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@Goldtop
Personal experience. And the solar system looks created to me.
Futile
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156
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@Goldtop
I know theology. You don't respect it as a legitimate field. The Truth is God. You say otherwise because you are ignorant. You don't have a case.
So fumble all you want, I'm not budging because I KNOW BETTER.
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@janesix
Sure. A god could be like: "I only want people who find gods in mathematical formula to know about me" (not sure what that has to do with intelligence, but hey).
But if this is your belief, why are you arguing with Atheists to begin with? A god will be known by only the people it wants to know it exists, whether or not you argue.
Then again, maybe the god wants to be known only be the people who are swayed by your arguments, which would make them not futile, wouldn't it?
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@janesix
That's assuming it wants to be known to everyone.
We already know the result of God revealing himself to only a few; conflict, wars, many religions, etc.
An omnipotent being wouldn't be so dumb as to not figure that out in the first place. Even us puny humans understand that.
put's it's signature in a mathematics formula
Why? Where? How? Which formula?
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@Mopac
You don't have a case.
Of course I have a case, I am using YOUR standards of the authority of the dictionary.
The dictionary shows you are wrong.
You obviously don't know better.
Here is the case, try and refute it. You can't.
Truth does not have God in the definition, God does not have truth in the definition. God is not truth, truth is not God.
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@janesix
We've already discarded personal experience because you have no way to show you're not mistaken, lying or delusional.
Please explain how you believe the solar system was created by God as opposed to the scientific explanations based on the laws of nature? This will also require you to explain the need for a solar system? The need for planets? The need for a Sun? A Moon? Etc.
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@drafterman
Sure. A god could be like: "I only want people who find gods in mathematical formula to know about me" (not sure what that has to do with intelligence, but hey).
But if this is your belief, why are you arguing with Atheists to begin with? A god will be known by only the people it wants to know it exists, whether or not you argue.
It's not really my belief. I am working through what my beliefs are right now.
Then again, maybe the god wants to be known only be the people who are swayed by your arguments, which would make them not futile, wouldn't it?
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@Goldtop
It's hypothetical, goldtop
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@Goldtop
We've already discarded personal experience because you have no way to show you're not mistaken, lying or delusional.
You have, I haven't.
Please explain how you believe the solar system was created by God as opposed to the scientific explanations based on the laws of nature? This will also require you to explain the need for a solar system? The need for planets? The need for a Sun? A Moon? Etc.
I look at the solar system and it doesn't look natural or accidental.
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@janesix
Even a hypothetical requires information, knowledge and very often an observation in order to hypothesize. What knowledge, information or observation have you considered that would cause you to hypothesize? This knowledge of course would need to have a logical path from one to the other. Can you offer such a thing?
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@Goldtop
Really?? You think I know anything about mathematics? It is purely hypothetical.
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@janesix
Then, that decision is not based on anything logical or reasonable, it is something that you personally want as opposed to what's real. So yes, it has to be discarded.You have, I haven't.
I look at the solar system and it doesn't look natural or accidental.
Yet, it is quite natural, it has formed exactly as it should have formed based on the knowledge and information we have, which is based on observations of other solar systems that are at various stages in their formations. All of it agrees completely with the laws of nature.
Clearly then, you are not looking at the solar system with information, but instead through ignorance of the information, or once again, this is something you want to believe as opposed to what is real.
Again, we go back to honesty, that your beliefs in this regard can't be distinguished from being mistaken, lying or delusional.
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@janesix
Really?? You think I know anything about mathematics? It is purely hypothetical.
So, sheer guesswork, like grasping at straws, tossing anything into the air and hoping it floats no matter how ridiculous? That's not how reasonable people understand things.
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@Goldtop
You can discard what You want, i certainly won't.
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@janesix
No one is demanding you be honest with yourself, it's simply a common denominator when discussing such things.
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@Goldtop
Everyone is entitled to their opinion Goldtop, including you.
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@janesix
How did you try?
I went to a quiet place, meditated, opened my mind, and listened.
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@janesix
That's true, but if your opinions are merely things you want as opposed to how things are, then they aren't honest opinions, are they.
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@Castin
how long did you meditate for? just once? for weeks or months?
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@Goldtop
How do you know what I WANT?
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@janesix
How do you know what I WANT?
You state them here on these forums. You want there to be a God, you want solar systems to be created by God. These are things you've made clear that you want.
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@Goldtop
You are lying again goldie. show me the quotes where I said anything like that.
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@janesix
Ok. Well, realty can't be contrary to a god's wishes. So people will come to know him according to whatever that god's desires are. How you fit into that scheme would require you to know the mind of that god.
So, argue, preach, convince, or don't, because whatever you are doing is consistent with god.
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@janesix
It's in your entire narrative. You said yourself you won't honestly discard your experiences, that you look at the solar system and believe it was created by God, that it doesn't look natural, despite the scientific explanations. These are all things you want as opposed to what's real.
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@drafterman
We have free will.
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@janesix
No we don't.
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@Goldtop
Are you my psychiatrist now? You seem to know a lot about what I want.
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@drafterman
why do you think that?
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@janesix
What makes you think God wants to be known?
Funny you should ask that. He certainly didn’t want Moses to know his name did he. When Moses asked him his name he told him ‘never you mind about my name’ and to mind his own business and to get on and do as he had been bid .. more or less.
And amen does mean – invisible - from my own understanding. So it appears that this god wanted to remain incognito and unseen at least for the time being.
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@janesix
how long did you meditate for? just once? for weeks or months?
Maybe once or twice a week, for a period of a few months. Then life swept in and carried me away, and I regret to say I didn't meditate a whole lot after that. I still only meditate infrequently.