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@ATroubledMan
Has that ever happened?
Why has your God allowed Coronavirus to emerge and spread?
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@RoderickSpode
Has that ever happened?
Not yet, thankfully.
On the flip-side, if you asked me if I was extorting money from people, then using it to build a place where I could get those people to visit once a week to create a vicious cycle of filling their heads with lies and extorting more money, then no, I would never do such a thing because that would be highly immoral and unethical.
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@Stephen
Why did he even bother to create it in the first place. Come to that, why did god create anything at all, ever, in the first place!
You are agreeing with me that God is fundamentally amoral or upon closer inspection extravagently immoral while also extravagently merciful (a contradiction that leads to people confusing God for being 'good'). God doesn't have emotions or empathy, we are toys to it/him/her. That is what I wanted admitted by Theists in creating this thread but it was soon derailed and ironically the example used by one was that refugees who are trapped in Turkey deserve it as it was God saving Greece. At such a point, I discontinue conversation as it tells me all I needed to know about the hypocrisy of "good God" Theism.
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@ATroubledMan
Not yet, thankfully.On the flip-side, if you asked me if I was extorting money from people, then using it to build a place where I could get those people to visit once a week to create a vicious cycle of filling their heads with lies and extorting more money, then no, I would never do such a thing because that would be highly immoral and unethical.
I had a pretty good idea that the link to the minister confessing to lying at times would fall along the lines of white lies. But I looked at it just to make sure. And sure enough....
As far as the con-artist lying, are you familiar with Marjoe Gortner?
He was a child evangelist trained to con church members out of their money. He even did an expose documentary on how it was done. So more than likely many evangelist con-artists are atheists.
And you also of course white-lied about lying at gun point. We all know what you meant, but there's that odd chance that someone might think you're in law enforcement. And unless you carry a gun, "not yet" is not part of the equation.
But where most of us men tend to "white lie" is to give an impression that we're border-line Double-O secret agents. We don't flat out lie. But we give that impression in a subtle way.
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@RoderickSpode
Your proof of that is what?So more than likely many evangelist con-artists are atheists.
We all know what you meant
What I meant is that if I had to lie, it would be to save my life. Other than that, I have no reason to lie.
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@ATroubledMan
Your proof of that is what?
I'm sorry. I forgot to mention. Marjoe Gortner is an atheist.
I'm not by any means claiming all evangelist con-artists are atheists. It would stand for reason though, that MG is not the only one. Once he fessed up, he could no longer do his con routine. If any evangelist con-artist were to fess up, their con would be over. Do you have any reason to think otherwise?
Where I feel you were being dishonest was by trying to associate a minister admitting to (for lack of a better term) white lying with blatant con-artists. The minister admitting to lying felt strong enough about his convictions in relationship to God to confess to lying at times. Certainly not to con people out of their money.
You had 2 examples of second party accusations. And it would appear you wanted to find a minister making a self-confession of being a deceiver, with the idea of suggesting no minister can be trusted.
Am I far off?
What I meant is that if I had to lie, it would be to save my life. Other than that, I have no reason to lie.
I know. And that was basically the same point of the sel confessing minister.
His family put him up to the fraud, they were 3 generations of evangelists. Just because this guy admitted to being an atheist, doesn't mean any of them are.I'm not by any means claiming all evangelist con-artists are atheists. It would stand for reason though, that MG is not the only one. Once he fessed up, he could no longer do his con routine. If any evangelist con-artist were to fess up, their con would be over. Do you have any reason to think otherwise?
"Audiences believed Marjoe was a "miracle child" receiving sermons from God while sleeping — in reality he carefully memorised his sermons under harsh discipline.[1] His mother would suffocate him under a pillow or water faucet if he failed to perform satisfactorily (she chose these methods specifically because they left no visible marks"
The minister admitting to lying felt strong enough about his convictions in relationship to God to confess to lying at times. Certainly not to con people out of their money
What do they need collection plates for if not to take your money? Why does God need money?
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@ATroubledMan
His family put him up to the fraud, they were 3 generations of evangelists. Just because this guy admitted to being an atheist, doesn't mean any of them are."Audiences believed Marjoe was a "miracle child" receiving sermons from God while sleeping — in reality he carefully memorised his sermons under harsh discipline.[1] His mother would suffocate him under a pillow or water faucet if he failed to perform satisfactorily (she chose these methods specifically because they left no visible marks"
Like I said, if any fraudulent evangelist admitted to being an atheist, their scam is over.
And like I also said, I'm not claiming all fraudulent evangelists are atheists. We don't know unless they confess it. Right?
Now, if his parents put him up to the fraud, and he was himself was an atheist, then it's possible his parents were atheists.....(Pause before continuing the sentence. This is going to be very tough for you to admit)....right? I'm not saying they were atheists because there's no record of a confession. But there certainly is an obvious chance they were.
What do they need collection plates for if not to take your money? Why does God need money?
Why does PBS need to take our money?
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@RoderickSpode
Like I said, if any fraudulent evangelist admitted to being an atheist, their scam is over.
If they don't admit it, can they keep scamming people?
And like I also said, I'm not claiming all fraudulent evangelists are atheists. We don't know unless they confess it. Right?
Maybe they're all frauds and we'll see how many are atheists.
Now, if his parents put him up to the fraud, and he was himself was an atheist, then it's possible his parents were atheists.....(Pause before continuing the sentence. This is going to be very tough for you to admit)....right? I'm not saying they were atheists because there's no record of a confession. But there certainly is an obvious chance they were.
Can you find any other atheists that have intentionally gone out as evangelical to run scams?
If they don't admit it, can they keep scamming people?
Maybe I don't understand the question, but isn't that like asking if insurance companies can keep scamming people?
Maybe they're all frauds and we'll see how many are atheists.
Maybe I don't understand the statement, but do you mean like on Judgment Day?????
Can you find any other atheists that have intentionally gone out as evangelical to run scams?
I went to church with one. A child prodigy who eventually became a born again believer as I recall. Who knows how many low-profile former atheists ministers there have been?
Can I find a high profile one that you have heard of? I don't think so. As I said, if an evangelist scam artist admits to being an atheist, they're done. It's over.
Have you ever heard of Chuck Colson? He was a former political ally of Richard Nixon who was sent to prison during the Watergate incident. Shortly before being incarcerated he became a believer. When he went to prison he became a minister, and lead a number of people to Christ. One
of them was an evangelist scam artist. So there's obviously been many of them, just not high profile. In fact, Marjoe Gortner probably wouldn't be nearly as high profile as he is due to fessing up. And his motivation probably wasn't as virtuous as the Common Sense Atheism website would like you to believe. His fessing up was a stepping stone to get into the movies.
One of the problems is that atheism is now a political tag. There have been many atheists who probably never used the word atheist to describe themselves because there's no political interest involved. And there's a fine line between atheism and agnosticism. Unless you can claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God, technically you're an agnostic.
So going back to the parents of Marjoe Gortner, would you (or could you) say they may have been atheists?
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@RationalMadman
Why did he even bother to create it in the first place. Come to that, why did god create anything at all, ever, in the first place!You are agreeing with me that God is fundamentally amoral or upon closer inspection extravagently immoral
Yes, I agree
While also extravagently merciful.
Not at all. I have not seen any evidence for mercy from this psychotic megalomaniac to be honest. In fact, when his own son asked to relieved of the burden " cup" of the excruciating death by crucifixion, he totally ignored his only begotten sons plea for relief of his suffering.
“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”Luke 22:42
(a contradiction that leads to people confusing God for being 'good').
I have seen no good at all come by way of the god that the Christians adopted as their own. Which has led to all sorts of confusion for them. One minute god is a murdering psychopath for the hell of it and on the other Jesus says words to the effect that " your father loves you". You cannon get more confused than that.
God doesn't have emotions or empathy, we are toys to it/him/her.
Yes, as I have stated many ,many times here, we are ten a penny to this god. And the proof of that is the story of job. God sanctioned the murder of all of jobs children , but everything was OK in the end because "the lord god gave" him some more.
That is what I wanted admitted [...............................................] about the hypocrisy of "good God" Theism.
You will never see or hear a Christian admit god can do evil or wrong. Even though god himself admits to being a Jealous god of war who created evil.They will always scratch around for anything that excuses there gods, god -awful behavior.
The only thing I can suggest is for you to keep picking apart the scriptures themselves. These scriptures, so revered by Christians are riddled with ambiguous half stories, lies and contradictions that anyone can read for themselves , but are continually defended by the Christian who hasn't bothered reading them and studying for themselves, but instead have allowed themselves to steered away from the more awkward and controversial chapters and verses and only steered towards what their elders and priests believe show their god in only a good light .
I noticed some years ago that our RE teacher only ever spoke of Jesus and the New Testament and now I know why. These theist cannot discuss the bible without preaching the bible. If you disagree with them they will accuse you of "not wanting to know the truth" among many other false accusations.
If God really did punish us for our repeated stupidity, we would be black and blue, at least. Evidence that He allows our free agency, even if it is used to be stupid, like holding spring break in FL amid a pandemic.
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@ATroubledMan
Every day millions of preachers around the world are calling people to repentanceSo, it's the preachers who are sending God's message, not actually God Himself? If that's the case, then I can indeed say that God is not warning me. Here are what devout religious people say about other devout religious people, or in some cases, admit about themselves."I’m a pastor and, I hate to say, I sometimes tell lies.""4 Deadly LIES Pastors Tell""Evangelical preachers, regardless of their theological flavor, are liars."
Do you seriously think that I am going to agree with you just because you post links to some random sites?
God uses pastors to preach his message. This is what he has always done in history - of course sometimes they are called prophets etc.
Each one of them is fallible and makes mistakes - but so what? God chooses to use fallible humans. I happen to think that makes sense. You can reject them as many others do. Totally your prerogative. It does not change the facts though. God chooses to warn everyone. That includes people who are doing the right thing.
The only time I would suggest you could seriously deny a warning to you - is when you live in a bubble without any pain suffering.