The Problem with Atheists

Author: 3RU7AL

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Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
Merriam-Webster says,

Definition of leprechaun 

- a mischievous elf of Irish folklore usually believed to reveal the hiding place of treasure if caught

Definition of unicorn 

- usually white animal generally depicted with the body and head of a horse with long flowing mane and tail and a single often spiraled horn in the middle of the forehead


Notice that Dictionaries are reference books and have no authority whatsoever other then defining words.
EtrnlVw
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@3RU7AL
That sounds like it might be almost, but perhaps not quite a strawman.

Let's see if Goldtop agrees with your paraphrasing of his ideological position.

Not a straw man at all actually....That's pretty much it brother, I doubt he will stray outside it. 
Goldtop
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@EtrnlVw
The brain is nothing more than a conductor and restrictor to the flow of consciousness, it does not create it. I can use a an electrical meter/tester to detect electrical current but that has nothing to do with the electrical source, where the current comes from only the current form and flow. I can monitor all forms of electrical surge in any given object or machinery, none of which is produced by the object or machinery, same thing with conscious activity. 
That's merely another one of your fantasies that has nothing to do with reality, facts or evidence.

Sorry, but your electrical example has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. If that had any validity, then we should be able to monitor this consciousness you claim is floating around in the universe.

Where is your evidence? Of course, as usual, you have none.



Goldtop
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@EtrnlVw
Not a straw man at all actually

Strawman being another term you don't understand. Yes, that's exactly what you offered, a Strawman.
Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
I can observe animals making decisions.

That's yet another claim you need to support.
3RU7AL
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@Goldtop
Notice that Dictionaries are reference books and have no authority whatsoever other then defining words.
I wholeheartedly agree that dictionaries are not perfectly and absolutely authoritative.

However, they are intended to represent a consensus, which would be somewhat more authoritative than a unique, ad-hoc definition.

Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
Dictionaries are reference books to look up the definition of words. That's it.
3RU7AL
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@Goldtop
I can observe animals making decisions.

That's yet another claim you need to support. 
For example, empirically, one could observe two individuals calling the same dog by name.

The dog would then make a decision as to which request to honor first.

This is an uncoerced choice that the dog is able to easily make.

Do you believe this is evidence in support of the idea that dogs have free will?

Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
For example, empirically, one could observe two individuals calling the same dog by name.

The dog would then make a decision as to which request to honor first.

That is one of the silliest things I've read today. You're saying the dog made a conscious decision, that it actually thought about it. Hilarious.
3RU7AL
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@disgusted
Will you supply proof that MANY atheists believe these things? Will you define many?
This is a personal observation.

I would be interested to know if your experience is somewhat different than mine.

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@Outplayz
Agree with you on free will and infinity.

1} objectively harvest information { occupied space bits/quanta } and metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/conceptual bits
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@Outplayz
OutP, sorry I clicked incorrect reply box. I was addressing Brjual.

However, two kinds of infinity do exist;

1} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts of infinite, this that or other ex infinite set of numbers,

2} existence of macro-infinite, non-occupied space that embraces.surrounds our finite occupied space Universe.

The latter #2 of course follows a rational, logical common sense presumption, that, we live in a finite ---ergo integral--- occupied space Universe.

All is predetermined because of cause and effect i.e. there exists no true random-ness or chaos etc except in humans metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Heisenbergs uncertainty exists only because we have not yet quantised or quantified gravity ( ) and dark energy )(, nor could any creature of Universe ever map such huge patterned set of correlations.

Brujal is correct on #1 and #3.  


3RU7AL
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@SkepticalOne
Atheists ostensibly reject superstitious fairy-tales and religious beliefs because they are logically impossible/unknowable and unverifiable and unfalsifiable and categorically outside the scope of scientific exploration.
I do consider this statement to be false. Atheists don't always reject the supernatural. Some believe in the supernatural..just not gods. Secondly, they don't always reject the supernatural because of their understanding of science. They might object on logical grounds and physical evidence is unimportant. Lastly, they don't always "reject" these things. They may simply not believe. Any conclusion drawn from this premise is dubious.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.  This is a personal observation.  In my experience, the atheists that I've met, or read about, or seen presentations of, generally reject god(s) and other nonsense because they are logically impossible...etcetera.

We do seem to agree on the part where you say "They might object on logical grounds and physical evidence is unimportant." as well as the "they don't always reject these things.  They may simply not believe."

Free will: As an atheist, I don't believe in it. If another consciousness were to be dropped into my body and live my life from start to finish I've no reason to think they would choose different paths and every reason to think the experiences of my life would inform their decisions and mould their personality to be exactly like mine. I believe Sam Harris rejects free will as well (and I probably was influenced by his argument). 
This would seem to be a rational position and I would tend to agree with you.

Objective reality: I'm not sure I understand this term as you do. It seems we have a reality that we share. I see no reason to doubt this. 
I get this type of response often from reasonable people and I tend to point to Karl Popper and Immanuel Kant.

Kant's noumena is the perfect example of a truly objective reality.  Kant points out that no matter how much we intuitively believe we can infer the nature of nourmena from phenomena, any such inference is an astronomical epistemological leap of faith.

I would be more than happy to explain/explore this further if you are so inclined.

Infinity: I don't understand your objection here. "Infinity" is not an actual size or number, but a a place marker for something bigger than we can measure, understand, or imagine. I do believe such things exist. I don't know that infinity can be understood in a strictly literal sense though (eg.  A literal infinite universe makes no sense to me)
People often use the term infinity in illogical ways.  For instance, they might say "we have infinite choices" or "we have infinite potential" or "the universe is infinite space" or "mathematical integers are infinite".

However, I will not belabor the point since I believe we agree that everything is technically finite.  I also have a logical proof of this if you're interested.
mustardness
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@3RU7AL
However, I will not belabor the point since I believe we agree that everything is technically finite.  I also have a logical proof of this if you're interested.

Metaphsycial-2, macro-infinite on-occupied space and finite  occupied space Universe.

Until you can make the distinction you are in denial of two primary aspects of actual space. Actual meaning  as referenced to any actual 2D area and 3D volumetric space, that, are not a metaphysical-1, concept of space.

So we have three primary kinds of space, of which you are in denial of two of them.

This is where you fall short of rational logical common sense pathways of thoughts regarding space.




Outplayz
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@3RU7AL
People often use the term infinity in illogical ways.  For instance, they might say "we have infinite choices" or "we have infinite potential" or "the universe is infinite space" or "mathematical integers are infinite".

However, I will not belabor the point since I believe we agree that everything is technically finite.  I also have a logical proof of this if you're interested.
I'm interested. I don't see how in the most literal sense, space isn't infinite i.e. doesn't have any boundaries.  
3RU7AL
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@Goldtop
Now we seem to be getting somewhere.

I can observe animals making decisions.

Do you believe that animals also have free will?
This is what I said.

For example, empirically, one could observe two individuals calling the same dog by name.

The dog would then make a decision as to which request to honor first.

That is one of the silliest things I've read today. You're saying the dog made a conscious decision, that it actually thought about it. Hilarious.
This is what you said.

You have moved the goal posts from "make a decision" to "make a conscious decision", which is fine.  I just want to be clear that when you asked me to kick the ball, so to speak, the goal was in one place and then you quickly moved it outside the stadium.

Here's the problem with attempting to distinguish "make a decision" from "make a conscious decision" - only you can observe your internal thoughts and feelings.

Your internal thoughts and feelings are clearly outside the scope of empirical evidence.  You cannot smell, taste, hear, see or touch your internal thoughts and feelings.

You cannot smell, taste, hear, see or touch the internal thoughts of others.

It is a fundamental attribution error to infer that other people or beings have similar internal thoughts and feelings.

This is what you might call an epistemological limit.

If you don't believe animals have free will, I'm willing to accept that premise.  I only ask because I've had previous conversations on this topic where my interlocutor actually did believe that animals have free will.  We can skip this part about animals entirely if that is indeed your position.
Mopac
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@3RU7AL
As you can plainly see, God with a capital "G" in English means The Supreme or Ultimate Reality.


Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
My position has not changed, I'm still waiting for you to support your assertions.

Just admit you can't and we'll move on.
Goldtop
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@Mopac
Your a master of childish semantics and a terrible debater.
3RU7AL
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@Outplayz
People often use the term infinity in illogical ways.  For instance, they might say "we have infinite choices" or "we have infinite potential" or "the universe is infinite space" or "mathematical integers are infinite".

However, I will not belabor the point since I believe we agree that everything is technically finite.  I also have a logical proof of this if you're interested.
I'm interested. I don't see how in the most literal sense, space isn't infinite i.e. doesn't have any boundaries.  
In simple terms, the fact that you don't believe you have observed a boundary does not mean there is no boundary.

The question of infinity might be considered beyond our epistemological limits.

However, we can also use logic, which informs us that anything truly and absolutely infinite could have no conceivable boundary.

If such a thing actually existed, it would instantly obliterate all finite existence.

A truly infinite and unlimited item would obliterate all dimensions and all times and all space and all existence.

A truly infinite item could not be divided into parts because as soon as you defined a part, the whole would then have a boundary.

And there can be no boundary.

For example, if "space" was truly and absolutely infinite, there could be no planets or stars.

Planets and stars are technically the boundary of space.

Please let me know your questions and/or critiques.
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Not an argument.



3RU7AL
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@Goldtop
Here's the problem with attempting to distinguish "make a decision" from "make a conscious decision" - only you can observe your internal thoughts and feelings.

Your internal thoughts and feelings are clearly outside the scope of empirical evidence.  You cannot smell, taste, hear, see or touch your internal thoughts and feelings.

You cannot smell, taste, hear, see or touch the internal thoughts of others.

It is a fundamental attribution error to infer that other people or beings have similar internal thoughts and feelings.

This is what you might call an epistemological limit.

If you don't believe animals have free will, I'm willing to accept that premise.  I only ask because I've had previous conversations on this topic where my interlocutor actually did believe that animals have free will.  We can skip this part about animals entirely if that is indeed your position.

I have met your demands to the best of my ability.

Please try rephrasing your question or offer some examples of what you are looking for.

Your standard of empirical evidence does not apply to free will at all.  It can't apply because free will cannot be measured empirically.
Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
I have met your demands to the best of my ability.

Then clearly, you haven't the ability to support your claims. Looks like you're done here.
Outplayz
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@3RU7AL
Why would it obliterate finite existence? Are you talking about the infinite regress problem? 

For example, if "space" was truly and absolutely infinite, there could be no planets or stars.

Planets and stars are technically the boundary of space.
When a planet moves or dies, what is left over... space. There will always be space. I can see how you are saying they are boundaries to space and one can look at it as its boundary but there is always space without the planet or star there. As they are physically manifest, they are occupying space so you can call them boundaries... but all they are doing is, occupying space. One day they will die and leave more space. Interestingly, some stars that die create another form of space, i.e. black holes, but it's still space.  
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@Mopac
As you can plainly see, God with a capital "G" in English means The Supreme or Ultimate Reality.
Yes, however that is not the only definition.  The other definitions are also commonly understood and there is no way of knowing which one a person is using unless they explain themselves.

I personally have never encountered anyone using that particular definition until today.

Thank you for your civility.
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@Goldtop
I have met your demands to the best of my ability.

Then clearly, you haven't the ability to support your claims. Looks like you're done here.
You are under no obligation to continue any type of discussion.

I personally welcome valid objections and logical critique.

I also understand that reasonable people can often disagree on fundamental topics.

However, what I am currently puzzled by is a person who says the only believe in empirical evidence and then tries to assert that consciousness is somehow evidence of free will.

This makes zero sense.

Neither consciousness nor free will is measurable empirically. 
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@Outplayz
Why would it obliterate finite existence? Are you talking about the infinite regress problem? 

For example, if "space" was truly and absolutely infinite, there could be no planets or stars.

Planets and stars are technically the boundary of space.
When a planet moves or dies, what is left over... space. There will always be space. I can see how you are saying they are boundaries to space and one can look at it as its boundary but there is always space without the planet or star there. As they are physically manifest, they are occupying space so you can call them boundaries... but all they are doing is, occupying space. One day they will die and leave more space. Interestingly, some stars that die create another form of space, i.e. black holes, but it's still space.  
As I understand the infinite regress problem, this applies specifically to inductive reasoning and is also known as the inductive reasoning problem, addressed by Popper and Hume.

Space as we tend to use the term is clearly non-infinite.  It might be really really big, and cosmologists can estimate the approximate size and age of the observable universe based on scientific observation.

If you are simply trying to say that space itself, beyond our ability to observe, just continues on and on "forever" this is rampant speculation.

The evidence we currently have strongly suggests that space and time are the same thing and they were once very very small and now they are getting larger and larger and we are approximately 50% of the way through the cycle, incidentally this makes a lot of sense because the 50% mark is the peak of the complexity curve.

From our best calculations all space and time will come to a screeching halt at the predicted heat death of the cosmos.

I can see no reason to believe and no evidence to support the idea that either space and/or time is technically "endless".

Although you could argue that space and time are practically endless, relative to our expected human lifespans, memory, and perception.

You can believe the universe is "infinite" if you like, but I'd be curious about why you would think that and what possible utility you believe that belief might grant.
Outplayz
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@3RU7AL
The evidence we currently have strongly suggests that space and time are the same thing and they were once very very small and now they are getting larger and larger and we are approximately 50% of the way through the cycle, incidentally this makes a lot of sense because the 50% mark is the peak of the complexity curve.
All we know is "our" universe. This evidence is trying to make sense of the universe we know. We don't know how far it goes or if there is anything beyond it or before it. So, we are stuck in only speculating on what we can tell. And, just bc things look as though what they are doesn't mean we are remotely right about it in a bigger picture. All we know is that a star could have exploded in another universe, created a black hole, and we are in that black hole. Star explode = big bang; the black holes gravity = our universes expansion. Who knows, it can be anything, but i am pretty sure or i should say instead, i'm confident that our universe wasn't the start of space and wasn't the start of time in the bigger sense of things. I understand when we say the start of "our" space-time... but that is all we can know therefore are stuck with saying that. I'm okay with that, but it answers very little in my opinion and ignores the grandness of reality.  

From our best calculations all space and time will come to a screeching halt at the predicted heat death of the cosmos.
No. "Our" universe will come to a halt. They have no idea what will happen to space and time. 

You can believe the universe is "infinite" if you like, but I'd be curious about why you would think that and what possible utility you believe that belief might grant.
It makes more sense to me than a finite route. In part bc i can also answer the infinite regress problem from my metaphysical belief's point of view. Bc metaphysically i also believe intelligence/consciousness is infinite and that answers why there is no infinite regress problem plus other things about life. I can go over it if you're interested. But, even if i put aside my metaphysical beliefs, logically it make more sense. If there is a boundary... what does the boundary look like? How long does the boundary go for? What is it made of if anything? Then how long does that go for? But if it goes on forever and finite events happen within it... then we can worry about points within it and not that it hits a "wall."   
Goldtop
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@3RU7AL
However, what I am currently puzzled by is a person who says the only believe in empirical evidence and then tries to assert that consciousness is somehow evidence of free will.

This makes zero sense.

If you can't support your assertions, fill the others mouths with your words. Poor tactic.
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@3RU7AL
Yes, there is a difference between "God" and "god".

Not all languages have this problem. As an example, in Arabic the word for God is Allah, and the word for god is illah. This makes matters confusing for English speakers as God and god have the same pronunciation, and using "god" at the beginning of a written sentence makes it look like God.

So capital "G" God means "Ultimate Reality" or "Supreme Being" depending on the dictionary. They both mean the same thing. 

It is not surprising that you have never heard this definition because the vast majority of people, theist, atheist, or otherwise has a superstitious conception of God. 

So really, denying God is not a reasonable position. Instead it is more fruitful to debate about what God is, what God isn't, the nature of God, etc. 

Because when someone is an atheist towards this particular God, they are denying truth and reality. I don't really believe that most atheists are aware of this, but that is actually what their position means. I think it would also be interesting to note that Christians were called atheists back in ancient Rome, an identity that most people today would consider to be ludicrous to attach to a Christian.

The Monotheist God is The Ultimate Reality. This is true in certain sects of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc. The concept is even present in Buddhism, Taoism, and just about any tradition on the planet.

And though I myself identify as a Christian and have my theological education in that tradition, I must admit this is a universal concept.

So that is your good news for the day. The Ultimate Reality is God. That is something that transcends culture, tradition, conception, everything.


It Is What It Is.