What favor did President Trump request of Ukraine President Zekensky?

Author: fauxlaw

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dustryder
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@ILikePie5
If there’s not enough evidence, a person cannot be convicted, hence he’s innocent. Any logical person would say he’s innocent.
1. I do believe that Trump cannot be convicted by virtue of being a sitting president anyway
2. The correct term would be "not guilty" rather than "innocent"
3. We don't know if there is enough evidence

The not exonerated talking point is stupid and only serves as a base for more investigation in the hopes they get Trump the next time.
The not exonerated talking point is important because it highlights that contrary to what he espouses, he's done some pretty shifty things that sit in a grey area within the law that he cannot be exonerated on. More importantly, in the context of this discussion, the point is not that Trump is guilty or not guilty of anything, it's that Mueller *did* find crimes contrary to what ethang5 claims.
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@dustryder
it's that Mueller *did* find crimes contrary to what ethang5 claims.

Why didn’t he convict then 🤔
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@ILikePie5
Meuller's stance is that the government investigators are so fucked up that they can't draw any conclusions other than "no collusion"

Coup failed. Move on.


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Here is the sad truth....  

The FBI had an empty board on the wall, Trump announces his run for presidency.  All of the sudden, at the top of that board was a picture of Trump in a big red circle, treated just like any mobster that they know is in charge of illegal dealings, gangs, and organized crime. 

Below that is different pictures of people in his campaign in pecking order as well as his lawyers, his friends, his proposed nominees, as well as any past correspondence these people may have had with Russia, however tiniest the relationship doesn't matter.  They dug, and dug, and dug, and dug, until what they thought was something concrete, but it wasn't... then they had to lie in order to try and get more evidence, falsifying reports, doctoring dates, omitting verified pertinent information, skipping the normal process, and all the while crossing out people that they did get by confusing them and interrogating them for hours upon hours, with no evidence of anything.  

Exactly what they do on TV to mobsters that they know are making the calls and having others perform the dirty work, although, there was no dirty work, just some people who did not want Trump to be president.

Now, hopefully, it will come back and bite them all in the ass.  This was a disgrace, I don't care of you like Trump or hate him, you should understand that this, from the beginning, there was a target placed on his back.  And some people hate him so much, they are fine with that, and are willing to do what it takes to get him out of office, even do what they were hired to put people away for doing.
fauxlaw
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@dustryder
he's done some pretty shifty things that sit in a grey area within the law that he cannot be exonerated on.
<br>
If, by the law, there is "gray area," then you'e going to have to cite what you're talking about, specifically. The law, my friend, appears to you to have "gray area" because the law is pretty black regarding what is not legal, leaving plenty of white that is. If you want to call some white gray, that is your privilege, but don't expect the court to necessarily agree. Loopholes are what satisfies the public in their ignorance of the law as that which should be closed, made black, but currently is not. Since not everyone who identifies loopholes agrees by what shade of back to fill them [i.e. by definition of severity in terms of negative effect on the public and commensurate punishment], violà, the acceptable to the public, but legally unsupportable gray.
Greyparrot
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@fauxlaw
Mueller confirmed the Russian Collusion was a hoax.
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@dustryder
...about half of them still agree with the interpretation that Trump did something wrong.
Yet nothing was done? Very few of them believe Trump should have been impeached, even the ones who agreed his behavior was not the best.

...the majority of the American populace agree that Trump did something wrong.
The majority of the American populace agree that Trump should not have been impeached. Playing with words will not help you win.

The reality is the Trump did something wrong, judging by your quality of argument.
The reality is that Trump did nothing wrong, judging by reality itself. Reality matters Clem.

Trump was impeached
By democrats. A single party. And that foolishness was thrown out by the Senate.

2. Mueller did find crimes
No crimes of Trump.

3. The senate does not represent the majority of the country
Yes they do. Every part of the country has a Senator. And they are more representative than a single party.

4. The chambers of congress follow their own agenda. While this agenda is often lead by their constituents desires, quite often it is not.
Like when Democratic partisan hacks tried to engineer a single party coup.

Correct. But they are based upon evidence
If you had evidence, you wouldn't need inference to convict, you'd use the evidence.

I vaguely recall that you bash other politicians from time to time?
Lol! My God, I'm glad you aren't a judge.

Tell where me in the books of law does it state that a person must make a sworn tape confession in order to be convicted.
Please stop being dense. The law says people will be convicted on a preponderance of evidence, not on bias and inference.

...a thumbprint found in the scene of the crime belonging to the thief is the evidence. The conclusion that the thief must've been at the scene of the crime is the inference.
You have no thumbprints. You only have baseless inference.

So yes, murderers are convicted upon inferences.
In China, Cuba, and North Korea sure. Not in America since 1957.

For example, a large amount of Americans just aren't well informed enough.
Yes. Deplorables. I heard of them.

That said, as previously mentioned, you're actually in a minority in this matter, and your views are incredibly extreme despite having access to all the facts of the matter. Hence you are biased.
I guess my views would seem extreme to a far left liberal. But sorry, I am not in the minority. You need to watch more varied news outlets.

And reality agrees with me, that's why Meuller found no crimes of Trump. And the Senate quashed the fake single party impeachment, and why Trump will be reelected in November.

"..., it also does not exonerate him" - Mueller Report, "Conclusion," Vol. 2, pg 182
An unindicted person needs no exoneration.

You will keep on pretending your views are mainstream, and that your bias is evidence, and that the country sees all these "crimes" but just does nothing about it. Reality will go right on despite your TDS.
dustryder
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@fauxlaw
Yes, Mueller ended with 30+ indictments, and some convictions, but the target of the Mueller investigation was Trump, and not a single indictment names anyone wearing the Trump name. Other targets do not count as none had a farthing of relation to the subject of a favor requested by Trump on 7/25 to President Zelensky. You cannot broaden the scope of this string just to justify your opinion. As its instigator, I declare your entire commentary in this post as superfluous. Stay on point. I'll allow you discussion of Mueller as relevant, because the president mentioned Mueller in the 7/25 conversation, but your conclusion about the Report is demonstrably wrong. Mueller did mention several areas of concern, but defined none of them as indictable crimes, and he did not indict on their suggestion.
To be accurate, the title of the report is "report on the investigation into russian interference in the 2016 investigation". As it's title suggests, the report is not exclusively about trump and admirably details the ways and methods in which russia interfered in the 2016 election.

As has been established, no crimes by the president are indictable by the standing OLC opinion and hence by definition, no Trump crimes detailed in the Mueller report are indictable by definition and you are demonstrably wrong.

Finally, as participant, I have no obligation to stay on point as conversations evolve. However, do note that I am not the one who is shifting topics, so I would advise that if you wish to maintain a singular topic, you should admonish the one who's actually instigating the straying.
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@ILikePie5
Why didn’t he convict then

Standing OLC opinion and practice dictates that presidents may not be indicted.
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@fauxlaw
is a legal and syntactic faux pas by virtue of the previous claim of a non-crime. The latter statement is, as is your argument, superfluous by non sequitur. By concluding there is no crime, it does not follow that there is no exoneration. What precedes, moreover, is that Mueller found himself at the end of a two-year, $30M-plus investigation of having to inflate a bozone-filled wish balloon of what might have been. Sorry.
I'm sorry, but your statements boils down to opinionated puffery. It is quite clear that per definition, exoneration is not necessarily predicated by crime.
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@fauxlaw
If, by the law, there is "gray area," then you'e going to have to cite what you're talking about, specifically. The law, my friend, appears to you to have "gray area" because the law is pretty black regarding what is not legal, leaving plenty of white that is. If you want to call some white gray, that is your privilege, but don't expect the court to necessarily agree. Loopholes are what satisfies the public in their ignorance of the law as that which should be closed, made black, but currently is not. Since not everyone who identifies loopholes agrees by what shade of back to fill them [i.e. by definition of severity in terms of negative effect on the public and commensurate punishment], violà, the acceptable to the public, but legally unsupportable gray.
Sure, so OLC opinions and practice are not laws in and of themselves. In which case is adherance of such things consistent with current law?
And as a consequence, how do the actions detailed in the report fit in with the law when they are both crimes and unactionable?
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@dustryder
...the majority of the American populace agree that Trump did something wrong.
<br>
Have a care to understand who your "majority of Americans" really are. Political polls almost always make registered voters their target audience for polling. Who are registered voters? In 2016, there were 250M of them. Only 51%, 127M, of them actually voted, split between Trump and Hillary. Meaning 123M of them never bothered to vote, having no will to make their voice, and opinion, heard. They are included in your "majority." In fact those 123M ARE your majority; people who have no valid opinion. You trust them? You want likely voters, not just registered, but you won't know who they are for another 6 months, minimum.

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@dustryder
Standing OLC opinion and practice dictates that presidents may not be indicted.

He has the power to go to Congress and ask for impeachment right? Cause that’s what happened in the case of Special Counsel Ken Starr. Why didn’t he do that? Oh wait, he didn’t have enough evidence and therefore could convict.
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@dustryder
per definition, exoneration is not necessarily predicated by crime.
I agree with that statement, however, it is a good start. Moreover, an exoneration statement is not legally, nor syntacticly a necessary follow-up statement to the declaration that there was no crime. As said, it is a non sequitur. Therefore, Mueller's exoneration statement is the opinionated statement, not mine. Opinionated, because Mueller's entire investigation of Trump was backassward. One initiates a criminal investigation by first identifying that a crime absolutely was committed, and then begin a pursuit for suspects. In this case, Trump was assumed to have committed a crime, but no one could pinpoint what, exactly, it was. It was an investigation for a crime that Mueller admitted, ultimately, and to his shame [the Congressional testimony in July was evidence of that], was not found.
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@dustryder
how do the actions detailed in the report fit in with the law when they are both crimes and unactionable?
They [the actions] fit with the law because, though you claim otherwise [your opinion], they are not both crimes and unactionable. That's the point of Mueller's argument. They were not crimes, and therefore were not actionable. And this is why I maintain that adding the exoneration statement was a non sequitur. If the actions were not, in the end, actionable by indictment, from what is it necessary to be exonerated? Moral consideration, perhaps, but by what and whose moral standard? And can Trump be declared party to it by his own acceptance? There is no more a single moral standard in this country than there is a single ideal climate.
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@fauxlaw
Have a care to understand who your "majority of Americans" really are. Political polls almost always make registered voters their target audience for polling. Who are registered voters? In 2016, there were 250M of them. Only 51%, 127M, of them actually voted, split between Trump and Hillary. Meaning 123M of them never bothered to vote, having no will to make their voice, and opinion, heard. They are included in your "majority."
The poll I checked was pew. Judging by their methodology, they use random digit sampling split between landlines and cellphones in some proportion

In fact those 123M ARE your majority; people who have no valid opinion. You trust them? You want likely voters, not just registered, but you won't know who they are for another 6 months, minimum.

Even assuming for your assumed poll methodology, this is a baseless assumption.
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@ILikePie5
He has the power to go to Congress and ask for impeachment right? Cause that’s what happened in the case of Special Counsel Ken Starr. Why didn’t he do that? Oh wait, he didn’t have enough evidence and therefore could convict.
<br>
I believe he left the decision for congress. In general, obstruction of justice without the criminal nexus is not a good case for impeachment. However there is a stark difference between the existence of crimes and sufficiency of evidence for those crimes, and the overall crimes being sufficient for an impeachment. In this case, while there appears to have been sufficient evidence for crime, the crime itself was not determined to meet the bar for impeachment
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@dustryder
Even assuming for your assumed poll methodology, this is a baseless assumption.
I happen to be a certified Six Sigma Black Belt. Look it up. In this arena of statistics, I have exceeding proof of capable knowledge, so your opinions fail against my steel wall. I don't care who operated the poll. I stated the facts of sub-standard political polling. The flaws of the typical political poll are:
1. Lack of a sufficient polling sample size. Hint, it's not a large number, but most polls, including yours, fall short of that number.
2. Lack of the correct sample group [registered v. likely voters in your example].
3. Lack of equal sub-groups within the sample.
4. Lack of a sufficiently low MOE to establish statistical accuracy within a 95% confidence level.
5. Too many questions [10 is the suggested limit. 40 is the typical minimum political poll number of questions]
6. Some questions are biased, leading to an expected answer to meet an agenda.

fauxlaw
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@dustryder
I believe he left the decision for congress.
"He," being Mueller. Why would Mueller, a professional prosecutor, and, then, a contract employee of DOJ, consider leaving a case for Congress to solve? He had the power of indictment for a criminal offense, and decided he did not have the evidence to do so, by his statements in his Report that I have already cited. Congress, in the guise of the House, has the "Sole power" to impeach, which, itself, is merely a political act. Note that Hamilton, in Federalist Paper #65, stated impeachment and conviction were merely political, not judicial acts. And, note that the result of impeachment and conviction is merely removal from office. Not to mention that only DOJ policy, and not the Constitution, says that a sitting president cannot be indicted. I refer you to Article I, section 3, clause 7, taking into consideration in that clause of the existence of the word "nevertheless." Know the meaning of that word as it is applied in its sentence. Knowing its etymology may be necessary to consult, but it is there, in 18th century syntax, and cannot be arbitrarily ignored, as A.G. John Mitchell did in creating the policy while A.G. for Nixon, but only after Watergate began to close in. Mitchell went to jail for his hijinks, so I don't consider Mitchell a qualified expert on the law sufficient to follow it.
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@fauxlaw
Some questions are biased, leading to an expected answer to meet an agenda.
 This is a serious understatement. You can get wildly different results depending on how the question is worded. I read an article written by a person working for a polling company, and what they would do is focus-test a question worded in many different ways and then they would cherry-pick the carefully worded question that got the results they were looking for.

Politicians have their own internal polling they never show the media that represents the voters. That's never information available for mass mob consumption.
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@fauxlaw
Remember, just like the MSM, pollsters are corporate-owned and motivated solely by profit, and don't give a flying fuck about the voters.
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@ethang5
Yet nothing was done? Very few of them believe Trump should have been impeached, even the ones who agreed his behavior was not the best.
To be clear, if about half of the senate were willing to have Trump removed, I'm quite sure at the very least that half of the senate agree that Trump should've been impeached.

The majority of the American populace agree that Trump should not have been impeached. Playing with words will not help you win.
No wordplay here. The discussion was on whether Trump had done something wrong. You're the one trying to expand the argument.

The reality is that Trump did nothing wrong, judging by reality itself. Reality matters Clem.
Well the reality is that Trump did something wrong. Hence the impeachment.

By democrats. A single party. And that foolishness was thrown out by the Senate.
You mean the duly elected house?

No crimes of Trump.
He did find crimes of Trump.

Yes they do. Every part of the country has a Senator. And they are more representative than a single party.
The senate members that voted to acquit represent > 50 of the countries people. Hence they do not represent the majority.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't need inference to convict, you'd use the evidence.
Inferences implicitly use evidence. So evidence is used. 

Please stop being dense. The law says people will be convicted on a preponderance of evidence, not on bias and inference.
Since your denial of inference is a denial of evidence, your standard of evidence excludes evidence and requires a standard nothing short of sworn confession.

You have no thumbprints. You only have baseless inference.
The inferences are based upon the thumbprints.

In China, Cuba, and North Korea sure. Not in America since 1957.
And America and in every other first world nation.

Yes. Deplorables. I heard of them.
Personally I'd just call them the uninformed. But whatever floats your boat

I guess my views would seem extreme to a far left liberal. But sorry, I am not in the minority. You need to watch more varied news outlets.
Oh wonders of wonders. You both concede that you are in the minority, but also reject that you are in the minority. It's a wonder that you're able to think at all given the amount of spinning your head does.

And reality agrees with me, that's why Meuller found no crimes of Trump. And the Senate quashed the fake single party impeachment, and why Trump will be reelected in November.
Only in your delusions

An unindicted person needs no exoneration.
An exoneration is not predicated on an indictment. You are factually wrong.
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@Greyparrot
All true, and nothing but. Well done.
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@Greyparrot
Well, except for the flying bit, I agree. Nevertheless, I understand the fly point, I just don't use the language. Not complaining, mind you. Far be it from me to censor. That's not 1A comportment.
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@dustryder
I'm quite sure at the very least that half of the senate agree that Trump should've been impeached.

You may be sure, but, apparently, more than half of the Senate does not agree with you, unless you believe more than half of the Senate violated their oath. Prove that. As you do not wear their knickers, I'll submit you cannot.


You're the one trying to expand the argument.
Oh. And you Senate accusation above is not expansion? 

The inferences are based upon the thumbprints.

If that were true, you'd have more than inferences. But, if you want to argue that inferences are sufficient to convict, where's the conviction? You keep blowing bozone into your wish balloon, someday it's going to take flight. Bon voyage.
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@fauxlaw
I agree with that statement, however, it is a good start. Moreover, an exoneration statement is not legally, nor syntacticly a necessary follow-up statement to the declaration that there was no crime. As said, it is a non sequitur.
But there was no declaration that there was no crime. Your logic is flawed from the onset. A non-conclusion that the President has committed a crime does not exclude the existence of the crime and hence he is not exonerated affairs related to those crimes.

Therefore, Mueller's exoneration statement is the opinionated statement, not mine. Opinionated, because Mueller's entire investigation of Trump was backassward. One initiates a criminal investigation by first identifying that a crime absolutely was committed, and then begin a pursuit for suspects. In this case, Trump was assumed to have committed a crime, but no one could pinpoint what, exactly, it was. It was an investigation for a crime that Mueller admitted, ultimately, and to his shame [the Congressional testimony in July was evidence of that], was not found.
In this case, Mueller's investigation was focused on Russian interference in which the crime was absolutely committed.


dustryder
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@fauxlaw
They [the actions] fit with the law because, though you claim otherwise [your opinion], they are not both crimes and unactionable. That's the point of Mueller's argument. They were not crimes, and therefore were not actionable.
In this case they were crimes and unactionable in the case of this president.

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@fauxlaw
I happen to be a certified Six Sigma Black Belt. Look it up. In this arena of statistics, I have exceeding proof of capable knowledge, so your opinions fail against my steel wall. I don't care who operated the poll. I stated the facts of sub-standard political polling. The flaws of the typical political poll are:
1. Lack of a sufficient polling sample size. Hint, it's not a large number, but most polls, including yours, fall short of that number.
2. Lack of the correct sample group [registered v. likely voters in your example].
3. Lack of equal sub-groups within the sample.
4. Lack of a sufficiently low MOE to establish statistical accuracy within a 95% confidence level.
5. Too many questions [10 is the suggested limit. 40 is the typical minimum political poll number of questions]
6. Some questions are biased, leading to an expected answer to meet an agenda.
By all means, I would be delighted if you would analyse the flaws in this poll and explain why the results should be scrutinized



I note that we may already discard your criteria for polling sample size

dustryder
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@fauxlaw
"He," being Mueller. Why would Mueller, a professional prosecutor, and, then, a contract employee of DOJ, consider leaving a case for Congress to solve?
He did not leave a case for Congress to solve. Congress has the sole power of impeachment, and deciding what is impeachable is their concern.

He had the power of indictment for a criminal offense, and decided he did not have the evidence to do so, by his statements in his Report that I have already cited.
I reject the notion that he did not have the evidence to do so. This is pure conjecture. As previously cited, regardless whether he had the evidence to do so, he could not.


dustryder
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@fauxlaw
You may be sure, but, apparently, more than half of the Senate does not agree with you, unless you believe more than half of the Senate violated their oath. Prove that. As you do not wear their knickers, I'll submit you cannot.
Again, when you intrude into other conversations, some substance is lost. Ethang5's assertion that very few of the senate agree with me is patently false when slightly less than half were willing to vote to remove.

Oh. And you Senate accusation above is not expansion? 
No. We're still discussing who thought Trump's actions were inappropriate. The senate's thoughts are relevant, especially when he is insisting than very few of the senate thought that the actions were inappropriate.

If that were true, you'd have more than inferences.
Inferences and the implied underlying evidence behind the inferences are generally sufficient I should think. After all, it does imply the employment of all underlying evidences.

But, if you want to argue that inferences are sufficient to convict, where's the conviction? You keep blowing bozone into your wish balloon, someday it's going to take flight. Bon voyage.
This topic was on a more general nature of convictions. As you should be well aware by now, the president cannot be convicted regardless of whatever inferences are drawn. Of course, that does not mean inferences cannot be drawn to conclude that he did something wrong.