The Free Will-Omniscience Dilemma

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  • PressF4Respect
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    According to the bible, God is omniscient: 
    Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
    His understanding is infinite. (Psalm 147:5)
    This is a core tenet of the Judeo-Christian faith.

    Also according to the bible, you can repent and be forgiven:
    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
    This means that you can choose to repent and be baptized. This means that you are ultimately a free being, and have the autonomy to choose your path (in this case, to repent and go to heaven, or to not repent and go to hell). This is also a core tenet of the Judeo-Christian faith. If this wasn't the case, then your entire future (including whether you go to heaven or hell) would already be determined for you, and there would be no choice whatsoever in that regard, as it would have already been made for you.

    The final piece of this dilemma is the law of identity, the basic law of logic that states that A=A. That is, that A cannot be something that is not A. 

    With these three pieces, we can now formulate the dilemma.

    P1: A=A. A =/= not A.
    P2: Free will stipulates that if there are two or more outcomes for a being to choose, then each outcome has a non-zero probability of happening.
    P3: God is never wrong.
    P4: God's omniscience means that He knows everything, including all future events. If He already knows the outcome, and He is never wrong, then the probability for that outcome is 1, and the probability for every other outcome is zero.
    P5: It can't be the case that an outcome has both a zero and a non-zero chance of happening. (from P1)
    C1: Therefore, free will and God's omniscience are incompatible. 

    Unless you can find a logical error in this syllogism, you must make the choice between free will and God's omniscience. Neither choice bodes well for Christianity or Judaism (or any other religion that holds both of these to be true).

    If free will is the case, then God is not omniscient, which goes against the core tenet of God's omniscience, as described in Psalm 147:5 (and verses like it). 

    If God's omniscience is the case, then there is no free will, which goes against the core tenet of repentance and man's free choice to repent, as described in Acts 2:38 (and verses like it).

    I invite anyone to take a shot at this.



  • BrotherDThomas
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    .
    PressF4Respect,

    Barring the fact that you are an ungodly "fence sitting" Agnostic, and in other terms to your fine and well thought out proposition above regarding Free Will, Christians DO NOT have it, period!

    Like you said, my serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is omniscient, which is defined as: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight; possessed of universal or complete knowledge.  This definition is vouchsafed biblically by this one of many passages: “If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” (1 John 3:20)

    Therefore, Jesus' omniscience prevails at all times over our assumed actions of having the Free Will concept.  Jesus in this sense has already determined in how we will act and what we will do in the future 24/7/365, and is basically the “Puppet Master” in pulling our strings as the “Puppet” to do what He wants, and not what we perceive to want! When Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate and omniscient, then He  knows whether we will be going to Heaven or Hell upon our demise since the beginning of time!  Therefore, our wishful thinking of all of this forgiveness doctrine and other trite sayings of forgiveness is all for naught. (Proverbs 16:33)


    .


  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @Athias @Dr.Franklin @ethang5 @EtrnlVw @PGA2.0
    I have a feeling you might be interested in this
  • EtrnlVw
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    Number one I'm not a good proponent to keep within the fundamentalist sets of dogma within the Christian sphere. So if you want to battle this out with a purely Bible thumping believer that would be your Brother D.
    I'm not the one to play these games with. However, I have a really good grasp on these scriptures because I have been studying them and applying them for a long time. 
    Having said that I could play the role of a fundamentalist because I see some holes in your conclusions. 

    To start with I don't think the first passage you quoted means God knows everything. It says His understanding is infinite, that's not the same thing IMO. There's a difference in the ability to understand something as opposed to having complete foreknowledge of everything that will happen. 
    One way I can show that God doesn't know everything using the Bible is the accounts of the OT. There's a passage that says God was grieved when Israel rebelled and forgot His covenant and actually this is the entire theme of the OT that His people continually grieved God's spirit.... in other words did the OPPOSITE of what God WANTED.  
    How could God be grieved if God had already known or planned for that to happen? how could they have done the opposite of what God wanted?

    Psalm 78
    When He slew them, then they sought Him;
    And they returned and sought earnestly for God.
    35 Then they remembered that God was their rock,
    And the Most High God their Redeemer.
    36 Nevertheless they flattered Him with their mouth,
    And they lied to Him with their tongue;
    37 For their heart was not steadfast with Him,
    Nor were they faithful in His covenant.
    38 But He, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity,
    And did not destroy them.
    Yes, many a time He turned His anger away,
    And did not stir up all His wrath;
    39 For He remembered that they were but flesh,
    A breath that passes away and does not come again.
    40 How often they provoked[h] Him in the wilderness,
    And grieved Him in the desert!
    41 Yes, again and again they tempted God,

    How could any of the above mean that God was omniscient? how could God get angry or disappointed knowing everything?

    During the Noah's Ark account it is written that God was sorrowful (regretted) that he created man and that it grieved God's heart. 
    Genesis 6
    "5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    So if you're assuming predestination how is it that God could be grieved at mans wrong doings and make a decision to wipe them out? 

    In James the first chapter it says this....
    James 1
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
    16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Again, this passage reveals Gods creation has their own will to choose. 

    So I'm going with God is NOT omniscient, and it's simply due to the way man is created. The nature of the creative imagination of man and the development of his perceptions are far too complex for even God to predict. This has no bearing on what God is of course, God doesn't need to control man like a Puppet Master to be God, or know everything man will choose, or predestinate mans choices to be God. It's a misconception, man becomes his own agent within creation and is subject to the laws and consequences of creation. 
    I don't care about whether or not God is omniscient it makes no real difference other than people get the wrong ideas about God. Now everything I said here all falls perfectly inline with mans salvation, there is no dilemma. 

    Having said all that we could also discuss God without using the Bible because the Bible isn't perfect either. It has errors and contains information that isn't useful. 

    A good way to perceive the God of the Bible anyways is to view His creation like having pets lol, He's in control of mans environment, mans world, mans provisions, mans surroundings but not mans decisions or destinies. 
    Kind of like when you have a pet, a dog or say a fish tank. You as the master (God) are in control of their environment completely, their housing, their food sources, temperature controls and all the little things they need to survive. So you take that pet and you place it within that environment and you can even predict what it might do in given circumstances, you know it might fight with certain other pets, you may know all these little things about them but the one thing you aren't in control over is their decisions, you might be able to predict some of the things they do but you didn't predestinate it. Once you place them in their environment they are free to act as they will, choose when and where they go therein and what they want when they want it. Your pet might even have bad or good predispositions but you didn't make it so. 
    All in all that pet views you as their God or Master despite the fact you have no real omniscience it doesn't negate the fact you are still their Master. God's creation is the same way, He can control everything within their environments but God doesn't predestinate what mans choices will be. And that's because God gifted man with his own mind, imagination and creative nature. Those are factors too complex to predict or foreknow. 
    God can predict certain things, but that's not the same as predestinate, two entirely different concepts. One is an understanding of something, the other means to control. 

  • ethang5
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    Press, let me show you one of the places your logic train went off the tracks.

    P2: Free will stipulates that if there are two or more outcomes for a being to choose, then each outcome has a non-zero probability of happening.
    Here, your focus is the probability of the outcome of the decision maker.

    P5: It can't be the case that an outcome has both a zero and a non-zero chance of happening.
    As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision.

    I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.

    Further, your, "P3: God is never wrong." is incorrect and misleading, as God is not guessing. Your implication is that God is not wrong about probability of an outcome, but there are no probabilities from God's perspective, God knows the probability of the outcome not because He guessed it correctly, but because He "observed" it occur.

    God's omniscience are not guesses about the future, God has no "future". When His says you will do X next year, He is not predicting, He is telling you what has transpired. For you, doing X is in your future, for God, it has occurred.

    So the typical question to this "dilemma", " Could the person have made a different decision?" is illogical. Because had the person made a different decision, God would have "seen" that and said so, because He is not predicting, He is commenting.

    It is not God's omniscience that causes you to do X, it is your doing X that causes God to be omniscient about it.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @ethang5
    Welcome back to Mr Ascerbic.



    Perhaps you made the logical error by believing in a god.

    Though, what exactly is a logical error?....One would assume that the very nature of an error would render it illogical....And similarly that something that is logical can not actually be erroneous.

    Decisions, decisions.

    I would suggest that  we are all constrained by the limits, and more so the content of our conditioned databases.  So had we been taught differently, we probably would have made different decisions......Hence the zealot and the sceptic develop not by choice or decision, but by conditioning.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    why are you assmuming it just one outcome?
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    This is why I have sought and have found and currently practicing what I like to call ummmmmm.    Joining a bunch of religious groups quickly.
    I can join like 25 of em just with the words ( I except  Jesus christ as me lord and savior. ) and powwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww I am a dozen types of Christian. 

    I have also been saving my " getting born again " 

    I'd love to know what is the absolute least you can do to get to that heaven joint that they all talk about. 
    It sounds fuking beautiful.   

    But let's get one thing clear. 
    WHEN YA DIE, THERE WILL BE A BLOKE WITH A CHECK LIST FULL STOP

     Oh and with the ease of joining these groups I do suspect that some of these " Christians and just normals but say they are a Christian.  
    A half arsed theist,  if you will.


    Good game 
    Good game
  • PGA2.0
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    According to the bible, God is omniscient: 
    Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
    His understanding is infinite. (Psalm 147:5)
    This is a core tenet of the Judeo-Christian faith.

    Also according to the bible, you can repent and be forgiven:
    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
    This means that you can choose to repent and be baptized. This means that you are ultimately a free being, and have the autonomy to choose your path (in this case, to repent and go to heaven, or to not repent and go to hell). This is also a core tenet of the Judeo-Christian faith. If this wasn't the case, then your entire future (including whether you go to heaven or hell) would already be determined for you, and there would be no choice whatsoever in that regard, as it would have already been made for you.

    The final piece of this dilemma is the law of identity, the basic law of logic that states that A=A. That is, that A cannot be something that is not A. 

    With these three pieces, we can now formulate the dilemma.

    P1: A=A. A =/= not A.
    P2: Free will stipulates that if there are two or more outcomes for a being to choose, then each outcome has a non-zero probability of happening.
    P3: God is never wrong.
    P4: God's omniscience means that He knows everything, including all future events. If He already knows the outcome, and He is never wrong, then the probability for that outcome is 1, and the probability for every other outcome is zero.
    P5: It can't be the case that an outcome has both a zero and a non-zero chance of happening. (from P1)
    C1: Therefore, free will and God's omniscience are incompatible.
    We have a will and we choose, but who said our wills are free? They are governed or influenced by the baggage we collect along life's way and by that choice Adam made. Adam had a will uninfluenced or unaffected by sin so his will was free to choose either, believe God or believe Satan until he committed to the lies of Satan. He heard from God and he heard from the serpent. He chose to know both good and evil by eating the fruit. God knew he would make the choice yet Adam chose it. God did not force Adam, God just warned Adam of the consequences. 

    God lives outside of time. He sees before Him the end from the beginning. The time continuum was created by Him especially for humanity. We see God creating humanity different from the animals, in the likeness and image of God, with attributes that are like God's although limited, being able to reason, within limits, having dominion over things, although limited. God made humanity both physical beings and spiritual beings. There was a beginning. We have a beginning. We live. We die. God is eternally present. All events are before God. Every thought you make God is aware of yet He allows you to make them. He does not make them for you. You make them. 

    So, it is not God who made the decision to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was Adam who chose. God provided Adam with the warning of what would happen - spiritual death or separation from a close relationship with God, no longer forever in His presence, by barring humanity from Eden. Satan said to Eve, did God really say and told her the lie. Adam chose to know both good and evil. Before he only knew the good. Evil is going against God's goodness. It is the path of relativism, seeing and experiencing everything through our own subjective thinking instead of God's objective council. 

    Yes, Adam's choice was predetermined. God knew Adam would eat. God had a plan for Adam eating the fruit. God allowed Adam the choice of eating or not eating. It was Adam's choice. Adam chose. We are influenced by Adam's choice. Now we too understand good and evil. We understand what it is like to do evil. Adam did not understand this until he ate. 

    Unless you can find a logical error in this syllogism, you must make the choice between free will and God's omniscience. Neither choice bodes well for Christianity or Judaism (or any other religion that holds both of these to be true).

    If free will is the case, then God is not omniscient, which goes against the core tenet of God's omniscience, as described in Psalm 147:5 (and verses like it). 

    If God's omniscience is the case, then there is no free will, which goes against the core tenet of repentance and man's free choice to repent, as described in Acts 2:38 (and verses like it).

    I invite anyone to take a shot at this.
    We are free to make choices. Nobody else makes those choices but us. Those choices are influenced by our sinful nature. Because of the Fall, our nature is hostile to God. It is in open rebellion to God. It chooses to reject Him. It requires an act from God of divine grace. That grace comes from His word, His Spirit, His Son. We see the problem of our sin. We witness it around us and done by us every day. God, through His word, offers a solution. Believe Him. Believe in what He has done. Why do you choose not to do this? Because your mind is set on earthly things. It wants what it wants. Thus, it requires an act of divine grace. Faith comes through hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ, God's anointed One, the Messiah. Believe God or go your own way. Believe or deny. You see what living apart from God's grace does; you witness it every day in humanity's inhumanity. You witness the inconsistency of your thinking apart from God, your inability to explain existence. But being created in His image and likeness you also see goodness. You act accordingly, in part, when you sometimes live as His decrees say to live - loving your neighbour. So, there is this witness of conscience. You know there are some things that are right and others that are wrong. There is also this witness of the universe and its grandeur that speaks of a greater grandeur and glory -  God. Then there is the witness of the Word, the Bible, in its internal consistency of themes and truths that speak to your conscious. God has given us a written revelation that we may know Him. So, you are without excuse before God for your sins. He has provided sufficient witness of Himself and a way of salvation.    
  • Stephen
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    You've made a logical error.
    ? Is that a made up term?  I have to wonder if god made many of those, logically?
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @ethang5




    .
    Ethang5,

    AN “ARRAY OF DISARRAY” OF ETHANG5’S SATANIC WORD SALADS:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error. ……….“Further, your, "P3: God is never wrong." is incorrect and misleading, as God is not guessing. Your implication is that God is not wrong about probability of an outcome, but there are no probabilities from God's perspective, God knows the probability of the outcome not because He guessed it correctly, but because He "observed" it occur. ………..God’s omniscience are not guesses about the future, God has no "future". When His says you will do X next year, He is not predicting, He is telling you what has transpired. For you, doing X is in your future, for God, it has occurred. …….. It is not God's omniscience that causes you to do X, it is your doing X that causes God to be omniscient about it.”

    HOLY JESUS CHRIST, in the last 6 weeks that the number one bible ignorant fool ethang5 was gone because of yet another ban, didn’t we miss his Satanic mumbo-jumbo word salads like was shown above? NOT!

    NOTE: Not once did ethang5 provide biblical vouchsafing to his assumed knowledge, NOT ONCE! The only thing the number 1 Bible fool provided was his own ever so wanting assumptions, hearsay, and subjective opinions that biblically fall flat upon their proverbial face! As seen many times before, what ethang5 personally thinks he knows, does not align with the Bible where literally the last word is to be taken over ethangs ungodly words!



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.”

    As usual, ethang5’s Bible ignorance stands to the forefront  once again! In general, as shown below, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost does makes decisions for his followers:

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.” (Proverbs 3:5-6) 

    If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” (James 1:5)

    “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.” (Jeremiah 29:11)

    The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #2: “God is never wrong." is incorrect and misleading, as God is not guessing. Your implication is that God is not wrong about probability of an outcome, but there are no probabilities from God's perspective, God knows the probability of the outcome not because He guessed it correctly, but because He "observed" it occur.”

    Ethang5’s jabberwocky word salad above simply deduces to the fact that Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost is OMNISCIENT, where one can stop at this point to determine the now and the future. Therefore, doing the simple math that Ethang 5 can even understand, is there is NO FREE WILL to the adherents of Christianity because Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost knows everything about you and what you are going to do in infinite future, period!

    “O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3). 

    “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4). 



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #3: “God’s omniscience are not guesses about the future, God has no "future". When His says you will do X next year, He is not predicting, He is telling you what has transpired. For you, doing X is in your future, for God, it has occurred.

    Ethang5’s gibberish word salad above only shows again in how biblically ignorant he truly is in the fact that Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost always will have a future in helping man with his plans, where the irony is that Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost knows beforehand in ALL that man is going to do anyway in the following passage:

    The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)

    “He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5). 

    Does the Bible ignorant ethang5 AND PGA2.0 want to call Jesus's inspired words above as LIES like both have done before, where said verses establish AGAIN that the pseudo-christian duo does not have Free Will because of Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost being omniscient, period!



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #4: “It is not God's omniscience that causes you to do X, it is your doing X that causes God to be omniscient about it.”

    Ethang5’s abracadabra babble word salad literally slaps Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost in the face! Since the term omniscience is defined as:  “One who is omniscient literally knows all now and into the future, having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight,” where the key word is infinite. Therefore poor ethang5’s statement of “it is your doing X that causes God to be omniscient about it” is BLATANTLY FALSE because Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost knew infinitely beforehand you were going to do X without question, and doesn’t need you to do something before God is aware of it! HELLO ETHANG5, ANYBODY HOME TODAY, OBVIOUSLY NOT! LOL!


    Members of this forum, subsequent to me easily Bible Slapping Silly®️ ethang5 AGAIN,  we are going to have to expect him once again to blather forth more Satanic word salads like he has done in his embarrassing post #5 within this thread. Furthermore, when easily questioning ethang5 about said prattle where he has no way out to biblical axioms, logic and reason, you will see him use some of the most wanting and comical RUN AWAY excuses that this prestigious forum has ever seen, bar none!  Just watch!


    .





  • BrotherDThomas
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    zedvictor4,

    Pertaining to your post #6, very well said. The caveat of which, the facts that you have posed will keep the number one biblical fool ethang5 at bay.


    .
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    I take it to believe that you have a hard determinist stance on this issue. This raises a few key points, namely that due to the established church doctrine that we can never know for sure whether or not we are in God's grace and the stance of hard determinism, the ultimate fate of everyone (whether they are going to heaven or hell) is determined at the moment of conception, nothing one does can change it, and no one knows their true fate. I don't think many Christians would be willing to swallow this bitter pill.

    Also, this would completely refute arguments contingent on free will, such as Plantinga's Free Will defense.
  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    NOTE: Not once did ethang5 provide biblical vouchsafing to his assumed knowledge, NOT ONCE! The only thing the number 1 Bible fool provided was his own ever so wanting assumptions, hearsay, and subjective opinions that biblically fall flat upon their proverbial face! As seen many times before, what ethang5 personally thinks he knows, does not align with the Bible where literally the last word is to be taken over ethangs ungodly words!

    I did note and  found that I couldn't have put that better, Brother.


    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.”

    As usual, ethang5’s Bible ignorance stands to the forefront  once again! In general, as shown below, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost does makes decisions for his followers:

    “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.” (Proverbs 3:5-6) 

    O dear




    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.”  As usual, ethang5’s Bible ignorance stands to the forefront  once again! In general, as shown below, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost does makes decisions for his followers:

    If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” (James 1:5)

    O dear ,O dear.



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.”  As usual, ethang5’s Bible ignorance stands to the forefront  once again! In general, as shown below, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost does makes decisions for his followers:


    “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.” (Jeremiah 29:11)
    O dear ,O dear, O dear.



    ETHANG5’S BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #1:  “As God is not the decision maker, His knowledge has no baring on the probability of the outcome of the decision. I don't think that needs further explanation. You've made a logical error.”  As usual, ethang5’s Bible ignorance stands to the forefront  once again! In general, as shown below, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost does makes decisions for his followers:

    The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)

    O dear ,O dear, O dear ,O dear.
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @PressF4Respect


    .
    PressF4Respect,

    YOUR QUOTE OF JESUS' POSITION: "I take it to believe that you have a hard determinist stance on this issue."

    As shown against the number one bible ignorant fool ethang5, and his equally ignorant cohort PGA2.0, Jesus' inspired words within the scriptures have a "hard determinist stance" towards them and any pseudo-christian that tries in vain to rewrite the Bible to their own liking.  An omniscient God concept cancels out any Free Will position just by the definition of the term, let alone the biblical passages by Jesus Himself that determines in the future, and until your end, and in an absolute manner, your fate upon your earthly demise. The pseudo-christians can pray until they're blue in the face, but at birth, Jesus has a already made the decision of whether you are going to Hell, or to our 1400 square mile heaven!  

    Always remember, if any proposition is not vouchsafed within the Bible by Jesus' inspired words like I have explicitly shown, then it becomes nothing but speculation as the truly ignorant pseudo-christians like ethang5 and PGA2.0 have embarrassingly shown us in their comical Satanic word salads within this thread.  

    “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.” (Isaiah 46:9-10)


    .
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen



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    Stephen,

    Yes, the Bible ignorant ethang5 has a lot of explaining to do if or when he comes out from where his posse is hiding in the mountains of despair.  Jesus warned us about Satans minions that would try to change His words, like ethang5 and PGA2.0 are trying to do, but Jesus and I together will NEVER let this happen! 

    "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)
  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
     If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)

    O dear, deary me! 

    I come across this habit of people rewriting scripture quite often Brother. I find it is a tactic usually used by those who have deemed themselves to have : well,  read it from the horses mouth above #4 for  yourself:



    I have a really good grasp on these scriptures because I have been studying them and applying them for a long time. 

    ....only to find this never to be the case. I have found when simply challenged on anything biblical , they resort to all sort of shenanigans  including the "rewriting scripture" when stuck for a straight and simple answer. 

    I am not sure if Revelation is referring to  bible tampering as a whole,  but if I was a Christian, I would be concerned about adding things and omitting from scripture when reading this  frightful and cautionary verse>>

    Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

    and this one>>

    Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.



  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen


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    Stephen,

    OH MY GOD!  With you expounding upon the truly inspired words of Jesus the Christ, that make the pseudo-christians within this thread Bible ignorant fools, it is like you saw the light and have become a TRUE Christian like me!  Unfortunately, I know this is not the case, but the irony remains that you know more about the Bible than the pseudo-christians being made Bible fools within this thread.

    .
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @PGA2.0



    .
    PGA2.0,

    We can only assume that you are jealous of Ethang5 returning, in that it is a given that he is the most bibilcally ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART Religion forum, bar none!  Therefore, with your complete Bible ignorance as well, you seemingly want to be number one by taking his place!

    To address your partial Bible Ignorance equal to your ungodly cohort ethang5 doing the same thing in the name of Satan in his comical and embarrassing post#5, and to save you further embarrassment, I will only address a few of your Satanic statements because Jesus only knows that I don’t have the time to address them all in your ungodly post #9!


    Case in point: 

    YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTES #1: “So, it is not God who made the decision to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was Adam who chose.”  “Yes, Adam's choice was predetermined. God knew Adam would eat. God had a plan for Adam eating the fruit. God allowed Adam the choice of eating or not eating. It was Adam's choice. Adam chose. We are influenced by Adam's choice. Now we t” Adam did not understand this until he ate." 

    Oh my, Jesus did not have to make any decision whatsoever in eating from the Tree of Knowledge because Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost created the Tree of Knowledge to begin with and had all of its attributes anyway, H-E-L-L-O?!

    Furthermore, it was NOT Adam that chose to sin first, it was the soon to be 2nd class citizen Eve that chose to be first!

    "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”  (1 Timothy 2:14)”. Get it? Huh?   Besides, how could Adam be held culpable to sinning first  since he had not received the knowledge of right and wrong that the Tree would give him in knowing the sin scenario?!  It was the bitch Eve that set the whole aspect of original sin in motion, not Adam!  LEARN YOU BIBLE!  Therefore, to prevent you from further embarrassment next time, as if your Hell Bound Preterist faith wasn’t enough in this respect, use my Biblical knowledge that I have given you instead of your Satanic speculation, understood?



    YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE #2: “God lives outside of time. He sees before Him the end from the beginning.”

    CORRECTO! Thank you for understanding that your quote is just another biblical axiom that pseudo-christians like you do not have Free Will in anyway whatsoever! “He sees before Him the end from the beginning,” meaning Jesus controls in what every one of his Jewish creation will do or not do in every minute detail in their entire lifetimes from conception to their demise, and knows beforehand again if that person is Hell Bound or will go to our glorious 1400 square mile heaven (Psalm 139:1-3)

    You are excused at this time.

    NEXT?


    .




  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”  (1 Timothy 2:14)”. Get it? Huh?

       Besides, how could Adam be held culpable to sinning first  since he had not received the knowledge of right and wrong that the Tree would give him in knowing the sin scenario?! 

    The times I have posed this very question to the devout Christian and have been met with silence is  innumerable, Brother.

    And my follow up question is why was only the man expelled and not the woman? Genesis 3:23

    Of course,  I have found them to be unable to relise that they cannot answer the follow-up question without answering the first, but lord, do they try. One Christian even once told me that " only the Adam was expelled because he didn't beat Eve to death for condemning the human race to the fires of hell, as he was responsible for her". Can you believe it ? 

    This is not to mention that Eve wasn't given the instruction by god NOT to eat of the tree of "knowing".  And  do you notice, that  all of this "knowing" happened in the absence of the Adam,  while the Adam wasn't even present and the Eve was  alone with the serpent lord that this "knowing "went on.

    Strange too that  pregnancy and child baring was mentioned almost immediately after the "knowing" went on. 

    16 To the woman he said,
    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
        with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
        and he will rule over you.”

     But this was all free will, according to most Christians.   It doesn't sound like "free will" if it comes with a punishment of death , now does it , Brother.

    And notice, that the - " and he will rule over you" -  comes AFTER  the "knowing" and not before.
  • Athias
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    P1: A=A. A =/= not A.
    P2: Free will stipulates that if there are two or more outcomes for a being to choose, then each outcome has a non-zero probability of happening.
    P3: God is never wrong.
    P4: God's omniscience means that He knows everything, including all future events. If He already knows the outcome, and He is never wrong, then the probability for that outcome is 1, and the probability for every other outcome is zero.
    P5: It can't be the case that an outcome has both a zero and a non-zero chance of happening. (from P1)
    C1: Therefore, free will and God's omniscience are incompatible. 
    Your first premise is fine. Your second premise is where the syllogism falls apart. "Free will" doesn't stipulate that there are two or more outcomes, where each outcome has a non-zero probability of happening. "Free will" delineates that two or more outcomes are possible (not probable) subject to the decisions of the (moral) agent. Free will is about leaving that which one can do to one's discretion, not that which one will do. God could know which decisions I'm going to make, and it still wouldn't change that I was the one who made them. Very akin to a parent who uses their own past experience to forecast some of their children's decisions. Just because they knew what would happen (which of course would be validated in retrospect) doesn't mean that their children didn't have or make the choice.
  • PGA2.0
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    --> @Stephen
    And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”  (1 Timothy 2:14)”. Get it? Huh?

       Besides, how could Adam be held culpable to sinning first  since he had not received the knowledge of right and wrong that the Tree would give him in knowing the sin scenario?! 

    The times I have posed this very question to the devout Christian and have been met with silence is  innumerable, Brother.

    And my follow up question is why was only the man expelled and not the woman? Genesis 3:23
    God created Adam first. He was the federal head. Thus, he represented Eve and us in his decision. As in Adam, all have sinned, so in Christ, all who submit to His headship shall be saved since He was without sin. What we witness are two covenant comparisons, the Old and the New.  

    This is not to mention that Eve wasn't given the instruction by god NOT to eat of the tree of "knowing".  And  do you notice, that  all of this "knowing" happened in the absence of the Adam,  while the Adam wasn't even present and the Eve was  alone with the serpent lord that this "knowing "went on.
    This is a ridiculous argument. You equate because Eve was not mentioned she was not included. God created Adam first. God told Adam that when HE ate he would surely die, and he did that day. Eve was created from Adam. The two were to be a unified one, to complement each other, but Adam was created to be the head. Thus, his decision affected Eve, and her own decision was not without consequences. 

    15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

    18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”

    The warning was given before Eve was formed. Thus, it concerned Adam but also affected Eve. Since the woman was made last God placed the woman under the headship of the man. 

    Not only this, but the serpent also singled out the woman, not the man and deceived her. 

    Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

    She disobeyed God also. She chose to eat of what God had said not to eat from.  It is reasonable to believe Adam would have relayed that message to Eve since Eve said as much to the serpent.

    And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [a]any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’

    She knew God had said not to eat of it. Thus, Adam would have likely explained it to her and he thus knew better. He knew what God had said, yet he chose to eat anyway. Since he was the one originally held accountable being made first and addressed first the judgment was placed on him for the separation from God because he was the federal head. God addressed him as such.  

    Each - the serpent, the woman and the man were given penalties.

    17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
    Cursed is the ground because of you;
    In toil you will eat of it
    All the days of your life.
    18 “Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
    And you will eat the plants of the field;
    19 By the sweat of your face
    You will eat bread,
    Till you return to the ground,
    Because from it you were taken;
    For you are dust,
    And to dust you shall return.”

    The penalty of physical death could be argued was also added to the list that day as underlined, as well as spiritual death promised by God upon eating of the fruit.

    Strange too that  pregnancy and child baring was mentioned almost immediately after the "knowing" went on. 

    16 To the woman he said,
    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
        with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
        and he will rule over you.”

     But this was all free will, according to most Christians.   It doesn't sound like "free will" if it comes with a punishment of death , now does it , Brother.
    The penalty or warning was announced by God. They both had the volition to choose which course of action they would bring upon themselves. They chose to know evil, not just the good they had experienced with God until this point in time. Evil is doing contrary to the good - doing contrary to what God has said. We find this out and witness it every day. We see the consequences of our actions and poor choices.  

    And notice, that the - " and he will rule over you" -  comes AFTER  the "knowing" and not before.
    Someone had to take the lead and the man was created first and the stronger physically of the two. The firstborn (in the biblical account) had significance for he/she was the first blessing. Responsibility was usually placed on the firstborn to look after and protect the second born. One reason could be that the firstborn has more experience of life, was physically stronger and more worldly-wise than the second born, being older.

    There are some things the man is suited to and others the woman is, some things the man was/is designed for and others the woman was/is - childbearing being one the woman was/is designed for. 

    So, like it or not, there are logical and reasonable answers to your charges.
  • Stephen
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    Stephen

    [A.] He was the federal head.   [B.] Thus, he represented Eve and us in his decision.



    A. That status of "head" as you have put came AFTER and not before. I pointed this out above. 

    "and he will rule over you.” Genesis 3:16

    B.  Stop making things up.  There is no biblical reference or evidence that Adam had, or was given any type of authority over Eve,  before  the"knowing" went on between the serpent lord and Eve in the absence of the Adam.

    Your long-winded wordy argument isn't worth the time it has taken you to write it. 




  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen

    Stephen,

    YOUR QUOTE TO PGA2.0:   "Stop making things up.  There is no biblical reference or evidence that Adam had, or was given any type of authority over Eve,  before  the"knowing" went on between the serpent lord and Eve in the absence of the Adam."

    PGA2.0 is as equally dumbfounded of the Bible as the MIA ethang5 after getting Bible Slapped Silly®️ within this thread!  Don't you love it when PGA2.0 brings forth their ever so wanting assumptions, hearsay, and subjective opinions, where not one is biblically vouchsafed?  PGA2.0 is again rewriting the scriptures in the name of Satan!  Then again, what did you expect from a Preterist that erroneous accepts that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened in AD70 which throws the whole Bible into a tail spin!

    Pseudo-christians, ya gotta love their stupidity relative to the scriptures!


    Stephen, that's right, have you seen ethang5 running past your house tearing pages from the Bible along the way, in the hopes that he can find even a modicum of verses that will counter my post # 11 above, the irony of which, would show blatant contradictions within the Bible if he did?  Did someone say "Catch-22?" I am worried because we haven't seen him of late. How long do you think it will take for ethang5 to heal from his embarrassment of not knowing his ass from a wild grape regarding the scriptures?  Jesus and I will be waiting!

    .



  • ethang5
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Perhaps you made the logical error by believing in a god.
    And when you can argue it instead of simply repeating it over and over, someone will take you more seriously than a disgruntled anti-theist infecting the religion board.