Your LEAST favorite Bible Story?

Do you have any response to my post that contained that evidence?

SirAnonymous  at post #21 saying : You keep saying that these were "innocent" people or "innocent" children. However, according to the Bible, no one is innocent. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Furthermore, the Bible also says, "For the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) If we put 2 and 2 together, this means that everyone deserves death because everyone is a sinner. So if the Bible is true, then God is justified when he kills people.

Yes. It wasn't evidence.

I showed you from Scripture where God said that everyone is evil from childhood

First off and subjectively,  SirAnonymous is one fry short of a Happy Meal.

As a rule, I see a problem with looking at any ancient texts without taking into consideration the context of the time, people, language, and culture.

However, I also see a problem with looking at the Bible through the lens of inerrancy, as I believe it was a book written by quite fallible humans from quite a long time ago on the road of moral and intellectual progress.

The folks who wrote the bible were definitely fallible. But it really boils down to whether or not God exists, and actually leads, guides, and empowers weak fallible men. If God doesn't exist, then the skies the limit on how many errors would be in the Bible. If God exists, and actually did inspire the authors of scripture, and those who chose the canons, then why should I think there are errors?

Theoretically, after I pass on and meet the creator, it's possible He may tell me there's that one verse in Malachi that is wrong, and/or shouldn't be there. But why should I think any verse is wrong?

If God purposed for a written document to contain everything He wanted to convey, even if someone tried to sabotage the writings to contain error, it would most likely fail. The bible is full of attempts at defying God's plan, and inadvertently help fulfill God's plan (like Christ's crucifixion). Do you ever see those movies or tv shows where someone tries to run away from something, going the opposite direction, but ends up in the same location? In the context of Yahweh being real, it would be far more difficult to change the bible (into false literature) than writing divinely inspired words, and choosing which books should be included in the bible. Not even Thomas Jefferson could do it.

If you found out that  Yahweh exists, how would you view the fallible/infallible biblical issue? Do you think God would allow for scriptural error?

What I mean by contemporary view is exactly how Ludo, and many others view the text. They read it as a group of  little children mocking Elisha's lack of hair. Elisha gets offended because he's sensitive about it, throws a tantrum, commands 2 bears to come out and slaughter the little culprits.

Your understanding is correct,

although I'll point out that more than likely Elisha's life was in danger. So verbal insults was not the only issue at play here.

It is interesting that you think this means Abraham knew God would prevent the sacrifice, as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews seems to think it meant Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead after Abraham had gone through with it and sacrificed him (Hebrews 11:17-19). Of course, that is a Christian perspective and I remind myself that Christians did not write Genesis.

Oh I know. Maybe a better way to put it would be prevention of Isaac's death.

But I don't think that passage in Hebrews eliminates the possibility that Abraham didn't assume he would have to plunge the knife into him.

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

So for the sake of argument I will ask this: If Abraham knew God wouldn't let him go through with it, was it really a test? Was the angel really justified in declaring "Now I know you fear God"?

Yes. An example of this would be Peter who knew Jesus was the Son of God, had seen His miracles, etc. But, fear gripped him when he tried walking on water. The disciples had seen miracles, but were still inhibited in their faith when facing a large group of hungry people, with just a few fish and loaves of bread. Faith doesn't end with finding God. There's still the calling. If God told you to face a lion, and it will flee, you still have to face a 500 lbs. beast face to face. When a believer finds God, their calling is revealed

sometime after. The calling is usually something desirable, but impossible on our own ability. It's tough because we have to rely on God to see it through. If you found God today, you may find you're called to sing. You may say that singing karaoke is fun, but that's as far as you would ever go. You don't have to worry about forgetting your lines, talking in between songs to the audience, etc. So within your own strength, you can stick with karaoke, sing as you read along, and get a nice round of applause. But if you were called to sing in concert settings, you'd have to go on faith that God will enable you. So all that to say that yes, it was an act of faith for Abraham to take his son up the mountain because he still had to deal with the physical appearance of danger to his son.

In addition, there's even a possibility that the instruction didn't even come directly from God, as the Hebrew word for God in this text includes people in authority. Human sacrifice was common practice back then, and the instruction may have come from an authoritarian taken as a word/command from God. This was before an Israelite nation, so God was not yet perceived as the God of the Jews. Truthfully, I don't know if the command came directly from God, or authoritarians (and I'm comfortable either way), but imagine all the wasted hoopla over this subject if the command in this text came from perceived oracle's of God?

This is indeed interesting. To my knowledge, the text uses the two terms Elohim and Yahweh. Are you then referring to Elohim, which I know was sometimes used to refer to kings and profits (authorities)?

Yes.

I admit the Old Testament God does often come across as mean-spirited to me, but this does not strike me as unusual for the period at all. The gods of this time were very often fierce, brutal, and warlike. We are talking about a tribal people living very close to the edge of survival, constantly subjected to violence and warfare with other tribes, totally at the mercy of pestilence and nature. What we go through always shapes what we believe. What else can we realistically expect? They wanted a strong, fierce god who rewarded blind loyalty, favored only them, and rained wrath and destruction upon their enemies. Much later Jews, the ones who became the early Christians, wanted a different sort of God (a much better one, imo - ahem) and wrote a very different testament (a much better one, imo - ahem).

Yes, but they weren't masochists. They wanted a god like all the other nations. It was common for nations to embrace a national god, and erecting a statue of their god. That was the appeal of the golden calf. That was supposed to be the equivalent of Dagon, Bael, etc. They didn't want a God that would hold them accountable for their lifestyle.

The OT might appear mean-spirited, but so does "Scared Straight", which has been proven quite effective. The OT places a lot of emphasis on the judgments of peoples. If the OT were a fictional novel, the author would have placed a lot of emphasis on the crimes that brought on the judgments. But because the bible contains testimonies, it throws people off who assume it's fiction because fictional writers focus on qualifying it's heroes with details, whereas people who give testimonies present simply bare facts. In a court of law, that's all the judge is interested in ("just the facts ma'am" - Joe Friday).

Eh, the bish incident really turned me off the site for a while.

i still miss Bish.

I showed you from Scripture where God said that everyone is evil from childhood and the the punishment for evil is death

Great question - I'll try to answer this in your other thread about this topic, in the interests of keeping the discussion here on the subject of controversial biblical stories (and keeping my posts 1 mile long instead of 6 miles long).

Oh. No, I took it more like "This man is blessed and chosen of God. Beware."

I should probably add that I do think tearing dozens of kids apart via bear is a super harsh punishment even for just insulting God.

(Your words.)

I didn't really read any clear mortal danger to Elisha in the text, personally.

It seems at least 42 youths were there, which is rather a lot - I know I would've been worried, if I wasn't a prophet who had God's protection. But they don't appear to do anything more than jeer - in the KJV "Go up, thou bald head!" and in the NIV "Get out of here, baldy!" It sounds to me like they were just trying to run Elisha off.

Out of curiosity, what level of spiritual authority do you ascribe to Paul's epistles?

This is where I would need to defer to experts about the correct translation. "Elohim" has a range of meanings in the Bible and it's for Hebrew translators to figure out which meaning is appropriate in the context.

I know you're comfortable either way, but would you like the story more if it wasn't God who asked Abraham to kill Isaac? How would that change your takeaway?

Aw, come on, Rod. You know Jesus's teachings were better, more effective, and more emotionally resonant than the unenlightened harshness found in the OT. His philosophy of love, compassion, understanding, nonviolence, and forgiveness was a tremendous course correction. He was, to be frank, the spiritual superior of the OT.

Nope.  You showed me a few psalms supposedly written by a man with something on his conscience i.e the outpourings of King David. This does not amount to evidence that god condemned all children to death for sin as much as you wish it to be so.

What absolute claptrap. You need to learn how to read your bible.

I was going to ask you why what I said is claptrap, but, to your credit, you explained in a post to TradeSecret.

That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba? 

 So this is Davids opinion and belief.

Yes and no. Yes, it is David's opinion and belief, but it is not just David's opinion and belief.

2 Peter 1:19 - 21

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (emphasis mine).

The biblical writers were human, but, according to the Bible, God spoke through them. So while David wrote those words, they are God's words as well. But since you want it "from the Almighty Himself," I will oblige you. Let's start in Genesis 3.

Genesis 3:17-19

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

    through painful toil you will eat food from it

    all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

    and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

    you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

    since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

    and to dust you will return.”

While this is spoken directly to Adam, this curse applies to the whole human race. How do I know this? It's simple, really. I know this because everyone dies, not just Adam. Here's what the Bible says about this curse.

Romans 5:12-21

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It's clear from this passage that the curse in Genesis 3 applies to everyone. Let's move on to another place where God Himself once again declares that everyone deserves death.

Genesis 6:11-13

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Notice who God is saying deserves death in this passage. "I am going to put an end to all people." That includes children. Here's what God says just after the flood.

Genesis 8:21

21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood."

Here you have it from the Lord Himself that everyone is evil from childhood. It would seem that that isn't just David's opinion after all. According to God Himself, everyone is evil. Everyone is under the curse of death.

Did you miss my post where I quoted what God said in Genesis? In case you didn't see it the first time...

Genesis 3:17-19

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

    through painful toil you will eat food from it

    all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

    and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

    you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

    since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

    and to dust you will return.”

While this is spoken directly to Adam, this curse applies to the whole human race. How do I know this? It's simple, really. I know this because everyone dies, not just Adam.

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.  Did you read that part?

Yes I read it.  It appears that god cannot make up his mind. Either the  ground was cursed since Adam and still is,  yet  since Noah the ground is no more cursed since he smelled meat cooking. Which one is it.

It is interesting that you chose the word "children" when  most bibles including the KJV use the word -  youth -  and not child or infant or baby.

But either way and what ever the exact word used, this simply does not prove your claim that God himself condemned all children to death for sin.

What absolute claptrap. You need to learn how to read your bible.

I was going to ask you why what I said is claptrap, but, to your credit, you explained in a post to TradeSecret.

That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba? 

 So this is Davids opinion and belief.

Yes and no. Yes, it is David's opinion and belief, but it is not just David's opinion and belief.

2 Peter 1:19 - 21

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (emphasis mine).

The biblical writers were human, but, according to the Bible, God spoke through them. So while David wrote those words, they are God's words as well.

Yes I read it.  It appears that god cannot make up his mind. Either the  ground was cursed since Adam and still is,  yet  since Noah the ground is no more cursed since he smelled meat cooking. Which one is it.

The first one. 

OK and how in your mind does this cursing of the ground show god condemning all children to death for sin. 

It doesn't. In fact, the curse on the ground is totally irrelevant here.