Transgender - Discussion/Education

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Let's see what we have; just give your opinion, let's start with some facts, hm?

Transgender - "An adjective that isan umbrella term used to describethe full range of people whosegender identity and/or genderrole do not conform to what istypically associated with their sexassigned at birth. While the term“transgender” is commonlyaccepted, not all TGNC peopleself‐identify as transgender."

Gender - "refers to the attitudes,feelings, and behaviors that a givenculture associates with a person’sbiological sex. Behavior that iscompatible with cultural expectationsis referred to as gender-normative;behaviors that are viewed asincompatible with these expectationsconstitute gender non-conformity."

Sex - "refers to a person’s biologicalstatus and is typically categorized asmale, female, or intersex (i.e., atypicalcombinations of features that usuallydistinguish male from female). Thereare a number of indicators ofbiological sex, including sexchromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia" 

This should clear up a common misconception, no, sex and gender do not refer to the same thing. As such any arguments using or referring to the definition of sex as a stand-in for gender is inherently a strawman and fallacious. 

Here's a little introductory information for those new to the concept, explained in better words than I could write: 

"People who defy gender norms have existed in every culture throughout time. However, the term “transgender” is relatively new, dating to the mid-1990s. Often, transgender people are not well understood by the general population. It is useful to think of the word “transgender” as an umbrella term that encompasses a number of people who live substantial portions of their lives expressing an innate sense of gender other than their sex assigned at birth. This includes transsexuals, cross-dressers and people who feel like their biological sex fails to reflect their true gender. People who do not identify as transgender can be called “cisgender,” meaning that they identify with the sex assigned at birth.

Some transgender people report feeling that they were born in the wrong body. For this reason, some transgender people choose to have surgery to take the physical form of their desired sex. This person is sometimes called a post-operative transsexual. Someone can also be pre-operative, or can choose never to have surgery (in this case, she or he might be known as “non-op”). Hormones are used to promote secondary sex characteristics, such as breast tissue or facial hair. Often, the word “transitioning” is used to describe the period of moving away from one’s assigned sex. Physical transitioning may describe surgical, hormonal, or other changes to one’s body. Socially transitioning may describe legally changing one’s name, asking friends to use a chosen pronoun, and other acts of disclosure.

If specifying that someone is trans is necessary (although it usually isn’t), the following terminology should be used: someone who formerly identified as a woman and who now identifies as a man is known as a FTM (female-to-male) transsexual, a trans man, or a transgender man. Likewise, someone who formerly identified as a man and who now identifies as a woman may be labeled a MTF (male-to-female) transsexual, a trans woman, or a transgender woman. It is extremely important to remember that MTF people are women, just as FTM people are men.

Addressing transgender people the way they prefer to be addressed (including chosen name and preferred pronouns) demonstrates respect. Some transgender individuals may choose to use gender-neutral pronouns, such as “ze/hir/hirs,” as in the sentence “That book is hirs. Ze brought hir favorite book.” Other pronouns are in use; the best way to find out someone’s preferred pronoun is to simply ask.

Transgender people may identify as lesbian, bisexual, gay, heterosexual, or some other sexual orientation. Having experienced discrimination, prejudice, oppression, fear and shame, they share commonalties with LGB people. Like LGB people, transgender individuals should not have to hide who they are in order to have safe and satisfying lives."

For those of you who want a first-hand explanation of being transgender


Keith Reynolds, 18, student, Surrey

A lot of people have it in their head that we wake up and decide to be trans. I want people to know that it’s not a choice. Nothing has happened in my life to make me trans. I was born trans. I told my mum when I was about 13. She was shocked and didn’t really understand. Then six months later she told my dad and he was so angry. I love my dad but he was a very traditional person. There was a lot of tension. I couldn’t wear men’s clothing, or I couldn’t wear men’s deodorant – it would cause an argument.

It started to get better, but then Dad got cancer. He died a week before I turned 16. When he got sick we didn’t talk about it any more. I thought that once he had recovered we’d go back to talking about it, but he didn’t recover. After my dad died I found a book about transgender young people and I gave it to my mum. She read it and it was a complete change. She says her main thing and also my dad’s main thing is they were worried about how it will affect me in life – will I be able to find a job, will I be able to find a partner. Well, those things have happened: I’ve found a partner, I have no trouble finding jobs.

My mum is fantastic, she’s really proud of me. She comes to Transgender Pride with me, if anybody says anything bad about me being trans she’s ready to hammer them. She makes me the envy of many trans people, I think. I was referred to Tavistock [the clinic for children and adolescents] in May 2014. You’re not allowed testosterone until you’ve been on hormone blockers for a year at Tavistock. But I was 16 at my first appointment and had already gone through puberty, and knew that by the time I had done a year on blockers I’d be picked up by the adult clinics. I decided not to go on hormone blockers, because it wouldn’t really do much for me. I was referred to an adult clinic in May 2015.

I still haven’t had an appointment, which means I haven’t had any medical intervention in three years. I’m desperate for hormones and surgery. My dysphoria makes me feel like I’m embarrassed for people to look at me. In my head I’m this weird thing that is ugly. I have to wear baggy clothes to hide my hips, I have to think about how many layers I have to wear to hide my chest. I really understand that the NHS is overstretched because there’s a sudden influx of people being referred. I completely understand why, but that doesn’t stop the frustration.


Surat-Shaan Knan, 40s, project manager for Liberal Judaism, London

I didn’t really know anything about gender identity until quite late, when I was in my mid-20s. I also come from a secular Jewish family, so I didn’t know much about what it means to be Jewish either. I identify as non-binary, trans-masculine. Being trans and Jewish seemed a complete oxymoron. I thought, it can’t be, I have to decide between them. But I had this wonderful community here to give me all that space and time to come out.

I feel very blessed that everyone, including family and friends, have been extremely supportive throughout. I haven’t had to go through what many trans people have to go through.
Years ago when I came out I went to the wall [Western Wall in Jerusalem]. There are three sections – the male section, the female section and an ungendered section. Now I would probably go to the ungendered section, but it was my first time presenting as male in such a holy place and I went to the male section of the wall. It made me so happy to do that, to go to the part of the wall I wanted to. I was transitioning medically and spiritually and it was one of the most important moments of my life.

A Jewish online magazine reported on that and it sparked off online, I got really abusive messages. I thought, these people don’t know me, I don’t think anyone should be able to tell you who you are and how to live your life. Yourself is yourself, even in the religious community. A lot of people from mainstream trans communities ask me, how can you be a person of faith, because even your own religion has been so horrible to LGBT people in general and trans people specifically? That’s true. But it’s about what faith means and leaving out what some leaders and institutions do with it.

In the media, the focus is often on the pathology and medical transitioning and that’s a big part of it, but there are so many layers of what it means to be trans. It’s almost like trans people are one-dimensional, they are just these people who need medical help. I do hope we will change our view on what trans looks like. It’s not just something on the outside, it’s something that’s very deep and spiritual. We are created in the image of God. I am part of that as a trans Jew.

Thank you all for your time and attention, I'm not here to argue (though I will if needed) I'm here to present information and resources to learn more. If any trans individual has anything to correct, or one simply more informed on the subject overall, I'd be glad to have the correction. Please be kind to one another in this thread, there is no need for ad hominem and such here. 

Additional Resources:

fauxlaw
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@Theweakeredge
Regardless how you may define transgender, gender, or sex, isolate the two gametes produced by the human species, are male and female. How you then arrive at more numerous genders is not genetic science, short of mutation, which is still an evolutionary anomaly, or that of behavior, or we would see gametes of multiple genders. But, we don't. Ergo, mutation, or behavior are your causes, but it is not the intention of genetic science.
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@fauxlaw
Gender and Sex are two separate things.  Get your facts correct. You are basing your evidence on expressions of sex, which still isn't as clear cut as you make it considering intersex individuals. Not to mention, no sources mentioned, here is how you can come to more than male or female sexes. Which is a different thing than gender anyway.


And it matters how you define gender, because it is psychologically defined as a societal construct. 
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@Theweakeredge
Fine, replace all my references [after reference to your definitions] of "gender" with "sex." Does not change my argument. By the way, according to Mods, sourcing is not an absolute necessity, even in debate, and certainly not in forum, being merely a discussion of ideas, and not debate. You may wish to debate that, but I already have, and lost, claiming the necessity of sourcing. I didn't bother =just to see if you would object. Noted, but, you may show me a non-mutated, other-than-male-or-female gamete
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@fauxlaw
My point  - was that the idea of being transgender is the gender of the person changing, not the sex, they are two separate terms. My point was that an argument using expressions of sex is not correlative with gender. Besides that - you have made a claim, one claiming the impossibility of something as well, thus sources are required to fulfill your BoP. The mods can be wrong. They are only people.
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Well different sexes are mutations, but genders aren’t. We basically have a spectrum between male and female, maybe something even looking like a political compass for genders. Still three dots for sex.
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I am against anyone who says “transgender male” is a gender. A female-to-male trans person is male alright, and Juice will probably say that he’s a female. “Immigrated American Citizen” is not anywhere on the nationalities record because it isn’t.
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@Juice
If one, upon transition, is still the previous gender, then I say a Chinese-born US citizen is Chinese in nationality, or that a Monarchy-to-democracy country still practices monarchy politically, despite none of these are true.
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@Juice
Saying “I want to be a pilot” 1,000 times is easy, becoming one is hard. Changing your gender thousands of times is harder than you think and using it as a concern is absurd. If one’s gender is constant: only inconsistent with the sex, then it is unrealistic for him to change more than 2 times.
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@Intelligence_06
Exactly! Thank you, that's such a good analogy, would you mind if I use a couple of them?
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@Intelligence_06
Saying “I want to be a panda” 1,000 times is easy, becoming one is hard. Changing your species thousands of times is harder than you think and using it as a concern is absurd. If one’s species is constant: only inconsistent with the species, then it is unrealistic for him to change more than 2 times.

It's quite a good analogy but it doesn't account for one wanting to change their species. 

In order for you to find a good analogy, it needs to be one which only accounts for GENDER but not for my species. By your logic, I can change my species. The difference between being a piolet and being a man is that one has intrinsic value and the other doesn't. Anyone can be a piolet if they trained, but I cannot be a man if I wish, just like how I cannot be a panda if I wish. 
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@Intelligence_06
I am against anyone who says “transgender male” is a gender. A female-to-male trans person is male alright, and Juice will probably say that he’s a female. “Immigrated American Citizen” is not anywhere on the nationalities record because it isn’t.
There's a difference. Saying you are an American Citizen doesn't change your biological ethnicity. Saying your a women while your a man does. Saying you are an American man while you are a biological Chinese would be incorrect, just like calling a trans man a man. 

A male to female individual is still a male, just like how I am a human even though I go through surgery to look like a panda. 


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Is there anyone here who agrees with me? Or am I the only conservative around here. 
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@Juice
We are talking about gender here, and not about changing that gender, but changing your body to match that predisposed gender. The problem is, people will always assume the gender of a person matches their sex as expressed as their genitalia.  You are confused about the difference between sex and gender, which I explained above. 
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@Juice
MisterChris, Fauxlaw, TheUnderdog, etc, etc
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@Theweakeredge
Yes. You can chose to credit me if you feel like to.
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@Juice
Exactly. You stubbed your own toe. With your own logic no one upon their right mind would change their sex thousands of times, as a result it is no longer a regular concern.
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@Juice
You have your mind like a panda, your body look like one, everything of a panda. But nope: you are a human. In what planet does this make all the sense?
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@Juice
Your argument is based on the incompetence of technology. Let’s say if I have a machine that can turn any male into females, completely, then would that female still be a male despite everything she has gone through?

I am not even going only psychological. If one transitioned but is not acknowledged, then why is that? 

If changing gender is as easy as changing sex, then you would see more trans people fitting to their own body. But no, why? Their mind is harder to change than their body, and it will be harder and harder, to the point where one can transfuse one’s memory into another’s.
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@Juice
Ah yeah, even if calling a trans male a male is wrong( which is not), it reduces suicide.
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@Theweakeredge
Is there a BoP in the Forum? I see no verbiage in the Forum Help Center stipulating the necessity of BoP. This is an opinion discussion. You want to debate, go to Debate. Don't get me wrong, I support sourcing claims. I told you I didn't cite sources just to push your buttons. Evidently, they were pushed.
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@Juice
I agree with your argument. As it is said, if wishes were fishes... I find there is a grand barrier between what is belief, and claimed, and what is truth, and claimed. I fear there are too many who, like Hidin' Biden, think facts and truth are different concepts, just because they say they are.  For example, Biden may claim until cows come home that he has never favored the elimination of fracking, but I've seen and heard at least 3 different videos of him saying exactly that. The media claims he once said he was not Joe Biden, in an apology for his allegegly saying Joe would "beat" Joe Biden. His not being Joe Biden is a worse condition than him beating Joe Biden because one must wonder, then, if he is not Joe Biden now, who will be the President if he is elected? Kammie Harris? Actually, I believe that is exactly the case, within two months.
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@fauxlaw
When I say "BoP" i don't mean anything referring to a debate, I mean this as something you have to do in general whenever you make a claim. Whenever you make a positive assertion, you have the "burden" so to speak to provide evidence of said assertion. Not doing so means one can dismiss your claim as unsupported. Again, I don't care what the mods say here, as they can be incorrect

Whatever the case, there has been no refutation to my earlier argument, or that sex and gender referred to different things, gender not even being a binary, and sex not what we were discussing. There's a reason the term, "Transexual" is regarded as not usable, and that's because it was not accurate to what was happening. Transgender is. Do you see the distinction? I don't use opinions to justify arguments. I use arguments and facts to justify my opinions. 
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@fauxlaw
I will not report or anything like that, but I would please ask you to keep the forum on subject. I think there are entire other topics on Joe Biden, and you can discuss him there.
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@Theweakeredge
You may begin a thread on a specific subject, but you cannot impose your will on posting variable information on your thread separate from your original post. So, if you wish, report away. You have the right to be offended. You do not have the right to censure based on your offense. Get it? That's the unwritten consequence of the 1A. Sorry to burst you bubble. Argue for your limitation; they're yours. And there are three kinds of people: make things happen, watch what happens, wonder what happened. The third group is... never mind. I hope I'm preaching to the choir.
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@fauxlaw
Everything you've said is.... frankly... ridiculous. You see - when there is an actual place that is suited for a conversation, that place should be used instead of another place. Sure it possible and even easy to teach a math class in a computer lab, but the lab is best used for a class using computers such as graphic arts, computer science, etc.. I don't care about getting offended, and anything you would say to me would be something I've heard from genuinely malicious people. Not to say I'm a big tough bad boy, I'm very much not, I'm just used to being insulted

My point - is that we already disagree with the topic at hand, and you haven't addressed my points from earlier. So why not just- address them? Something? It's like you get bored of talking about a subject randomly and move on to something else that is completely off-topic.  I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just asking you not to. Is that so bad? Politely asking you to stop talking about a thing in a forum for something completely separate and when there is already a topic made specifically about the off topic thing that you brought up.


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@Theweakeredge
Thanks for this great introduction! It’ll be helpful to a lot of people.

Just wait till we get to the advanced stuff, like the fact that sex is ALSO a social construct <3
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Who is the most confident leftie on this topic? I am quite confident on my stand that men are men and will be willing to debate someone who is as confident. 
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@Kbub530
Of course! Anything I can do to help the community as an activist is something I'll do, I consider this place a community, and thus- here I am. 

Ooh, sex as a social construct? That sounds intriguing, any introductory sources you would recommend me to check out on the topic?
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@Juice
I'll debate you. Yes a trans male is a male, thank you for the concession