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@PGA2.0
How is Christianity superior to other religions?The Christian religion is reasonable and logical and I argue necessary in making sense of existence.
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@ludofl3x
An accusation certainly is a type of evidence, though it is in most circumstances not prudent or wise to take this evidence as proof.
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@Mopac
An accusation needs to be supported by evidence. The only thing a claim or an accusation is evidence of is that someone thinks or says something happened. This has no bearing on if it did or didn't happen in reality. Or even in the Ultimate Reality. Or the super duper Ultimately Awesome Reality. Which is presided over by the Ultimate Warrior.
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@ludofl3x
Can you make your argument without referring to any other worldview to do so? This way you're not saying "Mine doesn't make sense all the way either, but I think yours makes less sense, therefore mine is correct". Consider it an open challenge
I have taken the reigns on this in another thread and given you the steps that connect the dots but all you're capable of doing is claiming "God of the Gaps" argument in replace of a rebuttal (which it isn't, it's just a way to avoid an argument when an opponent begins to make sense). It seems when someone does as you just asked you still aren't able to consider it. So I fail to see your reason for nagging PGA to explain himself. Perhaps find that thread and go back over what I spent the time to write.
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@EtrnlVw
I have taken the reigns on this in another thread and given you the steps that connect the dots
You mean by saying "open your mind!" and "I have the knowledge that heaven is really a physical planet, and all religions have their own planets, and you could travel there if you had a spaceship powerful enough"? Your special knowledge which, like god of the gaps, you refuse to comprehend? You make claims, not arguments. I can't even tell what religion you think is right, but every one of these religious phonies in here thinks you're wrong too, they just won't tell you.
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@ludofl3x
When a 3 year old accuses someone of doing inappropriate things to them, that is a type of evidence whether or not it acts as proof.
The Ultimate Reality means that which is ultimately real. It is no extraordinary thing to believe in the existence of God.
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@ludofl3x
You mean by saying "open your mind!" and "I have the knowledge that heaven is really a physical planet, and all religions have their own planets, and you could travel there if you had a spaceship powerful enough"? Your special knowledge which, like god of the gaps, you refuse to comprehend? You make claims, not arguments. I can't even tell what religion you think is right, but every one of these religious phonies in here thinks you're wrong too, they just won't tell you.
We had two separate discussions Ludo....and perhaps in the heat of the exchange you glossed over some of my points. Would you like me to link you to that? you present a challenge to make sense (arguments) then you claim the explanations are just claims lol, wow.
You mock me about planets and yet the universe is chock full of galaxies WITH planets, does that make sense when planets are for the purpose of inhabiting?
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@ludofl3x
I can't even tell what religion you think is right, but every one of these religious phonies in here thinks you're wrong too, they just won't tell you.
How is that relevant to anything we ever discussed? and I openly told you I approach religions and spirituality as a whole, they call that an Omnist, do you know what an Omnist is Ludo??
What that means son, is that I recognize there are truths, facts and insights within many religions and spiritual texts not just one. Simple stuff.
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@EtrnlVw
you present a challenge to make sense (arguments) then you claim the explanations are just claims lol, wow.
What I present is the question "How does your version of the cause of the universe 'make sense' of existence." I am sure PGA appreciates you standing up for him, but saying "because Jesus" isn't making sense of anything as I understand the phrase making sense of something. It's not a why, it's a how. Those are two different things. Where I say the explanations are just claims is when someone says "The bible explains it, in the bible." By this standard, Harry Potter books in 1000 years can be viewed as the history of magic in the late 20th century, because those books are internally consistent and prophesy that one of the characters is the chosen one.
You mock me about planets and yet the universe is chock full of galaxies WITH planets, does that make sense when planets are for the purpose of inhabiting?
Right, but you said it's in a different dimension, so I'd need an extra special spaceship like the one I guess you had that confirmed all that. Unless I misunderstood and it's in this dimension and universe, in which case you should be well able to win a nobel prize by pointing a telescope at the Hindu planet of heaven. Literally not one theist besides you seems to think that dying is some sort of relocation process, and your argument that it is seems to be "Well I have the open mind, you don't that's why you don't know this for sure." That applies to every single other person on this board, not just to atheists. You've also claimed the soul has been demonstrated and confirmed and then never explained how.
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@EtrnlVw
Okay, pops, so you're basically the opposite of an atheist, you believe literally everything?
I recognize there are truths, facts and insights within many religions and spiritual texts not just one.
There are truths, facts and insights in every text ever written. Seriously, Horton Hatches the Egg has plenty of insight and truth and fact in it. Is that a spiritual text?
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@ludofl3x
There are only two reasonable possibilities, we exist due to design or chance happenstance, creation or chance, intent or indifference.How are you certain these are the only possibilities? Start there and then make your argument.
Can you think of any other reasonable possibility that you would like to discuss with me? If you think there are other reasonable starting points for our existence then please list them.
X makes sense for it is logically consistent and reasonable to believe.This is distinctly different from "x is true."
What is necessary for truth? What is believed has to correspond to what is the case. So, when you start from a false belief you tend to build upon that framework. Jesus put it this way,
"The Two Foundations
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes." Matthew 7:24-29 (NASB)
28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes." Matthew 7:24-29 (NASB)
I believe it is true yet you do not. How could I ever prove to you something you do not want to accept as true? You will make up excuses not to believe the Christian framework because you understand that your worldview, everything you hold to, would have to be rejected if you are wrong. So there is a lot at stake. It brings up the point of epistemology and how you know what you know by your limited subjective mind? When I say that, I certainly believe that you can know some truth about our universe and how things operate but I believe it is not because you are working from your starting point - mindless, indifferent, purposely, random happenstance - but you work from the theistic starting point. You find reason and logic and purpose for what is here in all its intricacy and complexity. You continually find reasons for things that should not make sense in a mindless, indifferent, meaningless universe. Why is that? Thus, I do not believe your starting point or core beliefs are necessary for knowing the truth.
Also, atheism attacks the foundation of truth and righteousness, IMO. When the majority believe a lie and destroy the foundation for truth the Bible has this to say,
"If the foundations are destroyed, What can the righteous do?” Psalm 11:3
Righteousness has to do with what is right, thus morality, but if there is no fixed point for what is right, no ultimate standard and reference point, then whose relative point of view wins the day? Is it going to be yours? Therefore, it is important that you can justify what you believe as true morally. Can you do that? I do not believe you can for I do not believe your worldview has what is necessary to do so. It is again not something you would want to admit. There is a fight for truth and a fight for morality taking place in our culture and more people are turning liberal-minded and, IMO, stop thinking soundly on such issues but accept group-think and the propaganda of the culture they live in.
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@PGA2.0
Can you think of any other reasonable possibility that you would like to discuss with me? If you think there are other reasonable starting points for our existence then please list them.
I asked how you know those are the only two possibilities. You said "Well do you have any better ideas." This is essentially how I see your entire argument, and why it's so unconvincing. You cannot explain how you arrive even at this dichotomy when I inquire directly. How you know there's only chance or creation? You seem rather certain so it should be easy to explain. Not "I believe the two most likely options are," no, you KNOW, right? All I'm asking is for an explanation of how, considering both you and I have witnessed the birth of exactly the same number of universes.
People talk about "God of the gaps"
What is chance supposed to be?
Sounds like a god of the gaps to me.
However the universe came to be, one can be certain that the universe has its existence in The Ultimate Reality, which is God, and this God did not come into being, but always was, always is, and forever will be.
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@Mopac
What is chance supposed to be?Sounds like a god of the gaps to me.
Look it up, because you don't understand what the god of the gaps idea is.
God did not come into being, but always was, always is, and forever will be.
While you're at it, check out special pleading.
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@ludofl3x
It isn't special pleading, because the uncreated and created have distinct natures.
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@Alec
The Christian religion is reasonable and logical and I argue necessary in making sense of existence.How is Christianity superior to other religions?
I contend it explains the world and universe better than others (and I invite you to test it against your own worldview, whatever that may be), but there is internal and external evidence that supports the Bible more so than other religious texts. The unity of the Bible is like no other religious book that I have read. Of course, there is also the witness of the Father, Son, and Spirit for those who humble themselves before God and trust His word. That is when He opens Himself to us when we put our faith and trust in Him. I often ask others how they could know God if they do not believe He exists? All you could do is know about Him (funnily enough since you would deny Him yet still discuss Him and He would come to mind), and it is not a coincidence how many do know about Him yet do not know Him.
Thus, I leave you with a thought from Scripture and a few more comments,
Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
So, I ask you, if you do not trust such words how are you going to know He exists in your heart, or that He is a rewarder of those who seek and believe Him. Those who do not turn back once they start the journey but continue on steadfast until He shows Himself to our minds and through His creation find confirmation in His word of truth. But even if they are not steadfast, my hope is that they would realize their folly and seek Him again in repentance and for forgiveness. Our faith hinges on the Lord Jesus Christ and who He is, and what He has done (not us) for He has provided what is necessary to know God, Himself being the eternal Son, the living Word who speaks to our hearts in truth.
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@Mopac
the uncreated and created have distinct natures.
I almost can't ask this with a straight face: please explain in english words the difference between the natures of something that is created versus something that is uncreated.
<br>how many do know about Him yet do not know Him.
I can say the same about Darth Vader. More people know about him, discuss him and the universe he lives in, than know him. THerefore he is equal to Jesus.
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@ludofl3x
The created exists relatively.
The Uncreated exists absolutely.
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@Mopac
The Uncreated exists absolutely.
Uh huh, and how can I tell this to be the case? What demonstration can I see? Or how many examples of uncreated things can I look at and compare to created things?
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@ludofl3x
The Ultimate Reality by nature is a singularity, that is, there is nothing else comparable to it. Created things are by nature only existent in relation to other existing things.
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@ludofl3x
Can you think of any other reasonable possibility that you would like to discuss with me? If you think there are other reasonable starting points for our existence then please list them.I asked how you know those are the only two possibilities. You said "Well do you have any better ideas."
I have given you my two cents. It boils down to logic and common sense. How can there be any other (and I will say it again) REASONABLE possibility? Either there is an intention behind our being or it is a fluke, chance happenstance. If you disagree then please list some other possibility. I could give a few that are unreasonable, like an illusion or everything is just my mind creating it. Can you reasonably say you are an eternal necessary being? You could say we can't know. 'We do not know' does not make sense of anything. Yet is that not what our worldviews do? They build on one of two foundations. Those are creation or chance. Can you list others?
Is this a two-way dialogue? I have asked you to discuss your thoughts on why we are here. Then we can examine the logic and reason for such a view.
This is essentially how I see your entire argument, and why it's so unconvincing. You cannot explain how you arrive even at this dichotomy when I inquire directly. How you know there's only chance or creation?
And I see your argument as hiding.
How I arrive, or humanity arrives, or the universe arrives is that an intelligent, mindful, omniscient, necessary, eternal Being chose to create. Is that reasonable? Show me it is not so we can discuss it and I can examine the reason behind your belief.
What is the alternative? Please state what you believe and tell me why my belief is not the reasonable one.
You seem rather certain so it should be easy to explain.
I have what is necessary for certainty. That is an omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, omnibenevolent, true, unchanging Being as described in the Bible. Now, you can argue He does not exist but does your worldview have what is necessary for knowledge and truth?
Not "I believe the two most likely options are," no, you KNOW, right? All I'm asking is for an explanation of how, considering both you and I have witnessed the birth of exactly the same number of universes.
Both of us appeal to authority. Do you believe that?
So, what is your highest authority you can appeal to? I appeal to Someone who says He is the Creator of this universe. You appeal to limited mindful beings who were not there.
You appeal to science as your authority, perhaps some fallible human being or beings on a subject such as a universe or existence. As you say, neither of us has witnessed the origin of the universe, as has no other human being. Thus, as I have said many times before, scientists INTERPRET that data. It does not come already interpreted. Scientists work from the present looking back at the past. So they really on their thinking that the present is the KEY to the past. You and I usually work from one of two paradigms or foundations, that of creation or chance happenstance, or perhaps a combination of the two (i.e., God wound it up and let it be).
So, I suggest you lay out what you believe in the existence of both ourselves and the universe and let us see which of our two views is more reasonable and logical (i.e., which makes sense). Of course, you can live life being illogical and irrationally and not tackle the issue of what makes sense. That is also your choice, but if you want to live your life that way then I ask you not to dismiss my view so easily. IMO, a view that is not justifiable is not worth believing. There again, you live as you choose.
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@ludofl3x
Sorry, I did not see this post since you did not address it to me. I miss many that way.
how many do know about Him yet do not know Him.<br>I can say the same about Darth Vader. More people know about him, discuss him and the universe he lives in, than know him.
They know him as a fictitious character. We can prove that.
Do you KNOW God that way? Can you disprove God?
THerefore he is equal to Jesus.
How can Darth Vader be equal? Does he have the same attributes of Jesus? Does he claim to be Jesus? No, he does not. So, it is illogical and ill-founded to say that.
PS. I will quite often miss a post unless you direct it to me.
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@PGA2.0
I could give a few that are unreasonable, like an illusion or everything is just my mind creating it.
How did you rule these OUT?
I have asked you to discuss your thoughts on why we are here.
And I have asked you what this means. I can't answer the question.
How I arrive, or humanity arrives, or the universe arrives is that an intelligent, mindful, omniscient, necessary, eternal Being chose to create. Is that reasonable?
It's reasonable if you can provide evidence of this being, and then explain how you assign all those qualities to it. Start with "necessary," it's an adjective your Frank Turek-lite, William Lane Craigish argument seeks to sneak in without explaining it. Why MUST it be there?
Both of us appeal to authority. Do you believe that?
No. I look at the information that's independently verifiable and make a conclusion.
Of course, you can live life being illogical and irrationally and not tackle the issue of what makes sense.
You also never explain in practical terms how this makes a difference in your every day life, or what I'm unable to do that you can based on this belief of yours. Or why so many people don't believe it, how are THOSE people making sense of life? If you mean "assigning cause to life," please say that, not "making sense of life's big questions."
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@PGA2.0
Do you KNOW God that way? Can you disprove God?
He's in books. Darth Vader's in books. Why do we know him as a fictional character? His story takes place a long time ago in a different galaxy. Can you PROVE the story was not transmitted directly to George Lucas? Because I have a picture with Darth Vader, like a real one who was walking around. Do YOU have a real picture with God? Seems like I have personal proof of Darth Vader being real to me.
How can Darth Vader be equal?
He is in books, he is in movies, he is in academic studies, he has magic powers. Okay, so he's not nice like people say Jesus was. But he's equal to Jesus in this way, but he's better than Jesus when it comes to having a space ship. There's plenty of evidence that Darth Vader is at least as real as Jesus. I am being only slightly facetious. You religious types aren't exactly world renowned for your sense of humor about stuff like this. :)
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@ludofl3x
I could give a few that are unreasonable, like an illusion or everything is just my mind creating it.How did you rule these OUT?
Because my senses tell me otherwise. They painfully speak out to me when I snap my wrist into a forty-five-degree angle and I can't imagine otherwise. I am not willing to deny the actual physical world.
I do not remember existing forever so I seem to have a beginning.
If you are a creation of my mind why am I having such a disagreeable battle with myself?
Why do I believe you exist?
Why is anything meaningful if all is an illusion?
Try living like life is an illusion and see what happens. (^8
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@ludofl3x
I have asked you to discuss your thoughts on why we are here.And I have asked you what this means. I can't answer the question.
It means why do we exist? What is the reason you are here? Why is there something rather than nothing?
If you believe there is no reason why you exist why do you hold to a particular worldview that believes humanity is a chance, freak, accident but live inconsistently with such a worldview when you make things matter? You live inconsistently when you keep looking for an explanation and meaning for life. Why should there be any? Why are you on such a forum debating such things or at least trying to throw a monkey wrench into a belief that you oppose and believe is wrong? Why should you care? What does it matter? Can you answer these questions?
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@ludofl3x
How I arrive, or humanity arrives, or the universe arrives is that an intelligent, mindful, omniscient, necessary, eternal Being chose to create. Is that reasonable?It's reasonable if you can provide evidence of this being, and then explain how you assign all those qualities to it.
The Bible is evidence for this Being. So, how reasonable is that evidence? Take prophecies. Is it reasonable to believe that Jerusalem, and all that it entails with the Old Covenant, was destroyed in AD 70 and that prophecy said this would happen in many details hundreds of years before they happened? The promised Messiah was likewise also prophesied hundreds of years before NT times. Is it reasonable to believe that He would come to a people that no longer exist in covenant with God (i.e., are no longer able to keep the covenant as it required them to do)? He was prophesied to come to such people? How were those prophecies specific to a particular time in history? Do you know?
Not only this, do you understand the unity and consistency of the whole 66 writings? How well do you understand the imagery and typology, the comparison and contrast of the two covenants? Have you studied that aspect? How well do you understand what you have rejected? Can we test your knowledge to see? Are you willing to go there? If not, it speaks volumes to my mind.
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@ludofl3x
Start with "necessary," it's an adjective your Frank Turek-lite, William Lane Craigish argument seeks to sneak in without explaining it.
Definition of necessary
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : absolutely needed : required Food is necessary for life.
b(1) : logically unavoidable a necessary conclusion
(2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction
c : determined or produced by the previous condition of things the necessary outcome of the affair
d : compulsory Taking the oath of obedience is necessary.
Which arguments are those?
Again, I'm asking you which of our two worldviews, yours or mine, makes a better sense of why we exist or what is the actual case?
Why MUST it be there?
What do you mean by 'it'? Do you mean 1) God, 2) necessity or 3) our existence and the universe?
1) Regarding God, you are not a being that is necessary for determining origins. You are not a necessary being for the existence of other beings. You, nor I has what it takes in and of ourselves to be such a being. But God being who He is and God revealing what or how things happened gives us the necessary standard for such knowledge.
2) Regarding necessity, what is necessary to make sense of our existence or the universe? Do you think chance happenstance is?
3) I do not believe the universe must be here. I believe it and you are here because of the grace of God. He chose to create it and us.
More to the point, why is it here?
Can you make sense of it being here?
Can you make sense of morality?
Can you make sense of the uniformity of nature?