Can you tell the difference between these definitions?

Author: Mopac

Posts

Total: 267
#31
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@Mopac
"It is simply The Truth. It speaks for itself."

Well, whenever "The Truth" wants to speak up for itself, it can create an account here and do so. In the meantime, I'm talking with you.

"You profess to believe in physics. You know what energy is. What happens to the whole universe if there is no energy?"

Well, with no energy there could be no matter, so there wouldn't be a universe. So you're saying God is simply all of the energy of the universe?

"But it goes deeper than that even. The Ultimate Reality has all authority."

You see, this, is the thing I keep trying to get out. You keep trying to make it as if God is simply truth and the universe, but when it gets down to it, there is a deeper level here. It's that deeper level I'm trying to get you to explain.

What does it mean for the ultimately reality to have "authority?" To me, "authority" is a man-made social construct. Outside of that context, I don't see that anything in the universe has authority. Also, what definition includes this requirement?
Topic's author
#32
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@drafterman
Authority is not simply a man made construct.

As I said, if something doesn't exist in Truth, it is nonexistent.




#33
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@Mopac
"Authority is not simply a man made construct."

Explain. Where does it come from?

"As I said, if something doesn't exist in Truth, it is nonexistent."

This seems like a bare assertion. I don't accept it. Why is that "stupid"?
Topic's author
#34
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
How deaf and blind do you have to be in order to argue against The Ultimate Reality?

These are truly a lost and superstitious people.

Topic's author
#35
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@drafterman
I won't be able to convince you of anything, it appears to me that you lack good sense.


#36
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
Mopac the Dictionary Preacher has failed. His clam is God is truth and truth is God. The dictionary does not support this claim.

Truth

- the quality or state of being true.
- that which is true or in accordance with fact
- a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

God

- the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
- an adored, admired, or influential person.

Therefore, God is not truth and truth is not God.

The Dictionary Preacher has failed.

#37
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@Mopac
I haven't been "arguing" against anything. I've been asking you questions. If you can't explain yourself, then you are a poor preacher.
Topic's author
#38
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@drafterman
You don't believe the "bare assertion" that if something doesn't exist in truth is is nonexistent.

You are using the type of argument that only makes sense if you take the word "truth" as being interchangeable with anything else. You talk to me as if you don't understand what I'm saying.


You lack good sense. My choice of words are not arbitrary. They have meaning. If something doesn't truly exist, it is non existent. This is not an extraordinary statement, and neither is anything else I have been saying.

And we have talked at great length before, so I can plainly see that you lack good sense. I think you are delusional, and it is because you don't love the truth. You are, after all, even now, disputing the obvious. What is there to explain? You want me to keep talking so you can trap me in my words.


And when it comes right down to it, neither of you God deniers are really debating against me, you are debating against God. It should be obvious. I am not presenting myself, I am presenting The Truth.

What it comes down to is that this is a heart issue, and I am not going to be able to help you through this. The only thing that will get you through this is God, and that will only happen if you want it. You don't want it, so you get nothing. You want miracles. You will get none, you will only get a warning.


#39
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@Mopac
You don't believe the "bare assertion" that if something doesn't exist in truth is is nonexistent.
Truth, with a capital "T". That is different from truth, with a lowercase "t". Let's not make the mistake of equivocation. Based on our previous conversations, you have explained that the Truth is more than just the truth, so you can't hot swap them like this in the middle of a conversation.

If something doesn't truly exist, it is non existent.
I'll agree with that. I'm not sure what that has to do with the fundamental power of the universe, though.

What is there to explain?
Oh, easy:

1. Why is it stupid to not believe in a "supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality"
2. What is the "fundamental power to all reality"?
3. What does the lack of a "fundamental power to all reality" mean there could be no reality?
4. What does it mean for "The Ultimate Reality" to have "all authority."
5. How does "The Truth" relate to "The Ultimate Reality?" Are they synonyms. Different phrases that mean the exact same thing?

And when it comes right down to it, neither of you God deniers are really debating against me, you are debating against God. It should be obvious. I am not presenting myself, I am presenting The Truth.
No. I'm debating against you. You're the one sitting on the other side of a screen typing back at me. When God and/or The Truth want to step in, they are free to do so. Until they do so, it's just you and me.


Topic's author
#40
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@drafterman
The Truth is the truth in the truest sense of what that means. I never said that The Truth is not the same as the truth, I said the truth is not the same as a truth.

It's the difference between a relative truth and the eternal truth. The difference between contingent reality and the reality that all is contingent on.


So if you'd like to reformulate your questions with the understanding that I mean exactly what I am saying instead of you interpreting "The Truth" to mean something other than the truth.

You act like I'm speaking in code, but what I am saying is and has always been very simple and lucid. I have made plain everything I am saying.

Don't kid yourself. Your debate is against God, not me. I am not representing a position of my own, I am representing one thing, and one thing only. The Truth. You can't tell the difference between me and The Truth. Making me wrong is no feat at all. I will openly tell you that I am wrong. Making me wrong is a waste of time.

Though I may be wrong, God is right, and the one you are arguing against is God, not me. I am not your mediator. I can't think for you. Don't make this about me. I only say one thing...

THE TRUTH. Yes, I mean The Ultimate Reality when I say that, and you are adopting a foolish position if you take that to be anything other than what it is, and deny the clear and manifest authority and power it has over EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS AND IS REAL.

and you argue with that. It's ridiculous. I can't make it any clearer. When I say The Truth, I mean The Truth in the truest sense of what that means.

So wiping me away, and everything having to do with me...


What is your problem with The Truth?






#41
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
The Truth is the truth in the truest sense of what that means.
I don't know what that means.

It's the difference between a relative truth and the eternal truth. The difference between contingent reality and the reality that all is contingent on.
What is "the reality that all is contingent on?"

Don't kid yourself. Your debate is against God, not me.
I'm talking to you. You are responding to me. So it looks like this is between you and me. If God wants to step in, he's free to do so.

Don't make this about me.
All I see is you, buddy. I don't really care if you are the originator or not of this position. You're repeating it, so I'll put you to the task of explaining it. If you can't, then I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish.

the clear and manifest authority and power it has over EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS AND IS REAL.
I don't know what that is.

and you argue with that. It's ridiculous. I can't make it any clearer. When I say The Truth, I mean The Truth in the truest sense of what that means.
I'm not arguing against it. I'm telling you I don't know what it means. Saying that it is what it is and isn't what it isn't doesn't actually make it any clearer.

What is your problem with The Truth?
Tell me what "The Truth" is without being circular in a way that I can understand and I'll let you know if I have any problems and what those are.
#42
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
And when it comes right down to it, neither of you God deniers are really debating against me, you are debating against God.

That is a very obvious lie. If we were debating God, we wouldn't be talking to you.

Of course, you've been refuted and shown to be wrong about God and truth, which you have ignored in favor of creating a lie. Lying is the only way you can make a point. Your God is going to be very angry at you for lying in his name. A fiery pit of eternal flame awaits you.
#43
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Stick to the story. No mention of ultimate reality for Shen/God. Your argument fails.
Topic's author
#44
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
Tao

Topic's author
#45
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
The only atheist argument is to turn God into god. 
#46
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
The dictionary preacher has surrendered.
Topic's author
#47
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
All you got are straw men. You are deserving of mockery.

Ignoring what makes you wrong doesn't make you right.


The concept of God with a capital "G" in Chinese is The Tao.

The concept of god with a lower case "g" in Chinese is shen.

I already explaines this was an English problem. You don't have this problem in every language.

Like in Arabic

Big G God = Allah

Little g god = illah

Your argument is simply being ignorant and sticking to your guns.




#48
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Upper or lower case doesn't change the definition, it's simply a language convention. Read the definition I gave for Shen, not something you want to fabricate. God=god, there is no difference.
Topic's author
#49
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
Lol

#50
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Ywhw is a god. Zeus is a God. So Zeus is the ultimate reality, great argument.
Topic's author
#51
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
Lol
#52
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
Your argument is simply being ignorant and sticking to your guns.

Mopac the Dictionary Preacher has failed. His clam is God is truth and truth is God. The dictionary does not support this claim.

Truth

- the quality or state of being true.
- that which is true or in accordance with fact
- a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

God

- the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
- an adored, admired, or influential person.

Therefore, God is not truth and truth is not God.

The Dictionary Preacher has failed.

Topic's author
#53
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Goldtop
Ignoring what makes you wrong does not make you right.

You are very wrong.


And I'm not really a dictionary preacher, but few things demonstrate the arbitrariness of the atheist more than the dictionary.


#54
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
You are very wrong.
You have asserted that, but have not demonstrated that. I have demonstrated you were wrong about God being truth.

And I'm not really a dictionary preacher, but few things demonstrate the arbitrariness of the atheist more than the dictionary.
The dictionary has clearly shown YOU were wrong about God and truth. Here, you can read it again to see how wrong you were...

Truth

- the quality or state of being true.
- that which is true or in accordance with fact
- a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

God

- the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
- an adored, admired, or influential person.

Therefore, God is not truth and truth is not God.

Topic's author
#55
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Goldtop
It would be redundant. Challenge me to a debate if you are so confident in your fallacies.
#56
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
Lame excuse, your assertions have already been shown false. You can read the dictionary definitions here...

Truth

- the quality or state of being true.
- that which is true or in accordance with fact
- a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

God

- the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
- a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
- an adored, admired, or influential person.

Therefore, God is not truth and truth is not God.

If you cann't show this to be wrong, then we have established that you have no argument.


#57
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@janesix
The point I am making is it is silly to say something exists because it is in the dictionary. 

Yeah but that is not the point I was making, you have to evaluate the contents of any given definition and whether or not it contains something worth looking into that reflects reality. 


The God concept is more common, but there is still little proof of either.

Is there "little" proof for the God concept? doesn't that depend on the type of proof or evidence that correlates with the concept? I don't think there is "little" proof and evidence for God, not even close but it depends on what you wish to look at as "evidence" or "proof".

Proof-
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

There is plenty of the above to establish the concept of God as existing, so I don't think gnomes is a sufficient comparison.  
#58
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
Testimonial "evidence" is all you have for God. It's all you have for gnomes. It is not evidence.


#59
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
EtrnlVw says...

you have to evaluate the contents of any given definition and whether or not it contains something worth looking into that reflects reality. 
The definition below of the term "Consciousness" reflects reality.

  1. the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
    "she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"
    • the awareness or perception of something by a person.
      plural noun: consciousnesses
      "her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"
    • the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.
      "consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain"
it depends on what you wish to look at as "evidence" or "proof".
Hard evidence, which is required to validate the existence of something. Testimonials are worthless without hard evidence.

Proof-
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
There is plenty of the above to establish the concept of God as existing, so I don't think gnomes is a sufficient comparison.  
There is no evidence to establish fact or truth for the existence of God. You keep failing at this every time you repeat it.
#60
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@janesix
Testimonial evidence is all that correlates with the nature of spirituality, however the evidence far surpasses that of gnomes. Physical evidence is needed for gnomes due to the description of them, which is easily dismissed and debunked. Again, NOT a sufficient comparison.