The fundamental problem with capitalism (as described by Bo Burnham

Author: secularmerlin

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Lemming
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@secularmerlin

If it were a community of people possessing mental frailty and illness, I would simply remark upon it with no criticism,
Ok what about a community socially/economically disadvantaged people?
If Diagnosis could be a philosopher, If the Rome could grow to a nation from a single city, If Japan could equal the West and decimate the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War.
I'd hold out hope for a socially and economically disadvantaged people.

I think individuals and groups should have a sense of responsibility for how they confront existence, no matter what it is.
Yes but not for how existence confronts them.
Yes, it 'would be bizarre, quite recognized as unjust of me to say that the Okies during the Dust Bowl deserved their fates, or that people laid off during Depressions deserved their fates, that someone sexually assaulted deserved their fate, or that victims of the Holocaust deserved their fate.
Be horrible to say, and perhaps what I've already said is horrible.
. . .
But I like Ego, I like Narcissism, I like Pride, Self Worth.
I like the idea of my fate being in my own hands. . . And so I focus on such an idea, I grow fond of philosophies which espouse it. I enjoy writing crude poetry regarding it. I like looking at my life that way.

I've had a far better life than most, though it's still not all I would like, and I've had parts I've hated or feel shame in.
So I can hardly soapbox this as though I'm an authority, or 'know anything.
But still I have opinions.
And I like talking, now and then.

Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.
I can relate to that feeling right now. 

What's happening in life with you?

secularmerlin
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@Lemming
If Diagnosis could be a philosopher, If the Rome could grow to a nation from a single city, If Japan could equal the West and decimate the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War.
I'd hold out hope for a socially and economically disadvantaged people.
Non sequitur. None of these examples gives us a long term solution to systemic poverty. 
I like the idea of my fate being in my own hands
I like that idea too. The problem is that I don't think we have any evidence that this is the case.
Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.
I can relate to that feeling right now. 

What's happening in life with you?
This conversation. 
Lemming
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@secularmerlin
Non sequitur. None of these examples gives us a long term solution to systemic poverty. 
I forget what a Non sequitur is, one Google search later, ah.
They are appeals to emotion, though I don't see that as a bad thing.
They are not solutions to systematic poverty, though I do see them as hope, or reason for individuals and groups to 'try.

I like the idea of my fate being in my own hands
I like that idea too. The problem is that I don't think we have any evidence that this is the case.
The practical nature of it exists, I would argue.
The appearance of it exists, I would argue.

Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.
I can relate to that feeling right now. 

What's happening in life with you?
This conversation. 
So be it.
secularmerlin
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I like the idea of my fate being in my own hands
I like that idea too. The problem is that I don't think we have any evidence that this is the case.
The practical nature of it exists, I would argue.
The appearance of it exists, I would argue.
A mirage "appears" to exist also. In fact that is the primary characteristic of a mirage.
Lemming
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@secularmerlin
Sigh, I do so dislike the conversation of free will.
Hm, let me see, Anton Chigurh, Macbeth. . .
No, something else. ..
. . .
. . .
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.
Thus not hurting others, their own self worth, or incurring prison time.
That is a beneficial outcome of the 'mirage, whilst a mirage in a desert results in naught but dehydration.

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@Lemming
Non sequitur. None of these examples gives us a long term solution to systemic poverty. 
I forget what a Non sequitur is, one Google search later, ah.
They are appeals to emotion, though I don't see that as a bad thing.
They are non sequitur in that they do nothing to logically support the idea that ALL individuals are responsible for their own economic and socio political realities. Could the average citizen of Japan effect the outcome of the war? Is it the fault of the average Russian citizen that they lost the war?

Is it not true that the cities and nations that rome conquered did not want or choose to be concuered?
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@Lemming
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.
Thus not hurting others, their own self worth, or incurring prison time.
In what way does determining the course of action least likely to incur negative consequences equate to choice? Freewill is unnecessary when planning ones day. Only an awareness of more than one possible course of action and an understanding of the likely consequences of said course.
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@secularmerlin
They are non sequitur in that they do nothing to logically support the idea that ALL individuals are responsible for their own economic and socio political realities. Could the average citizen of Japan effect the outcome of the war? Is it the fault of the average Russian citizen that they lost the war?

Is it not true that the cities and nations that rome conquered did not want or choose to be concuered?
Citizens are part of a whole.
I speak of Rome, to describe how the small can become great.




Lemming
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@secularmerlin
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.
Thus not hurting others, their own self worth, or incurring prison time.
In what way does determining the course of action least likely to incur negative consequences equate to choice? Freewill is unnecessary when planning ones day. Only an awareness of more than one possible course of action and an understanding of the likely consequences of said course.
And so the foolish brute hammers away at friends and families, not even considering the idea of himself having control, or will over his own actions. . .




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@Lemming
I speak of Rome, to describe how the small can become great.
Great is a subjective term that is useless without some context and by its very nature excludes all examples from being great since you must have a small to contrast against. Otherwise great becomes merely average. Everyone cannot be great therefore even if everyone strived simultaneously for greatness some will not reach this goal. The problem with a meritocracy is that the onus for not being great enough is placed on the individual rather than simply being recognized as the mathematical necessity that it actually is.
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@Lemming
Control =/= choice

Will =/= freedom. 
Lemming
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@secularmerlin
I think that most people would get the gist of it.
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@Lemming
Again the problem with a meritocracy is that the onus for not being great enough is placed on the individual rather than simply being recognized as the mathematical necessity that it actually is.
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@3RU7AL
Did my comment mention an increaser? No, I do not suggest it. Your reading comprehension suggests you have come of age in a period of declining educational success, in favor of cultivating your feelings about subjects rather than a solid understanding of the subjects; your feelings be damned. However, know, as well, that in the time since the industrial revolution, our population has increased two-fold; a factor you cannot ignore. So, has the rate of accidents increased, or merely the number of them? I leave it t you to figure that out; I am not your tutor.
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@secularmerlin
It is an oversimplification but it illustrates one of capitalism's largest weaknesses in regards to promoting human welbeing.

I guess that's the biggest weakness of capitalism, but isn't it a little narrowminded? Let's just say that a decline in rape did lead to a decline in rape whistle sales, and now the whistle makers finds themselves "not wanting to reduce rape" so they could sell whistles. Why not just sell something else as opposed to wish for rape? I mean I get the underlying criticism, but in both theory and in practice capitalists are often venture capitalists and make money by investing in other businesses and things . Do you know any very rich people that don't have STOCK and shares in the market for other businesses, or who don't own property which meets the demand of others they rent/sell to, etc? In other words the whistle maker should not "wish for rape" per se but instead invest in other things society may want or need. Maybe  they can invest in Ring cameras to deter burglaries as well. Maybe they can invest in companies that make mace or knives. Maybe they can slightly change their business model and invest in music whistles instead. The point is I feel like the criticism is valid but is not so damning of capitalism that it somehow makes capitalism a less useful tool. It has flaws just like every other operating system but it's still one of the best :) 
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@Danielle
Why not just sell something else as opposed to wish for rape?
Indeed why not sell something other than cigarettes rather than actively adding to the rate at which humans develop lung cancer and pulmonary disease. Why not sell something other than crude oil if burning it is contributing to a planetside disaster?

Your idealism is touching but not grounded in reality.
Danielle
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@secularmerlin
Indeed why not sell something other than cigarettes rather than actively adding to the rate at which humans develop lung cancer and pulmonary disease. Why not sell something other than crude oil if burning it is contributing to a planetside disaster?
Re: oil, it's been found that implementing a lot of Green initiatives often have equal or similarly harmful negative effects on the environment (i.e. mining lithium for electric cars).  It's also been found that there is a market for Green products, so capitalism has encouraged the development of new technologies and other things. But I'm  not denying the harms of industry on the environment, or the fact that we sell harmful things to people. I'm just presenting a different perspective for the sake of conversation.

Cigarettes can be harmful but they also provide pleasure and therefore satiate demand. There is a cost-benefit analysis to everything. I get the moral concern is whether or not sellers are ethically responsible for promoting something harmful, but I tend to value personal responsibility (I know that gets tricky and there are many influences on our choices). I just think it could lead down a slippery slope otherwise. 

People get heart disease from sugar - are bakers evil for selling you delicious cakes? Social media addiction and high use in society has many problems we're discovering as time goes on - should we ban Facebook? Generally society has taken the approach of regulating things that can be harmful, including cigarettes and gas emissions. That seems to be the best approach vs. the alternative of outright bans.

And of course we see a ton of cigarette smoking and gas emissions from China which is not a "capitalist" country per se. I just mean countries with other economic systems can also find the selfish motives of humanity utilize different ways and economic systems to achieve those self-interested ends. 


Your idealism is touching but not grounded in reality.

To be clear I'm not being idealistic - I was throwing ideas back at you to see if we could muse further.  That's how dialog works. I tend to agree that this is a problem of capitalism; I just dgaf insofar as there are flaws and problems with every system. 


secularmerlin
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@Danielle
Well I don't think we are in fundamental disagreement unless we care to become pedantic over this issue.

3RU7AL
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@Danielle
Re: oil, it's been found that implementing a lot of Green initiatives often have equal or similarly harmful negative effects on the environment (i.e. mining lithium for electric cars).
WE MUST DEMAND THORIUM REACTORS.
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@Danielle
People get heart disease from sugar - are bakers evil for selling you delicious cakes?
It might be "evil" for our tax dollars to be leveraged in order to subsidize the sugar industry.
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@Lemming
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.
Determinism (indeterminism) removes blame from the individual.

This frees you to overlook any "personal" insult or apparent neglect.

There is no "reason" to become angry with "others" when you realize, "they're really and truly already doing the best they possibly can".
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@Lemming
And so the foolish brute hammers away at friends and families, not even considering the idea of himself having control, or will over his own actions. . .
If you blame others for your own misery, you are making them more powerful than yourself.
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@3RU7AL
It might be "evil" for our tax dollars to be leveraged in order to subsidize the sugar industry.

Eh, that's a stretch and a stretch from the original question as well. I wonder: is the government evil for subsidizing Big Oil so poor people can have heat?
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@Danielle
Eh, that's a stretch and a stretch from the original question as well. I wonder: is the government evil for subsidizing Big Oil so poor people can have heat?
Are you conflating luxury with necessity?
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@3RU7AL
Are you conflating luxury with necessity?


Oil is the cheapest way to provide heat but it's not the only way. Furthermore transportation is arguably a necessity, so if necessities justify oil subsidies you could make a case for why people need to move around. 

I asked if bakers were evil for supplying delicious cake. Are you saying it's only evil if government helps the bakers? 





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@Danielle
I asked if bakers were evil for supplying delicious cake. Are you saying it's only evil if government helps the bakers? 
We're not talking about "helping bakers".

The government subsidizes the production of sugar (corn syrup).

This really begs the question of what you believe the role of government should be.

Do you believe the production of a luxurious poison should be a primary goal of public funds?
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@Danielle
Oil is the cheapest way to provide heat but it's not the only way. Furthermore transportation is arguably a necessity, so if necessities justify oil subsidies you could make a case for why people need to move around. 
Do you believe it's more efficient to give subsidies to international mega-corporations (MOBSTER CON-ARTISTS), or would it perhaps be a more efficient use of resources to instead give that exact same subsidy to, let's say, the bottom 50% of income earners?
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@Danielle
Well 3RU7AL decided to get pedantic about it. Good luck he is a much more skilled interlocutor and logician than I am.
Danielle
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@3RU7AL
I said: People get heart disease from sugar - are bakers evil for selling you delicious cakes?

You replied with: It might be "evil" for our tax dollars to be leveraged in order to subsidize the sugar industry.

I wasn't talking about  subsidies nor what they incentivize. I was asking (in response to cigarette sellers selling something potentially harmful) if bakers selling something potentially harmful also made them evil. You replied with a red herring about government. I didn't give an opinion on what I thought the role of government should be and I never said that a luxurious poison should be subsidized. I was asking about the role of personal responsibility in the market and remarking that almost everything has cost-benefits. 

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@secularmerlin
Well 3RU7AL decided to get pedantic about it. Good luck he is a much more skilled interlocutor and logician than I am.

He's just replied to me with a bunch of fallacies for reasons that remain unclear. I don't need luck but thanks :)