Transgender - Discussion/Education

Author: Theweakeredge

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SirAnonymous
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@Juice
There are people who agree with you. In fact, there have been complaints that the politics subforum is dominated by conservatives. ILikePie5, Greyparrot, bmdrocks, Chris, fauxlaw, TheUnderdog are some of the conservatives you'll see. I'm also a conservative who agrees with you that men can't be woman and vice versa, although I'm trying to stay out of comment and forum wars (but I keep getting into them because I'm dumb).
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@SirAnonymous
No comment wars necessary, just explain your position, and I'll explain why it's wrong

JK, I'll engage it though. I'm trying not to be confrontational here, just explaining a lot of misconceptions. I kind of doubt people actually read the beginning text, as it actually refutes the two people's arguments already.
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@Theweakeredge
No comment wars necessary, just explain your position, and I'll explain why it's wrong
I should probably have specified that I'm trying to stay out of forum and comment arguments in general, not just the wars.
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@SirAnonymous
Ah, that was confrontational, I updated the comment afterwards. 

I wasn't trying to be arrogant or anything, I made a joke and I realized people here would take it seriously. Are you interested in debating anyone?
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@Theweakeredge
This is a really short. Basically, there are a bunch of things the make us decide whether a sex is “male” or “female” or “intersex” and they often contradict. 

Suppose someone has XX chromosomes, but has every male phenotypical characteristic from jawline to beard to hormones to penis, such as in the case of XX Male Syndrome? Socially and practically they are male—the only way someone would be able to claim differently is if they had some of his cells and microscope that could identify his chromosomes. Is he biologically male or female?

What about, in contrast, females with high testosterone? The Olympic committee has flirted with banning certain females based on their hormone levels—regardless of primary or secondary sex characteristics.

Or consider genitalia. There is actually a penis-to-clitoris continuum—the same parts develop differently. So what length defines a penis, what length a clitoris, and what length ambiguous genitalia? How we classify genitalia, in each case, is based on sociomedical convention. 

These cases point to the larger truth—male and female are social constructs. We live with bodies—how we define them is political and conventional and sometimes contradictory. Life is much messier than the classification system we offer them.

So, say I have a penis. What makes it a “penis” as opposed to a “clit?” Hint: both are words. The answer is social convention. That does NOT mean that anything goes—words still have meaning. But it is important that society created those meanings—they were not handed down from on high.

Now come the question of gender. Say I have accepted that my penis is indeed a penis—say that it is an uncontroversial length. Now, comes the question of whether that penis is masculine or feminine. What defines the feminine body? Do all females have to conform to feminine beauty standards? Who is to say how womanhood is defined? Thus, many trans women would say that their bodies both ARE and HAVE ALWAYS BEEN feminine. That is because they are asserting the definition of their body politically. 

So, the discussion comes to politics. Am I “a female who looks male” or “a male who thinks he’s female”?  I can’t really persuade you that I am really am female, as this is a political and cultural designation. I can cite a bunch of experts, but that just shows the experts’ standpoint. What is needed is compassion, faith, open mindedness, respect, ethics, and decolonial thinking. What is needed is a whole change of perspective, as well as policy changes to back that up. That’s the only way I know that we will ever be accepted.
SirAnonymous
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@Theweakeredge
I wasn't trying to be arrogant or anything, I made a joke and I realized people here would take it seriously.
Gotcha. As the resident member who likes to pretend he's funny, I know all about that.
Are you interested in debating anyone?
Not really. Debates and arguments are draining and time consuming for me.
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@Kbub530
That was fascinating! Definitely, I'll have to look more into, but essentially:

The lines between what sex is expressed by which characteristics are blurry, contradictory, and sometimes even arbitrary? That the standard we do use is one that is constructed by society, and not fundamental to sex itself?

That's my understanding, again, a very interesting subject and an aspiring psychology major, hopefully, something I can research more in-depth later. 
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@Theweakeredge
Yep, sounds like you’ve got it!

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@Theweakeredge
We are talking about gender here, and not about changing that gender, but changing your body to match that predisposed gender.
I fully understand your differentiation of sex and gender. Thank God we're not also facing cross-species claims of gender, let alone sex. Maybe that exists out there, but it is not prevalent. My argument is only that trying to define by gender what a person is, and that the claim is based on behavioral, social conditions rather than genetic science, albeit considering the potential for mutation [which ties to the argument of gametes not presenting as the several gender choices. The further problem is that some trans who go to the extreme of sex change [altering the birth-cis]  does not alter, no matter how hard it is tried, the birth-cis, when I think they think it does. So, in the end, I do not understand the rationale of a socially, behavioral claim that constitutes gender, and I would like to understand the rationale.
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@fauxlaw
The differentiation is the rationale. What you constitute as sex, is actually known as gender. Are you asking why the distinction exists? Because there is a distinction.  If you simply don't understand how someone could feel this way, not saying you are, that is an appeal to ignorance

The distinction itself, the first post by me, explained the rationale. Literally. It also linked to several websites and resources for people to educate themselves, I will explain it again and link the sources once more. 

Society has distinct views on how people of each sex should behave, for example; a traditional expectation of a woman is to have her be a take care of the children and let the stereotypical "man of the house" do the labour, this would be a gender role or a role assigned to a gender arbitrarily. This is one aspect of why gender is different from sex, which is debatable as arbitrary in its own right, the second would be the actual identity of the person involved. Do they feel their body is actually descriptive of how they feel with regards to gender? With transgender, they do not conform to the arbitrary sex that was assigned based on assumed genitalia at birth. The last big one would probably be your body itself. Does the person fit within this body? Etc.. Essentially this describes the last feature but in more terms more to the people. Gender Dysphoria is commonly the reasons for the unfamiliarity as much as my previously explained position. 


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@fauxlaw
Thank God we're not also facing cross-species claims of gender, let alone sex. Maybe that exists out there, but it is not prevalent.
You know, as someone who is invested in animal ethics as well as gender ethics, I find this a fascinating subject. The main problem is that we cannot know how animals self-define, so we cannot know whether they politically identify as a particular gender or not. What we can establish is whether some animals behave atypically for their sex, which happens often. Perhaps we could make a connection to gender roles? I know you said you didn’t want to talk about it lol just thought I’d share some initial thoughts.

Regardless how you may define transgender, gender, or sex, isolate the two gametes produced by the human species, are male and female. How you then arrive at more numerous genders is not genetic science, short of mutation, which is still an evolutionary anomaly, or that of behavior, or we would see gametes of multiple genders. But, we don't. Ergo, mutation, or behavior are your causes, but it is not the intention of genetic science.

A fascinating argument and a good point. However, let’s consider how many both males and females cannot reproduce. How do we define their gender? It can get a little complicated physically, emotionally, biologically, politically, culturally, and historically. We transgender people are not trying to attack or get rid of genetic science—we actually believe in it! We just offer a bit of a different perspective on it. 
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@Juice
Of course men are men. Trans men are men. Is there any problem there?
Juice
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@Intelligence_06
Of course, we have a different definition of men and women. I assume you would believe a white man who is convinced they are black would be biologically black when they perform blackface then? I assume if a 3 year old said they wanted to be a transformer, then you would stick on some metal limbs and say they legally identify as a robot? I assume if a furry was convinced they are a fox, then they would be a fox after applying some makeup?

I'm quite surprised there are people who disagree with me because I consider myself quite rational. I came to my conclusion after listening to talks and lectures and was convinced by facts. Why don't you watch some Ben Shapiro? If you want someone less aggressive, then watch Jordan Peterson. If you want to be offended watch some Milo. 
fauxlaw
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What you constitute as sex, is actually known as gender
Then it is you who does not understand me, because I claim that sex is determined by the result of the union of a makle and female gametes, and that gametes have only those designations but by mutation. That is not a function of society, or behavior choice, both of which you define as gender. I understand your distinction, but then you confuse societal choice with what is sex. 

If you simply don't understand how someone could feel this way, not saying you are, that is an appeal to ignorance
That claim, my friend, is self-serving gratuitous nonsense. Did I not say I am seeking to understand? Yes, I did. You do not turn that into "appeal for ignorance." The ignorance is facing your mirror, not mine, my friend. Get that straight.

different from sex, which is debatable as arbitrary 
.Wrong, again. Sex is not a mater of arbitrary choice. It is two gametes, male and female, or one or both as mutations. Either way, it is pure, genetic combination, not arbitrary choice. It does not help that you confuse sex and gender.

 they do not conform to the arbitrary sex that was assigned based on assumed genitalia at birth. 
Still wrong, again, for the same reason as immediately above. Nothing is assumed by sex, but it is of gender. Your own source, [1] in your post #40 says as much: "...many who identify as transgender do not feel they are exclusively masculine or feminine. [An emotional choice, not bases on sex [cis], but on behavioral preferernce].
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@Juice
If a white person painted himself black or had qualities enough to determine that one is black, then he is. If the boy can be treated as a transformer by the people, then he is one. A trans man can be treated as a man by the society. You don’t rule, the society does. You are not the monarch, we are in a democracy.
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@Kbub530
That there are some people who are unable to reproduce, for biological, or behavioral considerations [yes, some people only think they have limitations where the physical characteristics show no limitation of procreation], has no tie to which sex they physically demonstrate by exterior observation, by sexual identity via DNA, and  by internal sexual structure and hormonal distribution. Note I've said nothing regarding behavioral influence. In that regard the issue of identity has little science, but lots of theory. Until the body of knowledge increases, frankly, we are guessing.
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@Intelligence_06
So if a biological Chinese painted himself white (You can't say this is racist as this is exactly what trans folks are doing), is he biologically white? You can call yourself American. You can act like an American. Everyone in the world can call you an America, but that doesn't change the fact that you are not biologically an American


I just want to clear up the fact that I would call a trans man a man, but will not acknowledge them as a BIOLOGICAL male. 
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@Juice
So if a biological Chinese painted himself white (You can't say this is racist as this is exactly what trans folks are doing), is he biologically white?
No, the same way saying "I am a woman" doesn't automatically make you a woman. However, just because there is a failed attempt doesn't mean there is no successful attempt. If he change his DNA just enough his skin appears whiter and his genes are related more to Caucasians, then he is then biologically white. Just because "I say I am a woman" doesn't mean I am a woman doesn't mean, even if after transfuse attempts, behavioral changes, and psychological aids, the man is really indistinguishable to and from the average woman, then this "man" is a woman, alright.

I just want to clear up the fact that I would call a trans man a man, but will not acknowledge them as a BIOLOGICAL male. 
See, that is concession. Transgender trans gender and Transgender trans not sex. There is no case yet, due to our incompetence as a body of science, so that a trans female mind would be fused with a brain of a biological female, vice versa. However, if a transgender individual managed to become his/her/their preferred sex, then you would be walking home with loads of cash ending up in his/her/their hand.

It is theoretically possible, and just because there is no case yet doesn't falsify its correctness. I agree that none of transgender folks are truly, in the sense of sex, their preferred sex, but don't worry, as that the world is becoming more liberal and more advanced, such an example would emerge sooner or later.

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@Juice
Let's say, the UK shall we? Nations are basically social(and essentially political) constructs, just like genders, which we agree. The UK is now a constitutional monarchy(or Ceremonial monarchy) in which the head of the state is no longer first-hand the decider of political events. Queen Elizabeth is not seen doing politics and is overall just a powerful noble, but she is rightfully the head of state.

This is different from back then where monarchy is absolute and the King(or queen) has the power of the now-average prime minister. Calling the UK an absolute monarchy would be wrong.

How about China? From 4,000BC China is basically feudalism from then to about 500BC, and then absolute monarchy until 1912, then imperialism, then communism, then Market Socialism. Calling the People's Republic of China a monarchy or an empire would be wrong.

A "woman" can essentially transform enough that it is a man. Calling something it was but isn't is essentially wrong. Just because in all examples now you might be correct doesn't mean you always will be.
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@Juice
Mis gendering is wrong nevertheless. If you want your right to call him whatever you want it would be unfair to him.

Hey old man, you get that?

Hey girl, do you think you are winning now?

Hey grandpa, why do you think calling people by your preference, not theirs, is still better than vice versa?
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@Kbub530
Upon the arrival of the third page, we invite a transgender individual to argue in favour of transgenderism.
Juice
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@Intelligence_06
That's never a good idea. 
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@Juice
Why not? Well I can think that she'd be against your idea. What other reasons are there?
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@Intelligence_06
Would you ask an illegal immigrant about migration? Would you ask a Barcelona fan about which team is the best? Would you ask a patriotic American which country is the best? 

The fact that one is transgender means they suffer from a mental illness therefore making them unsuitable to be questioned. A trans individaul FEELS like transitioning is the best thing for them but it is not, as studies have shown. It's like if you take a person who wishes to be a kangaroo and asked them what they wanted, they would say they wanted to be a kangaroo. They would want snuggery. Is that the best thing for them? No. Is it what they want? Well, yes. 
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@Juice
No, I am not asking her if transgenderism is good. I know that she knows it is good. I am asking her for arguments supporting transgenderism.

I would ask a Barcelona fan about why it is so good, or a Furry why being an animal is good, even if I don't believe in them. Asking someone who tried in these shoes is more authentic, more "Primary source", than asking someone who just looked at it and said it is a piece of shit.
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@Intelligence_06
Well what about my kangaroo example. 

It's like if you take a person who wishes to be a kangaroo and asked them what they wanted, they would say they wanted to be a kangaroo. They would want snuggery. Is that the best thing for them? No. Is it what they want? Well, yes. 
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@Juice
How do you, a person who never experienced such feeling for one second, have the right to dictate what’s good for that person?
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@Intelligence_06
You've avoided my question skilfully. Also, it's not good for them because they are committing suicide at higher rates than American slaves, even post transitioning. 
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I think that the issue is that transphobes come into the argument ready to prove transgenders wrong, rather than to understand their struggle.

There are no people struggling with wanting to become a panda bear or kangaroo because there are no hormones or brain abnormalities that can cause a DNA-based or hormone-based motive to want to become that. The culture thing is supported by leftists far more than right-ists.

Left-wingers support someone who is Caucasian claiming full Kenyan citizenship if they were born and bred there, especially (and vice versa they support 'native Kenyan blacks' to gain US citizenship especially if they were born and bred in US).

I am unsure where the confusion is or comparisons are being made but as someone who sees a lot more hypocrisy and ignorant 'you can't decide to become this or think this way' than just transgenderism, I am not surprised that irrational prejudice and ridiculous analogies are the basis of their arguments.

Masculinity vs femininity is a genuine, DNA+hormone nature AND nurture based thing that people alter throughout their life and don't all have the same baseline of. A very masculine female is functioning with many traits, preferences and habits that are masculine and would prefer to be called 'he' not because gender isn't binary but in fact because 'she' doesn't naturally suit her typically assigned gender role, instead suiting the other one. Some people are just as masculine as they are feminine and suit a gender fluid 'they'. This is something that isn't hard to grasp if you appreciate that they aren't going out of their way to be prima donnas, they genuinely are hormonally, genetically and psychologically structured to suit a gender different to the one that's typically associated with theirs at birth.

Not all female-sex beings are more feminine than they are masculine. Professionals in the fields of science is the most prominent place to find sex-based females who blatantly are masculine in almost every way other than big muscles. Professionals in the fields such as fashion and in fact all the arts are the most likely place to find sex-based males who gender-wise are feminine in many regards.
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The differentiation between sex & gender is arbitrary and recently fabricated/pushed by feminists. They have been synonymous terms for the vast majority of history, and changing the definitions now is stupid. There is no sociological, biological, historical, or philosophical justification whatsoever.

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5][6] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3]

In other contexts, including some areas of the social sciences, gender includes sex or replaces it.[1][2] For instance, in non-human animal research, gender is commonly used to refer to the biological sex of the animals.[2] This change in the meaning of gender can be traced to the 1980s. In 1993, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) started to use gender instead of sex.[7] Later, in 2011, the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."[8]
There is no basis for there being a "742nd gender" or any number other than 2. Tell me, how many genders are there? How do we differentiate between which genders are real and which are fake? Do animals have multiple genders? It doesn't look like it. What about early humans in the caves, do you think they were "Transvestylvite attack helicopters?" If there is truly a distinction, it should be clear & evident throughout history (by the way, before you even mention ancient societies with "3rd/4th genders," they are massive outliers. And even within those societies, there was no basis for those 3rd/4th genders... It was all akin to religious belief.)

The idea of many genders violates Hitchen's razor, Occam's razor, & many others not mentioned.
As RationalWiki states:
“some assertions demand that the universe be screaming with supporting evidence, so when that evidence is not actually observed, it counts against it. The idea is often, but fallaciously, summarized as "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."

We have two genders that we can define by objective terms. Let's stick with those, thank you. So under reason, even if there are differentiations between sex and gender, they are practically synonymous when it comes to utility. 

The real question is: why ignore all principles of honest intellectualism and abandon it for pure feminist hogwash? Where is the social utility? It seems to me that it just serves as an outlet for people who otherwise feel "overlooked" or "insecure" to try to feel different, special. Deep down, I don't think they legitimately believe they are a "transvestylvite attack helicopter." But it was never really about their gender in the first place.

Maybe we should address a clear and evident root problem (mental health) instead of endorsing the fruits of said problem. 

As for transgenderism, if your gender is rooted in your chromosomes (as has been commonly maintained for millenia, but only recently arbitrarily convinced otherwise by feminists), then you can chop off your penis all you want but you will never become a female. Once again, the root cause (gender dysphoria) is being ignored in favor of endorsing the fruits of the problem (gender changes). I suppose you could call it "therapy," but it is obviously a bad one. One that requires everyone to play pretend and be intellectually dishonest while suicide rates of transgenders skyrocket, especially after they've had their change surgery. Maybe we'd be better off providing therapy for the condition that does not worsen it. A good therapist does not take someone who is delusional and convince them that their delusions are real. 

This isn't rocket science, and it should be non-controversial. I have no idea why stating the obvious thing that everyone is thinking is "Extremist and fascist," but I will probably be called so in the comments.

NOTE: if I don't respond to your reply, I probably didn't see it as anything consequential