Colin Kapernick: A F**king Coward

Author: SupaDudz ,

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  • SupaDudz
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    --> @Nemiroff
    The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful
  • SupaDudz
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    1.  If CK did not show up, you do not know what he did in private.  You just don't know.
    This is a fair point. But this is about a public appearance. He is a public figure. His actions he does in public are what someone is known for. Privacy isn't broadcasted. It's what played out publicly, and that's the point
    2.  If it was soo offensive and egregious, why don't you know the names of the "many players" that kneeled?
    Michael Bennett, the 49ers players. There are others. I am not your resource guide
    Resenting and saying you do not like or have some hate for, are VERY different.  I resent my wife for always banging the car up.  That does not mean I do not like her, or that I have any hate for her.  It's a pain in the ass she can't open her fucking eyes, and I have to deal with it.....   very different. 
    Resementment=feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person).
    Using this definition, I am resenting an action that Colin Kaepernick did. You say that I resent African Americans or their cause. This is not true. I resent the action, not the cause or the people. And I am not bitter about Colin Kaepernick.

    Bitter= (of people or their feelings or behavior) angry, hurt, or resentful because of one's bad experiences or a sense of unjust treatment.

    I did not have a bad experience with him. I simply disagree. Your definition you are using to define bitter is not what I feel. I believe what he did was disrespectful


  • SupaDudz
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    --> @CaptainSceptic
    Above, I forgot to tag
  • CaptainSceptic
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    --> @SupaDudz
    It appears as if there is a double standard.  Perhaps I am wrong.  I am trying to reconcile what you are saying.  My objective is not to have you agree with me.  It is me understanding what your issue is.  

    You took a reservation with CK's conduct for a few reasons.

    1.  You felt it offensive to military
    2.  You though it as egregious during 9/11,  even though he was not in the public eye.
    3.  You do not know the names of all the other players who took the same protest.

    Why is it not egregious for some, yet egregious for CK?

    If you look at the history of the protests, you will get a better understanding of the process.

    CK first started by sitting out of the national anthems in preseason games.  He then had conversations with Nate Boyer, a veteran and former long snapper for the Seahawks.  After those conversations, he decided to participate in the National Anthem but kneeled instead.  Others from various teams either kneeled or held up a fist as a sign of protest.

    Let's remember the exact time when the protests started.  It was a combination of factors. Public black youths being killed, white supremacy on the rise with Donald Trump being the nominee (.i.e. the support from noted white supremacists Richard Spencer)  are all contributing factors.   It has to be noted that the flag was not designed to represent the troops or the police.  It represents the 50 states, originally the 13 colonies, founded not the premise, that "all men are created equal".  That is what the flag represents,  All mean created equal.

    His exact quote after refusing to participate in the August 2016 pre-season anthem  was

    "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

    So let's look at that.   Regardless of if you agree with his deduction that the US oppresses black people and people of color,  CK still has the right to protest.  The entire premise and history of the US coming to be was based on protest.  Often attributed to the "Boston Tea Party".

    So why do we call CK out, for exercising his right, a right that the entire foundation of the country is based on?  Why is your topic not "anyone who disagrees or desecrates the flag is a fucking idiot".  Why is it CK?

    If this is about the right to burn the flag, or desecrate it, or challenging the 1989 case of Texas v. Johnson,  then that is a different story.  However, it is not.  It appears to be a targetted attack at one person, without showing any foundation.

    And that is your right.  If you just want to say,  Fuck off, its what I think, I will respond, well that is your right, and I would defend you against anyone who challenged that.




  • Nemiroff
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    --> @SupaDudz
    Again. I don't apply it should be illegal. I say that Colin Kaeprernick is being disrespectful. He SHOULD stand for the flag. My statement is the same. Stop twisting my words to sound like I'm a fascist dictator
    I am not accusing you of being the dictator, i am accusing you of being the crowd supporting the dictator and his policies. There are many authoitarian regimes, the point of mentioning fascism is, again, the hypernationalism that puts the nation above criticism.

    The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful.
    If your criticism was that kapernick was protesting something that did not deserve protest, thats a discussion. But if you say he should be ostracized (a punishment) for peacefully protest the anthem for any reason (which is what you said)... that is fascism. 

    You still did not answer what you intended to prove by comparing our events to how an authoritarian society would do. Generally if an authortiarian society would do something, the opposite is better. 

    Your argument rests on a direct connection between the national anthem and the military, yet despite repeated requests, you are not explaining this connection.

    America was built on disrespecting your nation (Britian), and the right of citizens to protest, criticize, and resist the nation. Blind love of America, and putting it beyond criticism (fascism) is the most UnAmerican thing you can do. If something cannot be criticized, it will never improve.
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @Nemiroff
    Again. I don't apply it should be illegal. I say that Colin Kaeprernick is being disrespectful. He SHOULD stand for the flag. My statement is the same. Stop twisting my words to sound like I'm a fascist dictator
    I am not accusing you of being the dictator, i am accusing you of being the crowd supporting the dictator and his policies. There are many authoitarian regimes, the point of mentioning fascism is, again, the hypernationalism that puts the nation above criticism.
    "Your loyalist, fascist, mentality is what is disrespectful to our soldiers, and our nation."

    You accused me of being a fascist. I poked holes in that. Now you say that you didn't say that. You clearly said that my mentality is fascist. If your way of thinking is fascist, you then identify yourself as a fascist. Simple. I never said that you called me a dictator. You said that I have a fascist mentality, which I responded which my claim that doing what CK did should not be punishable

    The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful.
    If your criticism was that kapernick was protesting something that did not deserve protest, thats a discussion. But if you say he should be ostracized (a punishment) for peacefully protest the anthem for any reason (which is what you said)... that is fascism. 
    I never stated he himself should be ostracized from the league. I never said he doesn't deserve a job in the NFL. I simply think it is disrespectful
    Your argument rests on a direct connection between the national anthem and the military, yet despite repeated requests, you are not explaining this connection.
    It's intended purpose in 1931 according to Mark Clague “Professional sports needed to define themselves as patriotic in order to be seen as as part of the war on the home front and center for morale rather than as an expendable entertainment which is how they were initially,”

    Smithsonian states the anthem was "The music was a hit in America. A patriotic song, "Adams and Liberty" (later changed to "Jefferson and Liberty"), adopted the tune, which was also used for a song celebrating the naval war against Barbary pirates, early in the 19th century: "When the warrior returns, from the battle afar, To the home and the country he nobly defended...." And who had written that? Francis Scott Key."

    The National Anthem is for respecting the soldiers who have died for our battle of freedom. If you have issues, you can protest these issues in an environment that does not directly relate to the death of soldiers who fought for our freedom. The anthem represents freedom, but who fought for the freedom? It was the soldiers. The anthem is a sense of patriotism for our nation, and to show gratitude for the people who helped us express our issue and peacefully protest. The anthem represents to wars that were thought in this verse

    "O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,"

    This verse in the anthem has nothing to do with the expression of injustice. It is a way to honor the military who have fought hard for our country in the first place. Hadn't they fought for our freedom, we would be under a Nazi rule where we would have no freedom of expression, and Colin Kapernick would be dead. Without the military protecting us, allowing us to protest, we would not have these rights. 

    These lines I represents show the long hours and the bombings. This is an element of the military, which Colin Kapernick still kneeled for, a sign of disrespect
    America was built on disrespecting your nation (Britian), and the right of citizens to protest, criticize, and resist the nation. Blind love of America, and putting it beyond criticism (fascism) is the most UnAmerican thing you can do. If something cannot be criticized, it will never improve.
    So you want to disrespect the soldiers who helped you fight to speak freely? Disrespect Trump all you want but you really want to disrespect our fallen troops who died so you can talk about the issue in our society

    So you have no respect for the soldiers. Good to know
  • SupaDudz
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    1.  You felt it offensive to military
    Disrespectful
    2.  You though it as egregious during 9/11,  even though he was not in the public eye.
    It was egregious not to play during 9/11. Him sitting out shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony, and he did not want to face the scrutiny, and decided to sit out
    3.  You do not know the names of all the other players who took the same protest.
    Why is it not egregious for some, yet egregious for CK?
    I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

    Let's remember the exact time when the protests started.  It was a combination of factors. Public black youths being killed, white supremacy on the rise with Donald Trump being the nominee (.i.e. the support from noted white supremacists Richard Spencer)  are all contributing factors.   
    So let's just blame Trump for cops killing people and that gives us an excuse for disrespecting the troops
    It has to be noted that the flag was not designed to represent the troops or the police.  It represents the 50 states, originally the 13 colonies, founded not the premise, that "all men are created equal".  That is what the flag represents,  All mean created equal.
    The anthem sung represents the military and the brave men that fought. The ceremony in 1931 was used to honor the troops fallen and drive patriotism in the country by honoring the troops. The national anthem itself has lines referring to the battles that happened and how the flag stood strong despite the wars fought. A reference to the troops itself

    So let's look at that.   Regardless of if you agree with his deduction that the US oppresses black people and people of color,  CK still has the right to protest. 
    I never said he didn't have the right to, I'm saying it is disrespectful to do it during the national anthem

    So why do we call CK out, for exercising his right, a right that the entire foundation of the country is based on?  Why is your topic not "anyone who disagrees or desecrates the flag is a fucking idiot".  Why is it CK?
    They are also idiots too. Fucking horrendous idiots. This is not what my post is about. My post is saying that what CK did is direspectful. The premise is not on burning the flag. That is a seperate premise. I am having a debate with you whether what CK is disrespectful, not if burning the flag is disrespectful

    And that is your right.  If you just want to say,  Fuck off, its what I think, I will respond, well that is your right, and I would defend you against anyone who challenged that.
    I'd do the same thing as well. The point here?



  • CaptainSceptic
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    --> @SupaDudz

    I have tried to show you respect and given you ways out.  I have even said how I defend you.  Unfortunately, you want to double down on nonsense.

    You state that  Ck sitting out:

    shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony,
    You don't know that.  You don't even know, because you were not there and did not ask him.  You are making shit up to defend yourself, and you just don't know.  You did not even qualify your answer, you stated it as a fact.  As a famous, yet unnamed, orange creature would say "fake news". 

    I am, but a 10th of the way through your response, and you already lose credibility.

    You then state in response to the question about why would you highlight CK ad not the others who protested,

    I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

    It does matter.  You entire premise is based on conduct that is egregious.  You give no reason to highlight CK and he was not even there.  Your premise is based on a supposition on why CK did not attend.  You have no idea the names of the other players.... because you say it does not matter.  Why does it matter for CK?

    Your next retort is not helpful.  Trump had not been elected.  He was the nominee as I stated.  At the time and up for the following 18 months there was a much higher level of white supremacists narrative.    I never said Trump was the cause.  Trump's own words ad Spencers endorsement did not help.  combined with publicity on some black youths being killed by cops, in questionable circumstances did not help the social narrative of the time.

    Next, you tie yourself in a logical know.  You say at one point the anthem is about the brave "men" who fought.  If you are defending the rights of the military and their honor why are you sexist about it?    The troop death on the day of 9/11 is a handful.  Al horrifically caused by heinous acts.  However, there were collectively thousands of fathers, mothers, children, civil servants, public servants killed.   

    You misrepresent what the flag is, what 9/11 is, and what the national anthem is for.  You draw baseless conclusions about why CK did not show up.  Your concern for others that acted in an "egregious manner" is summed up by a "yeah well they were bad."

    You are focusing on CK, who was not even present and calling him a Fcking idiot.  You do not respect his right to protest (if that is what he was doing, but we do not know that because he was not in public and made no comments about why he was not present).

    In your misplaced cloud of patriotism, you cast an enormous tarp of justification and unqualified censorship, failing to recognize that even when people disagree with you, defending their right to disagree is more important than trying to censor them for not agreeing.

    The title and your narrative still strongly suggest an individual issue with CK rather than a border issue with the behavior.



    Side note:  The anthem is actually about part of the war of 1812).    While Britain did end up burning down the Whitehouse, that particular battle was in favour of the new country US, 15 states at t the time.  
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @CaptainSceptic
    I have tried to show you respect and given you ways out.  I have even said how I defend you.  Unfortunately, you want to double down on nonsense.

    You state that  Ck sitting out:

    shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony,
    You don't know that.  You don't even know, because you were not there and did not ask him.  You are making shit up to defend yourself, and you just don't know.  You did not even qualify your answer, you stated it as a fact.  As a famous, yet unnamed, orange creature would say "fake news". 
    Then why would he not play on 9/11. What could be the reason? What's one logical reason he would sit out during 9/1?  I am also to make assumptions based on past evidence and using my overall. You can safely assume the reason why something happened is because of a certain reason. The reason is that he was planning to kneel. He wasn't injured when he decided to sit out. Stop with this nonsense
    I am, but a 10th of the way through your response, and you already lose credibility.
    Nice credibility attack. 
    You then state in response to the question about why would you highlight CK ad not the others who protested,

    I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

    It does matter.  You entire premise is based on conduct that is egregious.  You give no reason to highlight CK and he was not even there.  Your premise is based on a supposition on why CK did not attend.  You have no idea the names of the other players.... because you say it does not matter.  Why does it matter for CK?
    I am highlighting his overall actions he did during the time-frame. You focus on 9/11 and have that same delusion. You're argument is full of delusion saying I'm focusing on 9/11. I am not listening to this argument anymore because you don't understand and just dismiss it.
    Next, you tie yourself in a logical know.  You say at one point the anthem is about the brave "men" who fought.  If you are defending the rights of the military and their honor why are you sexist about it?   
    Is this a joke? Sexist
    The troop death on the day of 9/11 is a handful.  Al horrifically caused by heinous acts.  However, there were collectively thousands of fathers, mothers, children, civil servants, public servants killed.   
    We honor all the people that died in 9/11. We honor those as well when we remember 9/11. What's your point
    You misrepresent what the flag is, what 9/11 is, and what the national anthem is for.  You draw baseless conclusions about why CK did not show up.  Your concern for others that acted in an "egregious manner" is summed up by a "yeah well they were bad."

    You are focusing on CK, who was not even present and calling him a Fcking idiot.  You do not respect his right to protest (if that is what he was doing, but we do not know that because he was not in public and made no comments about why he was not present).

    In your misplaced cloud of patriotism, you cast an enormous tarp of justification and unqualified censorship, failing to recognize that even when people disagree with you, defending their right to disagree is more important than trying to censor them for not agreeing.

    The title and your narrative still strongly suggest an individual issue with CK rather than a border issue with the behavior.

    I am done arguing with you about this matter. You have only come to hasty generalizations about my topic and have gotten off track of the topic. My generalization is an assumption reasonable to make. This is not a 9/11 argument overall. I did not say CK shouldn't protest, but the way he went about kneeling is disrespectful. You throw that argument out of the window and just tie back to one evidence of 9/11, ignoring all the evidence made. This is about kneeling, not his act during 9/11. You completely twisted my words in a way. I have said it multiple times that I have a problem with the protest, yet you say I have a personal vendetta. This is wrong

    Have fun making generalizations about my argument. You clearly don't understand my point

  • Nemiroff
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    --> @SupaDudz
    You accused me of being a fascist. I poked holes in that. Now you say that you didn't say that. You clearly said that my mentality is fascist. If your way of thinking is fascist, you then identify yourself as a fascist.
    I didn't say i didn't call you a fascist, i defined fascist, or at least its defining characteristic. Hypernationalism. which i bolded several times. There was no walk back. Your extreme patriotism and loyalism is fascism. Love thy nation does not mean you have to think your nation is perfect and beyond improvement.

    I never stated he himself should be ostracized from the league. I never said he doesn't deserve a job in the NFL. I simply think it is disrespectful
    You didn't simply *judge his actions* as "disrespectful." 
    You *judged his person* as "a f--king coward" and "a bitch." All within the first post.
    And nobody mentioned the league. 

    It's intended purpose in 1931 according to Mark Clague “Professional sports needed to define themselves as patriotic in order to be seen as as part of the war on the home front and center for morale rather than as an expendable entertainment which is how they were initially,”

    Smithsonian states the anthem was "The music was a hit in America. A patriotic song, "Adams and Liberty" (later changed to "Jefferson and Liberty"), adopted the tune, which was also used for a song celebrating the naval war against Barbary pirates, early in the 19th century: "When the warrior returns, from the battle afar, To the home and the country he nobly defended...." And who had written that? Francis Scott Key."

    The National Anthem is for respecting the soldiers who have died for our battle of freedom. If you have issues, you can protest these issues in an environment that does not directly relate to the death of soldiers who fought for our freedom.
    I dont know who that guy is, but neither sports or the anthem were invented in 1931. The fact that a song that was inspired by the anthem (and not the anthem itself) was used in celebration of a single naval battle against some pirates is completely irrelevant. Its a song of how proud we are of the perseverance of our *rebellion* against authority, in the name of freedom.

    These are some LOOSE connections my friend.

    "O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,"
    This verse in the anthem has nothing to do with the expression of injustice. It is a way to honor the military who have fought hard for our country in the first place. Hadn't they fought for our freedom, we would be under a Nazi rule where we would have no freedom of expression, and Colin Kapernick would be dead. Without the military protecting us, allowing us to protest, we would not have these rights. 

    These lines I represents show the long hours and the bombings. This is an element of the military, which Colin Kapernick still kneeled for, a sign of disrespect
    These lines represent the military of an enemy nation, our own previous nation that refused to listen to our pleas and demanded we swear allegiance to them without question. No.

    You are completely twisting the meaning of that verse. The injustice already happened. This verse immortalizes our survival of our oppressor's wrath, and eventual triumph.

    So you want to disrespect the soldiers who helped you fight to speak freely? Disrespect Trump all you want but you really want to disrespect our fallen troops who died so you can talk about the issue in our society

    So you have no respect for the soldiers. Good to know
    What im trying to explain to you is that neither i nor Kaepernick disrespected any soldier. The anthem has nothing to do with the military. Indeed one can say that by trying to falsely use their sacrifice as a way to score a debate point, the only one disrespecting soldiers here is you.

21 days later

  • ethang5
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    --> @Nemiroff
    The anthem has nothing to do with the military. 
    Does the flag have anything to do with the military? If so, why doesn't the anthem have the same links?

    If not, why does the American military carry the flag on it's uniforms and equipment? Why do military personnel play the anthem at official functions? Every nations anthem has something to do wit their military.

    CK is a snowflake too caught up in PC groupthink to be grateful for the privilege afforded him by his great nation. No one wants him now because he was disrespectful. He should go sit down. We will watch player with more talent and more respect.
  • Nemiroff
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    You have proven that our military represents our flag.
    You have not proven that the flag represents our military.
    Our military defends the ideals of our nation.
    The ideal of our nation are not the military.
    Why do you think fascist dictators are the ones that tend to have military parades and not democratic societies?

    The military has little to do with internal politics. He is protesting internal politics. Internal politics, like police, and courts, are also a major part of the flag. This is a distraction.
  • ethang5
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    You have proven that our military represents our flag.
    I said nothing about representation.

    You have not proven that the flag represents our military.
    Nor did I intend to. The comment I was responding to was, "The anthem has nothing to do with the military." That comment is incorrect.

    Our military defends the ideals of our nation. The ideal of our nation are not the military.
    And none of this is pertinent to our discussion.

    Why do you think fascist dictators are the ones that tend to have military parades and not democratic societies?
    Is France a democratic society?

    The military has little to do with internal politics. He is protesting internal politics. Internal politics, like police, and courts, are also a major part of the flag. This is a distraction.
    Eh. CK was disrespectful. The swath of people offended by his behavior is evidence his behavior was hurtful. He should have protested in a none disrespectful way. But he freely chose to do so. Repeatedly. He exercised his right to protest, now he is suffering the consequences of doing so. He should quit whining and go sit down. 
  • Mharman
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    I don't think he's a coward. He sacrificed his career for his cause.

    However. I find the cause to be utter BS, as it is all based off of anecdotal evidence, where even then, not all supposed cases are actual examples of police brutality. There are still cases of police brutality, but statistically they are unlikely and officers who are willing to brutalize a suspect are also rare. Consider that there were 4 officers in the George Floyd case out of 800 (0.5%) full time officers in Minneapolis. Consider that this is the first major incident in a long time in Minneapolis. Consider that out of about 53,500,000 people involved in an incident with the police in 2015, only 965 resulted in fatal shootings, and not all of those were brutality.
  • Athias
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    I don't think he's a coward. He sacrificed his career for his cause.
    "Sacrificed"? That's a generous term considering his actions. His opting out of his contract with the 49ers fails to get mentioned, as well as his offer to join the Baltimore Ravens. He rejected the offer because he wanted a starting position despite his being on the back end of his career. And then, even after being invited to a workout where numerous NFL team scouts would be located, he decided to have a "private" workout which ironically hosted many members of the sports media. He didn't "sacrifice" much. I'm sure he gets paid more by NIKE now than he would have playing football.



  • SupaDudz
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    He wants to be a martyr more than a player, despite the fact he has had offers
  • Athias
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    And Nessa and NIKE are the ones plugging that battery in his back.
  • Mharman
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    Dang, that's a fair point.
  • armoredcat
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    guys please respect the flag soldiers died for dominance in the middle east I mean our freedom and its not like black people have been discriminated against/killed under that flag so please respect it guys God bless america
  • SupaDudz
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    The soldiers also died so that we don't have to be Hitler's puppets. They also died so you are able to protest
  • armoredcat
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    What, 80 years ago? 

    How hard is it to understand that the people who actually got fucked by America get to protest America?

15 days later

  • ethang5
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    --> @armoredcat
    No one has said protest should not happen. What we have said is that there is a right way and a wrong way to protest.

    True protest means you love your country and feel it could be better. The kind of protest we see now is just America hating morons wanting to wild out. Protests that burn the country down instead of repairing it.

    Protest all you want, but cutting off your nose to spite your face is idiocy.

    The OP is right, Colin Kapernick is a f**king Coward.
  • SupaDudz
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    Going back on this post, I have a problem with Kapernick more than I have with kneeling itself. I still think it’s disrespectful, but with the whole situation occurring, it changed my mind a bit
  • armoredcat
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    --> @ethang5
    Once again... Asking people to give credit to the country that fucked them over is just not feasible. You want people to respect your country? Have the country respect people. Not done yet in America. 

    If a protest points the finger at actual issues that exist in our country and spreads it to a wider audience, and some people have to get triggered for that to happen then that is a worthy tradeoff by me. 
  • ethang5
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    Asking people to give credit....
    No one asked CK to give credit. He just didn't need to be disrespectful.

    ...that is a worthy tradeoff by me. 
    You weren't the one doing the "trading".