, no boundaries....basically anything you want to think of you can think of, anywhere you want to go you can go, consciousness is just like that.
Having said that your physical body and brain confine you to this particular world and experience, so it actually reduces what you really are, it limits you to what you can do but when you leave this physical body you will have much more freedom and less restriction.
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@EtrnlVw
nothing as in the absence of anything/everything, everything/place must have something, thus you can't have nothing.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Agreed.
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@EtrnlVw
Oh, i agree on those types of levels. I just don't agree i have to do anything special to get to those levels. Like, i don't think i have to relive this life 100 times before i'm ready for the next level... or how Mormons say you should do this or that to get to this level of heaven. I simply think i will just pick the next experience in whatever next level i probably have already planned out.Ironically that is actually why there are levels, or a multiverse.