And yet another ad hominem attack coupled with an appeal to ignorance.Now we know you're lying, that claim would demand you have read every single post of Et, here and ddo.
I study spirituality as a whole so he is just trying to sabotage my discussions
My foundation is the Gospels of Jesus
No, you were just caught in a lie. Own up to it.And yet another ad hominem attack coupled with an appeal to ignorance.
I would like to think that you of all people would be able to understand the difference between quanta and qualia.
What experiences?
How do you determine that any look beyond the physical gleans accurate results, rather than just imaginings produced by the brain? The ability to be able to determine such a difference is the crux of this entire discussion. It's why I ask how things would be different if the brain produced consciousness. If we can verify that the states would produce different results and then determine which result actually is, then we'd have reason to believe one over the other. So far you've presented nothing that does that.
Yet another predictable personal attack from Goldtop.Lol. One thing I certainly understand is when someone with poor reading comprehension skills pretends to act intelligent.
Supposition, why do you assert the mind wouldn't be able to observe itself?
The question is simple. I am asking you to consider the alternative position (the key to open-mindedness I think), if the brain produced the consciousness how would what we observe be different? When you answer include how you can know this answer is correct. If you cannot know that there would be a difference, then assuming either position is true seems pointless and counter-productive to learning truth.
Yet how does it show its answers are correct? What are the means of verification? Again how would things be different if the consciousness were the product of the brain? Also, what can you observe that transcends the physical? How do you observe it? Honestly, you seem to be either avoiding or unable to answer my questions. I've asked what your observations are, how you verify that your observations are accurate and why they would require your worldview to be true to occur, so far you haven't answered any of these questions.
Yet how does it show its answers are correct?
What are the means of verification?
Again how would things be different if the consciousness were the product of the brain?
Also, what can you observe that transcends the physical?
How do you observe it?
Also ultimte can mean last in a series. In which 'God' becomes the last reality rather than the 'realiest'. This is one reason the definition seems meaningless, the other is that we've no way of knowing there are multiple degrees of reality, which means ultimate reality is pretty meaningless as a definition. It presents no traits or concepts beyond the idea that it is real (it isn't even that clear on if it's the most real or simply last in a series of real things), at least the definition:
1(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.Gives clear traits.
I will reiterate, regardless of what a person posts, only the individual themself can either confirm or deny their personal motivations.
... this old man ... that kind of trashy behavior. I ignore em 99% of the time...
That is entirely false, human experience has never shown consciousness outside of the brain, that is what YOU dictate. Since you've claimed your experiences include visiting God Worlds and talking with Spiritual Beings and Overlords there, it's not very likely your claim of consciousness is not produced by the brain or mind has any merit.I explained in the other post is that consciousness cannot be experienced away from the brain or the body if it were produced by the brain.That's pretty much commonsense, your experience would be confined to only your brain and there would be no conscious experience away from it....but human experience and as well as my own dictate that it is certainly true that consciousness is not produced by the brain OR the mind.
Yet God is not simply the last, but The First, The Last, and The Inbetween. So no, I am giving you the proper definition, the realest reality.
The Supreme Being, which by the way means the same as Ultimate Reality if understood correctly(thats a hint), certainly is the creater and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority. The hardest one here to grasp might be moral authority, but that is because people don't see that moral authority comes from truth, not personal whim.
And yes, this is how the monotheist God is understood. The Supreme Being, that is, The Ultimate Reality. Highest Existence.And every single one of your superstitions concerning God that you have expressed melts away in realizing the identity of God. That might also be a hard one to grasp where here in recent times self declaration is seen as proof of identity. God realliy Is what God Is. The Ultimate Reality.
Spiritual type/based experiences......encounters with spiritual beings, spiritual visions and observation from applying spiritual principles and practices and what those results produce.
Number one, consciousness (the soul) can be experienced outside the physical body literally, not figuratively....outside meaning outside the brain and away from the material body. You see this evidence with NDE's and spiritual experiences, it's the same every single time.....the soul is capable of leaving the body after brain death and there is a show series that has documented cases after case of NDE's with up to an hour or more after brain death. All these testimonies of people can tell you exactly what was happening and what people were saying while they are far away from their physical body and brain, physical eyes shut, no responses.
Your consciousness, if it were produced by the brain, would be impossible to be away and travel from the body. However the soul can travel freely outside the body and it has been shown for thousands of years and I can show you how this works and why people have spiritual encounters. There is a science to spirituality and the soul and it fits perfectly with what we see and the extent of human experiences so there is no real reason to keep opposing it for an inferior belief.
In spirituality it's much like a deep self reflection/evaluation and cultivation and often times more than not it does not reflect what the applicants mind and brain normally produce, part of the process of spirituality is learning and observing the difference between the actual conscious soul and the physical perceptions and material body and they produce different things entirely, and that is because a spiritual reality exists outside the physical perceptions and is not dependent on our human bodies, brains or mind. There are actual realities that exist at a different frequency and vibration of energies than we perceive in human form and the bodies that correlate with these realms are called subtle bodies or spirit body. They exist at a much higher and finer vibration than the sluggish, heavy physical body but your actual consciousness and where it originated is both formless and pure conscious awareness and so you have these coverings to confine your experience to any particular universe. You believe it's this universe and that brain of yours is why you exist as a conscious being, lol it's a dirty trick but it's like this for a reason so that you can experience life anew as many times as you wish.
But hen you die you're consciousness will pull away from the physical body like a suction and at that point you will know indefinitely but most people aren't aware that they don't have to wait to have experiences that transcend the body. This is what spirituality is for and why it exists.If the brain alone produced consciousness then I believe/know that it would then be impossible that a soul or our conscious being (I call observer) could travel outside the brain and see outside our material form. And I'm not talking about dreaming or anything like that, I mean more real than what you think is real when you look outside your physical eyes. In practice you can pull your consciousness back away from the mind, body or brain literally and observe from that point of view. This observation point is nothing like would you are limited to looking out of eyes or what you perceive by the brain, it's a much larger 360 degree view point and that is because the soul is formless, it's simply aware and has no extremities and likewise the same with the Creator who is omnipresent.
What it comes down to for me, is like I already said.....I'm looking at all sides of the equation and one theory is simply superior to the other and accounts for much more of what we can observe, so I'm not going to limit myself and believe something that is a misconception. Right now, there's nothing I can "prove" to you, you will have to listen and consider what I'm saying and if it makes sense to you, there's no way I can answer that question in a way that would change your mind I can only explain how consciousness operates and what the soul is at a much deeper level than the brain. As I said, the brain itself is no more than a component on a circuit board and the only real way I can get you to understand that the brain does not produce you as a conscious being is to articulate what it is and the nature of it and I compare it to energy and electricity and this is actually pretty accurate and just like both of those they can take form or enter form and they can both exit those forms, in other words they can exist independently of any form or machinery. Again, you have to have a starting point somewhere where you allow yourself to consider spiritual sources, until you begin to have your own experiences, like learning something new that makes more sense and has more knowledge and understanding. Don't forget that conscious and the nature of it are open questions in science but they are fully understood in spirituality. So there really is no need to hold onto a fractured idea that the brain creates what you actually are. I can explain how things work but at some point you will have to give the benefit of the doubt that I know what I'm saying. You don't have to accept anything of course, but this should be about getting you to consider something and then you have something to work off of
You don't have to get me to consider I've already said I look at all sides, examine all claims. I'm presenting you with an extension, or an alternative, there is no alternative you can give me or present me I'm already aware of it and reject it based on many things. Now, It's up to you whether or not you think my explanations and answers are worth looking into....or not. But I challenge you to remain open about this alternative and just consider it like I consider all sides. I've given you enough information for you to consider and I believe I've answered that question above so I'll let you reply on it. On another note we don't need to assume anything, because I can show you the science behind this, this is not some assumption it's based on observation and experience and a time tested wealth of knowledge.
The difference as I explained in the other post is that consciousness cannot be experienced away from the brain or the body if it were produced by the brain.That's pretty much commonsense, your experience would be confined to only your brain and there would be no conscious experience away from it....but human experience and as well as my own dictate that it is certainly true that consciousness is not produced by the brain OR the mind. There is no real reason for me to reject my own observations and logic when all things line up and fit together, that would be defeating the purpose of finding truth in all facets of it so there is nothing I'll present that is counter-productive.
I actually answered this when I mentioned cross referencing. It's also observation and experience, how does that NOT show the answers are correct. You seem to be under the impression this is all just an assumption and I've made it clear it is not.
Well certainly not a science experiment in a lab that is for sure, so again this is personal observation and cross-referencing which gives it strength. Spirituality is repeatable as a practice, that's because it's an actual reality that exits and can be learned from. Personally, I verify my own experiences with other sources and references and this is about the extent of what can be done with the nature of it....being "outside" or away from the physical perception so you have to follow that fact all the way down to what would apply to us and how.
This one I answered, it's commonsense. There would be no experience outside the physical brain and body, period.
Many things because it's an incredibly diverse reality/realities. People, places, things or any facts pertaining to it....all the things you would observe or could observe in the physical only spirituality must be cultivated you just can't look around with your physical eyes and expect to manifest anything. You have to awaken that part of yourself through participation, nevertheless anything within the God-worlds or multiverse can be experienced, but this would be called soul travel and you have to learn how to operate outside the body. But other than that your soul will pull back to the very first reality that is beyond this one when you leave the physical body, that universe is called the astral plane. There are multiple planes or multiverses that can be experienced depending on the individual.
It depends on what it is you want to observe or learn. There are spiritual principles that can be applied to the self, spiritual practices that you can do to help loosen the grip of your focus on squarely the physical perception. Basically you can move your attention or awareness away from your body and observe from another point of observation but the point is for you to get involved and learn from it. Since your soul has layers that cover it called subtle bodies or spirit body you are able to observe or experience through any one of those layers just like you observe through the physical layer currently.....these "layers" correlate with an existing plane or universe which exist parallel to this one. So as you leave each layer you experience with the correlating world and the first layer outside this one would be what most people pull back to which is the astral but this is only the first layer…..this is how people have spiritual experiences and why they have NDE's ect ect….because the soul can literally leave the body at any time either through death or through practice regardless of beliefs.
The Ultimate Reality is God. That is what it God means.
The Universe is defined as "the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated"
Someone who takes the universe as being The Ultimate Reality is a pantheist. I am closer to a panentheist. Even if you take the universe as God, you still believe in God.
As far as me making claims of God being a creator or tgat there is a reality beyond what we observe, I don't see these as controversial. In fact, I find it puzzling that you would find this odd considering that things can be observed coming into being. There is clearly a reality beyond what we observe, as there are things we are not observing that exist.
Maybe you have a superstitious conception about what these things mean, because they very naturally come from what Ultimate Reality means.
Much like definitions for God, how you define and apply those terms (not infinite, the other two) I think determines whether such logically exists.
