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  • christopher_best
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Thanks for that reply and clarification. I think your philosophy is one of the more compelling ones shared here. But I am wondering how your "be a doer" philosophy is compatible with the Biblical "you can't be saved apart from the Resurrection." In the Bible, it is very clear that apart from the Resurrection, our debts for sin could never be paid. 
    So in a way, all the effort you put means nothing. You will be a virtuous person if you try to follow Jesus' teachings, I think, but you will have opted out of saving if you reject the resurrection (or the idea that Jesus was God).
    So, I doubt Jesus will ask "do you believe I rose?" but I think he will ask "did you trust in me?" 

    Anyway, how would you reconcile that apparent contradiction?
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @christopher_best
    do you think they would have pursued this at the cost of their lives?

    They would only be guessing of course, and while I think Outplayz actually has a credible opinion on many spiritual topics he doesn't see the purpose of religious experience yet in his platform. Or maybe he does and just finds it a bit boring or inconsequential. There's a place for all these experiences within the universal Platform, they serve a purpose in the souls progression, but not all experiences are for every soul either. 
  • christopher_best
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    What do you mean by "platform?"
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @christopher_best
    Thanks for that reply and clarification. I think your philosophy is one of the more compelling ones shared here. But I am wondering how your "be a doer" philosophy is compatible with the Biblical "you can't be saved apart from the Resurrection."

    You'll have to provide verses or passages from Jesus' teachings so that we aren't muddling the accuracy of this topic with dogma. It's important that you are actually familiar with the Gospels if you want to have a meaningful discussion.

    Here are some verses in line with what I'm saying, these are what make the difference between gaining the Kingdom of heaven and not.

    “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
    “For whosoever shall DO the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
     "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
    "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
    "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."
    "16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

    And just so you know, Jesus isn't saying that you need to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood lol, these are analogous to the principle of application. When you "eat His flesh and drink His blood" you are applying that which he taught, in other words being a doer.

    In the Bible, it is very clear that apart from the Resurrection, our debts for sin could never be paid.

    Actually to be clear, it was His death not resurrection that paved a bridge. But again, I'm not saying there was no resurrection. 

    So in a way, all the effort you put means nothing. You will be a virtuous person if you try to follow Jesus' teachings, I think, but you will have opted out of saving if you reject the resurrection (or the idea that Jesus was God).
    So, I doubt Jesus will ask "do you believe I rose?" but I think he will ask "did you trust in me?"

    No, the effort you put into application is the only thing that can be substantial, otherwise you're doing nothing, if you do nothing what have you gained? Again, I never said to ignore or opt out of the resurrection I only say it's not important for your progression, but you have no way to verify it. The only thing that qualifies you as Christian is what you do and how you live your life. Whether or not you believe in a resurrection is immaterial, you only need to apply that which is applicable. I thought I made that pretty clear with the guitar analogy. 
    Trust comes with confidence, confidence comes through experience and experience comes through application. 

    Anyway, how would you reconcile that apparent contradiction?

    I don't think there is a contradiction in what I'm saying and the actual teachings of Jesus.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @christopher_best
    What do you mean by "platform?"

    The Platform is what Outplayz and I refer to as the original Source. Some call that Source God, but It is basically the Source out of which everything has their existence, out of which all things originate. 
    It is this omnipresent, incorporeal universal ocean of consciousness that all Gods, demi-gods, incarnation, souls, creatures and of course the multiverse are thought of and formed. 
    The Hindus call this "Brahman", same concept really....
  • Outplayz
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    --> @christopher_best
    The main question I'd ask both of you is, do you think they would have pursued this at the cost of their lives? The records show they died brutally, but continued to worship until the end. I don't think I'd die for a lie, so this is the most compelling rebuttal I can think of. 
    This is the problem with looking at something so old. There could be many reasons 1) they didn't think they would die brutally; 2) their ego made them think they were above it all if people believed them; 3) maybe they did say they were lying in the end, but since they died... the killers got to write/spread the history of it and to save face they didn't retract the lie; 4) They may have truly been deluded to their own lie by the end... etc. Those 4 came to mind right off the bat. 
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @christopher_best
    The main question I'd ask both of you is, do you think they would have pursued this at the cost of their lives? The records show they died brutally, but continued to worship until the end. I don't think I'd die for a lie, so this is the most compelling rebuttal I can think of. 
    Yes, actually. Some people would be willing to die in order to galvanize their communities. Also, they believed in an eternal afterlife.

  • zedvictor4
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    --> @fauxlaw
    I would suggest at best, logical.

    I run with certain unprovable principles just the same as you do...Though yours are perhaps somewhat more cosmetically embellished than mine.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Spirituality is gained through a physiological response to a certain stimulus....That is to say, that you create spirituality inside your own head because you wish to create spirituality inside your own head.


    And within the myth there are obvious facts and there is obvious fantasy.
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @zedvictor4
    certain unprovable principles
    Virtually all animals of the earth have 5 senses shared with humans, and some have others in addition that function as proof of earth sciences, such as echo location and earth's magnetic field, yet you deny humans of any additional senses of empiric  proof? We, the highest being on earth's evolutionary ladder, and we are restricted to five empiric proofs? Argue for your limitations; they're yours.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @PressF4Respect
    Yes, actually. Some people would be willing to die in order to galvanize their communities. Also, they believed in an eternal afterlife.

    It seems easy for you to sit here and make such a claim that someone else would be willing to die over a tall tale! I think it is a bit short sighted to believe that, there's many things to consider besides they wanted some attention for whatever fill in the blank reasons. An eternal afterlife does not make getting murdered feel better, I don't care what anyone says. And don't give me the lame example of some Muslim loser who blows himself up (along with other innocent people) in the name of his religion, these guys didn't get the luxury of dying instantaneously, rather at the hands of another authority.

    That's one way to look at it, not even to mention lying opposes the very message they wished to spread, or what their Master was teaching. Their Master had already shook up the world, resurfaced the face of religion singlehandedly, made a huge impact on the very people he interacted with, and now all the sudden they betray that reputation and integrity with a fib? Adding stories that weren't true was not necessary and just doesn't fit.
    And I'm not even saying a resurrection happened, I'm just saying that what they said fits with what they believed. If you follow the Gospels and the personality types that made up the apostles I'm not seeing people that were liars or people that needed to lie to gain some unknown reason over a fakery, Jesus had to convince the men to follow Him the way they did and that happened without Jesus making up stories so it seems His influence was sufficient as well a powerful. Even the apostle Judas who betrayed Jesus killed himself for what he did, so even the worst of the group was enthralled with the integrity and influence of Jesus. That shows me how serious they took the whole experience. So the whole lying assumption in my opinion just isn't convincing, I think there could be a better argument if one exists. They obviously believed what they were saying. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Spirituality is gained through a physiological response to a certain stimulus....That is to say, that you create spirituality inside your own head because you wish to create spirituality inside your own head.

    Unfortunately you have no way to prove that lol, ironic ain't it?
    I've given you the opportunity to understand the objective nature of spirituality, your conditioned mind won't allow you to consider it. However it doesn't really matter other than you've stunted your own progression, as you slip from this world and are present in the next you'll have the ability to observe it first hand so either way you learn now or later. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @christopher_best
    verification that Jesus is the Messiah.

    You know the term Messiah just means "expected king and deliverer" "a leader or savior". Even if a supposed resurrection never occurred Jesus would still be a Messiah, a resurrection doesn't make or break that reality. A savior is a higher spiritual being that descends from the higher worlds of creation down to the lower worlds to reach mankind, redeem mans wicked ways and show man better ways and higher ways of living. Often times the conscious state of souls battle with carnality and simple ways of thinking in the lower realms and they trap themselves in a lower state of consciousness and it takes a spiritual "savior" to come and break up that pattern of conscious awareness.
    They willingly do this as they are beings of much higher qualities to subject themselves to the torments of a carnal world when they have already progressed much further than that. Often they are killed and persecuted but they are regarded as saviors of mankind, some like Jesus actually rule over Kingdoms. They exist in the higher more elevated realms of creation thought of as heavens, which they are heavens or paradises.

    You don't need to verify a resurrection to come to the conclusion Jesus is a Messiah, Jesus is a redeemer with or without that.
    What they come to offer isn't necessarily miracles or outrageous events, rather it is the truth and quality of their teachings that are the power they convey and it is the food for the souls trapped in these worlds. These elevated ways of thinking and teachings are used to break up patterns of thinking and conditioned minds, empowering weakened emotions. They are way-showers, Jesus is indeed a Messiah but it's not because there's a claim he rose from the grave, that really has little to do with it. The power is in the way he interacted with life, the example He left and the teachings that are recorded. The power for each soul is whether or not they apply such elevated teachings and ways of thinking, so believing he rose from the grave is a nice thought but it has nothing to do with your own salvation (redeemed states of consciousness). If Jesus can elevate your ways of living and thinking then that elevates your future experiences and observations.

    To reach access to higher places of existence you must elevate the qualities of your core being, maximize them and know how to control your vessel. In other words a soul trapped in lower states of consciousness cannot exist in elevated places of creation, they are not compatible and for good reason. So when you leave this world the first thing you will notice is that many of the beings you will encounter are of much higher quality, their motives, intentions and actions correlate with where they exist.
    Jesus is an incarnation (God in the flesh) but all souls come from the very heart of the Creator, He is just a much higher being who rules an advanced Kingdom in the created worlds. But if you pay close attention to what He teaches you'll see the hidden truth that not only is He one with the Father, but potentially so are you....
    John 17
    "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

    The core of all souls including Jesus are one and the same as where they all originate. What distinguishes you from that now is your current embodiment, your thought processes, your perceptions, your emotional states, your motives and intentions but the very core and soul of you came out of the very core of God and can be nothing else. Jesus is a good path to utilize to break the molds and conditioning of lower world consciousness. It brings you back to Divine qualities. Right now, in a world like the one we are in there are endless contrasting and opposing states of consciousness. The higher you get in creation the more those states of consciousness harmonize and exist in unity (oneness). 

    This may come across as a bit unorthodox (lol) but I can expand on any of it, if it resonates with you as it should because your true origins are exactly that. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @christopher_best
    In a nutshell, what you cannot verify (or apply) is not required for you to accept or believe. You can believe anything you want of course, but the only thing required of you personally is that which is applicable to yourself. I know it may come across as if I'm opposing a resurrection but I'm not really (I don't oppose one, I just can't verify one), I'm only pointing out what is imperative. The deeper qualities of the Gospels are that which show you how to progress and improve your observations and experiences. 
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Unfortunately you have no way to prove that lol, ironic ain't it.
    No you don't do you lol, ironic ain't it.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @fauxlaw
    A good argument for Darwinian evolution...So what.

    Certainly no argument for a Christian styled god.
  • fauxlaw
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    And what if creation continues through today using natural selection as a means of propagating species? What, you think God worked for six days and retired? That's nonsense, and much of Christianity revels in it. I don't.
  • christopher_best
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    The Platform is what Outplayz and I refer to as the original Source. Some call that Source God, but It is basically the Source out of which everything has their existence, out of which all things originate. 
    Never heard of this before, interesting stuff.
  • christopher_best
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Thanks again for the detailed response!

    I'd like to share some verses to show what I mean. 


    Actually to be clear, it was His death not resurrection that paved a bridge. But again, I'm not saying there was no resurrection. 
    This is true, but only if he is the Messiah, and I doubt he can be verified to be the Messiah apart from the Resurrection. So in a way his death and Resurrection are intrinsically linked to the point I doubt one would mean much without the other. 

    Anyway, the rest of your response seems to be a fundamental difference between how we interpret the Bible. I must admit I am not as familiar with the Bible as you are, I just have about a decades worth of protestant teachings shoved in my brain. My protestant lens tells me that if you believe in the Resurrection first, the works will come. 

    It is discussions like these that make me wonder how God qualifies his followers. There are so many diverse views within the Christian label that sometimes it appears that two people are worshipping two different religions altogether. 
  • christopher_best
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Even if a supposed resurrection never occurred Jesus would still be a Messiah, a resurrection doesn't make or break that reality. 
    My line of thought is that without the Resurrection, or similar miracles, there is no objective reason to think Jesus above Muhammad or John Brown. Without the Resurrection, I'd simply consider him another moral teacher worth some time for study, but definitely not my life. 
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Sorry...I honestly didn't understand that previous post (#67)....Maybe it was hastily put together.
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @zedvictor4
    I'd say most Christians believe God created earth and heaven over six days - and some take that literally, but I don't - rested the seventh day, ergo, the Sabbath, and then retired, virtually literally. I believe God continues the work of creation today, both here and on other worlds. I think God creates continually by way of evolution, even to the point of beginning other worlds with their versions of Adam and Eve and Satan and Christ. Living eternally would otherwise be a boring prospect, and I don't think that's what He's about.
    To Christopher's point, I believe our lives continue through death and resurrection, and continued advancement until we, too, have the potential of becoming like Him, and repeating the cycle of creation ourselves. What else would our ultimate purpose be? Don't boys and girls grow up to be like their fathers and mothers. Yeah, I have a Mother in Heaven. We're a family, literally, of billions of kids.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Yep. I can actually run with a lot of that, though minus some of the human embellishments and expectations of continued existence in some sort of human form.

    I see GOD as the ultimate  accumulation of intelligence, and we are certainly a part of that process....GOD the ultimate knowledge to recreate and perpetuate the universal sequence.

    Though I doubt that the ongoing accumulation of knowledge will always be human in origin.... We have had thousands of years to accumulate our intelligence, whereas alternative intelligence gatherers have only had a few decades.....Nonetheless, you could say that in this respect we are already a  part of GOD.