Water Baptism: What's the big deal?

Author: RoderickSpode ,

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  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @DeusVult
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  If it is an adult who refuses baptism yet are baptized, they have not been baptized.  If it is an infant, on whom the parents act on behalf of the child, then yes.
    I'm not sure what you mean by refuses baptism, yet are baptized. Do you mean against their will? What about someone wanting to be baptized (maybe for the sake of family, denominational tradition), but is agnostic?


    Baptism of desire.  The Church has long taught it.
    That part doesn't differ much from my view. When someone is found by Christ, becomes a child of God, they will want to be baptized. It would be a contradiction to be thankful for salvation, yet refuse the command to be baptized.

    I don't see any scriptural need to suggest that at the right moment, under right conditions of thought and attitude, in the right spot (vicinity of body of water where baptism is taking place), the water itself becomes a divine detergent. Not that it's impossible, as I think it's clear that the pool at Bethesda had a divine miraculous quality.

    It would be viewed as Abraham's Bosom.


    Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. - Luke 16:22

    A place of 'natural' happiness.
    Do they view Abraham's Bosom as a temporary abode before God determines where one will spend eternity?
  • DeusVult
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    I'm not sure what you mean by refuses baptism, yet are baptized. Do you mean against their will? What about someone wanting to be baptized (maybe for the sake of family, denominational tradition), but is agnostic?
    Let's say that my friend who isn't Christian is in a horrible car accident and is unconscious and bleeding out.  Should a Christian baptize them to save them?  It wouldn't be effective if they didn't previously express a desire - hence why you shouldn't.

    That part doesn't differ much from my view. When someone is found by Christ, becomes a child of God, they will want to be baptized. It would be a contradiction to be thankful for salvation, yet refuse the command to be baptized.
    There are Christians who only have altar calls.  Some will never get baptized because they don't feel there is a need to do so.

    I think we might differ on infant baptisms.  The child is not yet able to express such a desire, yet the parents baptize the child making him/her a member of the body of Christ and removing the stain of original sin from them.

    Do they view Abraham's Bosom as a temporary abode before God determines where one will spend eternity?
    This is where it becomes a theological debate.  Are there some who stay there forever?  Are there some that go to heaven?  If they all go to heaven, does that mean the greatest thing in the world to do is to abort a child because it means a one way trip to heaven?  Can some be rescued from there?  These things are above my pay grade.
  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    Are there some that go to heaven? 

    Where is heaven.?  What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?
  • DeusVult
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    --> @Stephen
    Where is heaven.?
    There, not here.

    What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?
    Heaven is being in the presence of God.  Eye has not seen and ear has not heard.
  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    Where is heaven.?
    There, not here.
    And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?



    What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?
    Heaven is being in the presence of God.  Eye has not seen and ear has not heard.


    Ok, that is what it is.  But I also asked -  what does  one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

    Why are you finding this question so difficult? 


  • DeusVult
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    --> @Stephen
    And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?
    Beyond creation (here), in the presence of God "there".

    Ok, that is what it is.  But I also asked -  what does  one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

    Why are you finding this question so difficult? 
    It is because you are not actually interested.  You ask disingenuous questions.  I gave you the exact words of the Bible:

    THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
                AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
                ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.

    How can one express an existence that will be unlike any that can be experienced here.  The theology of it is best expressed by St. Augustine:

    Our heart is restless until it rests in you.

    In heaven you will have the beatific vision - which is seeing God's face and you will spend eternity loving, worshiping and contemplating God.  It is a state of perfect happiness because this is the reason for which you were created.
  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?
    Beyond creation (here), in the presence of God "there". 

    So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.  


    Ok, that is what it is.  But I also asked -  what does  one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

    Why are you finding this question so difficult? 
    It is because you are not actually interested.  You ask disingenuous questions.  I gave you the exact words of the Bible:


    So, you also  do not know what it is people do when and if they manage to get to this heavenly place.   You just spout crap that you have had drummed into you since childhood. Isn't it about time you " put away your childish things"? 


    How can one express an existence that will be unlike any that can be experienced here. 

    So you don't know. After 2,000 years you don't know the answer to either of those questions above. 



    In heaven you will have the beatific vision - which is seeing God's face and you will spend eternity loving, worshiping and contemplating God. 

    I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this? 



    It is a state of perfect happiness because this is the reason for which you were created.

     I haven't asked you about the "state" of those that manage to get to this heavenly place that you know absolutely nothing about or where it is even located. I asked what do one do to occupy one's self "for all eternity"

  • DeusVult
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    --> @Stephen
    So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.  
    HAHAHAHAHA... you are so two faced.  You demand answers and when I provide all the knowledge that can be known about something you say that I refuse to acknowledge the limits of what can be known.

    So you don't know. After 2,000 years you don't know the answer to either of those questions above. 
    Once again we were told that eye has not seen and ear has not heard - you claim that we make stuff up, but when we tell you all that we've been told you get upset?  Sooooooo now you want answers to questions that cannot be answered.  Make up your mind.

    I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this? 
    Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads... the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, -  Revelation 4:4&10

    Once again, the extent of what we've been told.
  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.  
    You demand answers and when I provide all the knowledge that can be known about something

    You really area confused person aren't you. Telling me what you know and "providing all the knowledge" that you believe know  is not answering questions. It is simply you giving me responses and replies but not answers that go nowhere in answering with sound,  logical and certainly not a factual  evidence. You simply present what it is you believe you know as fact. 

    you say that I refuse to acknowledge the limits of what can be known.

    Where have I said that.  You simply cannot tell me where "heaven is"  or what a person does when he/she gets there.   So you just make shite up. You have had thousands of years to come up with logical and provable evidence to support what it is you believe and claim " you know";   and you still cannot answer what should be for you by now, simple basic questions.

    but when we tell you all that we've been told you get upset?  

    Quite the opposite. I find your non replies hilarious at times.  Told by who???



    I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this? 
    Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads... the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, -  Revelation 4:4&10

    So is all you are saying is that the bible told you - and you simply believe what the bible says?   That is a yes or no question.


    Once again, the extent of what we've been told. 

    By the bible? 


  • zedvictor4
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    --> @DeusVult
    So story tellers tell you things.

    Around the throne etc.
    Stuff of classic fantasy tales and yet accepted as true.

    So a story teller told us of a place called Middle Earth.  Are we therefore expected to accept Middle Earth as fact also.
  • DeusVult
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    --> @Stephen
    providing all the knowledge
    Taken out of context of course... providing all the knowledge that can be known.  i.e. when you cannot know something except what has been revealed.

      You simply cannot tell me where "heaven is"  or what a person does when he/she gets there.
    Because something outside of the Universe is incomprehensible.  Hence, there not here.

     You have had thousands of years to come up with logical and provable evidence
    Not testable.  Thus we are left with what has been revealed - and that is all that can be known.  What is on the other side of the veil remains a mystery for all - it is that way by design.

    So is all you are saying is that the bible told you - and you simply believe what the bible says?   That is a yes or no question.
    No.  I believe what the Church proclaims to be true - the Bible is part of that.   I say what my best understanding of this is. This is a good start:

  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    So is all you are saying is that the bible told you - and you simply believe what the bible says?   That is a yes or no question.
    No.  I believe what the Church proclaims to be true - the Bible is part of that.   I say what my best understanding of this is.

    Is not the church built around, if not on,  the words of god from the bible?



    And this sub-link is better from your  link  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2M.HTM

    [a] But is all it basically saying is that one will see god, be with god and spend eternity fawning like a sycophant. 

    So the answer to my question of what will one be doing in heaven for the rest of eternity is [a] above.


  • DeusVult
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    --> @Stephen
    Is not the church built around, if not on,  the words of god from the bible?
    The Three Pillars of the Catholic Church are:
    1-Sacred Scripture.   All of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
    2-Sacred Apostolic Tradition.  The living tradition of the Church,  the Church Fathers, the Sacred Liturgy
    3-The Church’s Magisterium -- the teaching authority of the Pope and all those bishops worldwide united  with him.

    [a] But is all it basically saying is that one will see god, be with god and spend eternity fawning like a sycophant. 

    So the answer to my question of what will one be doing in heaven for the rest of eternity is [a] above.
    A rather pejorative way of saying it.  However, what I said earlier in the thread is a simple version of what the CCC says.
  • Stephen
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    --> @DeusVult
    [a] But is all it basically saying is that one will see god, be with god and spend eternity fawning like a sycophant. 

    So the answer to my question of what will one be doing in heaven for the rest of eternity is [a] above.
    A rather pejorative way of saying it.  However, what I said earlier in the thread is a simple version of what the CCC says.

    So, the answer is  -  nothing.    Get to heaven and do nothing but fawn, and coo like a sycophant while on one's knees. 


  • Stephen
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    --> @Athias
     
    Athias to  RoderickSpode  #17

    So when asked, "Water Baptism: What's the Big Deal?" I'm stating that the big deal with Water Baptism is that it's not Hebraic, Abrahamic, Judaic, or even Christian.

    I'm stating that the submergence and reemergence from bodies of water, as is typical with Water Baptism, is Luciferian symbolism. It represents the reincarnation of Asar as his son Heru. Asar is submerged into the water after his death, and reemerges as Heru. Heru is also known by the monikers "Oannes" and "Dagon" the fish god. Thus the conclusion I extend from my premises is that Water Baptism is a veiled Luciferian ritual. 

    So are you telling him that baptism predates Christian baptism by thousands of years? 
  • Athias
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    --> @Stephen
    So are you telling him that baptism predates Christian baptism by thousands of years? 
    Non sequitur.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Athias
    So are you telling him that baptism predates Christian baptism by thousands of years? 
    Non sequitur.

    Why?




  • Athias
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    --> @Stephen
    Why?
    You are drawing conclusions which are inconsistent with my premises.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Athias
    Why?
    You are drawing conclusions which are inconsistent with my premises.

    I didn't draw any. I asked you a question.  I would have drawn a conclusion depending on your reply. 


  • Athias
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    --> @Stephen
    When you ask a closed question based on premises inconsistent with any I've argued, then yes you are drawing your own conclusion--more so projecting your impressions as conclusions I've drawn. The inquiry merely seeks to confirm your impressions. You do this almost every time you attempt to engage me in discussion. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @Athias
    OK.  Was baptism around before John the Baptist? I will settle for a yes or no.