Is god real?

Author: Theweakeredge

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This is the big mistake heterodox Christians make. They debate with nihilists. I don't debate with nihilists, because it is much easier to expose the stupidity of their position by getting to the root of it

Heterodox Christians trying to prop God up with reason is what created atheism to begin with. God is not contingent on reason, rather, there is no reason without God.
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It's simple


The Ultimate Reality is God.


There is no argument that stands against this God, rather those who make the attempt are exposed as fools.

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@Mopac
You haven't demonstrated that, nor refuted my points
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@Theweakeredge
You don't have any points. You are simply being incredulous.

You have no argument.

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@Theweakeredge
I will present you the following account from scripture that in no ambiguous way identifies God as The Truth.
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Now King Darius put on a great banquet for all his subjects, for his entire household, and for all the nobles of Media and Persia. He also invited all the satraps, commanders, and governors under him throughout the one hundred and twenty seven provinces extending from India to Ethiopia. They ate and drank, and when they were satisfied they returned home. As for King Darius, he returned to his bed chamber and slept, but awoke.

Then the three young men who were attending the king as bodyguards said one to the other, "Let each of us speak one strong saying, and whichever saying of ours seems to be the strongest, King Darius will give him great gifts and a feast in his honor. He will be dressed in purple, drink from gold cups, ad sleep in a gold bed. He will have a chariot with a gold-studded bridle, a turban of fine linen, and a gold necklace around his neck. Because of his wisdom he will sit second to Darius and will be addressed as kinsman of Darius."

So each one then wrote down his saying, sealed it, and placed it under the pillow of King Darius. THey said, "When the king awakens, they will give the writings to him ad the one whose saying the king and the three nobles of Persia may judge the wisest, the victory shall be given to him, as it is written."

The first one wrote, "Wine is the strongest." The second wrote, "The king is the strongest." The third wrote, "Women are the strongest, but above all things the truth conquers."

So when the king was awakened, he took the writings the gave to him, and he read them. Then he sent forth and invited all the nobles of Persia and Media and the Satraps, commanders, governors, and highest officials. e took his place in the seat of judgement, and the writings were read in their presence. He said, "Call the young men, and they will clarify their sayings." so they were summoned and came in. They said to them, "Interpret for us the sayings you wrote."

So the first, who spoke about the strength of wine, began and said thus: "Men, how is wine the strongest? It leads astray the mind of all who drink it. It makes a single mind of both the king and the orphan, of the servant and the freeman, and of the poor man and the rich man. It turns every mind to feasting and gladness, and it does not remember any pain or any debt. Wine makes all hearts rich, does not remember a king or satrap, and makes everyone talk in big money terms. When men drink, they do not remember to act as a friend to friends, and after a short while they draw swords. But when they become sober, they do not remember what they did. O me, is not wine the strongest because it forces us to do such things?" SO he spoke in this way and then became silent.

Then the second, who talked about the strength of the king, began to speak: "O men, has not man prevailed on land and sea, becoming the master of them and everything in them? But the king is strong and rules over these, for he is their master; whatever he commands them they obey. If he commands one to make war on the other, they do it. If he sends them out against enemies, they go and subdue mountains, walls, and towers. They kill and are killed, but the word of the king is not transgressed. If they conquer, they bring everything to the king- whatever they forage or anything else. But those who do not serve as soldiers nor wage war, but cultivate the land, they too bring to the king whatever they sow and harvest. They also compel one another to pay taxes to the king. Although he is only one man, yet if he says to kill, they kill, if he says to spare, they spare. If he says to smite, they smite; if he says to destroy, they destroy; if he says to build, they build; If he says to cut dow, they cut down; If he says to plant, they plant. So all his people and his army listen to him. In addition to these things, he reclines- he eats, he drinks, he rests- while they keep watch around him. Nobody can leave to do his own business, nor they disobey him. O me, in what is the king not strong, since he is so carefully obeyed?" Then he kept silent.


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Then the third, who had spoken about women and the truth and whose name was Zerubbabel, began to speak: "Men, is not the king great, and men many, and wine strong? Who then rules them, or who is their master? Is it not women? Women gave birth to the king and to all the people who rule over sea and land. They came to exist from women, and women reared those who plant the vineyards from which wine comes. Women also make men's clothing and bring glory to men. Indeed, men could not exist without women.

"Moreover, if men are gathering gold, silver, or anything beautiful, but see one woman who looks good in form and beauty, they drop everything and gape at her, and with mouths wide open they stare at her. They all choose her rather than gold, silver, or any beautiful thing. Yes, a man will even forsake his own father who reared him and his own country so as to cleave to his own wife. He will live out his life and not even remember father, mother, or country. From all this, you should realize that women rule over you!

"Do you not work hard and grow weary with toil, then bring it and give it all to women? Furthermore, am an will put on his sword and go forth to rob, steal, and sail the seas and rivers. HE will stalk a lion and walk in darkness, and when he steals, whatever he takes and pillages he will bring back to his beloved. For a man dearly loves his own wife more than his father or mother. Yes, many men have lost all sense and even become slaves because of their wives. Many have perished, stumbled, or sinned because of their wives.

"Do you not believe me now? Is king not great in his authority? Are not all the countries moved with fear to touch him? Yet I saw him with Apame, the king's concubine and the daughter of the admirable Bartacus. She sat at the king's right hand, removed the crown from the king's head, and put it on her own. She also struck the king with her left hand. At this, the king gaped at her with his mouth wide open. When she smiled at him he laughed, and when he exasperated her, he flattered her that she might be reconciled with him. O men, in what way are women not strong, since they do such things?"

Then the king and the nobles looked at one another, and Zerubbabel began to speak about the truth: "Men, are not women strong? The earth is great, heaven is high, and the sun is swift in its course, for it revolves around the heaven in a circle and returns to its place in one day. Is not He great who made all things? For His truth is greater and stronger than all things. All the earth summons the truth, and heaven blesses it; for all his works shake with fear and tremble, and there is nothing unjust with Him. But wine is unjust, the king is unjust, women are unjust, all the children of the men and their works are unjust, and all such things are unjust; for there is no truth in them. So they will perish in their injustice.

But the truth abides and is strong forever. The truth lives and rules unto ages of ages. There is no partiality or prejudice with the truth, but it does righteous things, distinct from all wrongdoings and evil. All are please with its deeds, and there is nothing unjust in its judgement. For strength, dominion, authority, and majesty belong to it unto all ages, and blessed is the God of truth."

So he stopped speaking, and all the people then cried aloud and said, "Great is the truth, for it is the strongest!" Then the king said to him, "Ask what you will, and let it be more than what is written; for we will give it to you, insamuch as you were found to be the wisest. You will also sit next to me and be called my kinsmen."

Then Zerubbabel said to the king, "Remember your vow you swore on the day you received your kingdom to rebuild Jerusalem and to send back all the vessels taken from Jerusalem, the ones Cyrus removed when he vowed to destroy Babylon and vowed to send them back there? You also vowed to rebuild the temple which the Edomites set on fire when Judea was laid waste by the Chaldeans. Now this is what I consider worthy of you, O lord our king, and what I ask of you, for it befits your greatness. Therefore I beg of you that you keep the vow you vowed to the king of heaven from your own mouth."

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@Mopac
First off, yes I have, reread this forum and you'll find I responded to every one of your assertions. Second of all, even if I were to concede there being a god, I would definitely not concede it to be the god of the bible. Also, once again, stories and accounts, not reasons why I should take the definition as you claim it is.
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@Theweakeredge
I'm going to play devil's advocate and say we should believe in God (some type of creator and supernatural/supreme being), which I would usually not do in an actual debate due to my name sake. But let's have some fun.

Resolution: It is More Reasonable to Believe in God (rather than not)

I. Unexplainable Phenomenon
People naturally attribute science they don't understand to "magic" or some God like force. Indeed, it is uncertain what caused the Big Bang, what mysterious forces allowed the universe to continue expanding to today, and all the fundamental laws of the universe. They merely happen to be ... "there". In a way, you could argue that the "God" in a philosophical manner, an overruling mysterious force that controls the world. It is of course, likely not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent like Christians suppose, due to self-contradiction. But the fact is that science has managed to gather together reliable laws and ideas of the universe (such as speed constant of light, force of gravity). As such, people name this as part of "God"'s design. That is why "God" (supreme being who may or may not follow laws of physics on his or her whim) may be reasonable to believe in.

II. Power of the Mind
There has been many studies on the human mind and what makes us particularly special. The placebo effect is able to make you boost your physical ability merely by belief. Teachers' beliefs about their students will change the way they perform. In times of extreme duress, our adrenaline has been purported to be able to help us get out of seemingly impossible physical situations. Indeed, the wonders of meditation and the ideals of mankind surpass any logical expectation. I do not personally agree with why people do not trust themselves or other people, but I think it is due to the fact that nature and culture cannot be controlled by yourself. So constantly believing in yourself, but failing to achieve goals, can be a downer, especially since you don't know everything (unlike the "God"). As such, we attribute our excellent mind to have a superior creator above it, such that we can excuse ourselves, place hope in the hands of fate. 

III. Innocent Until Proven Guilty
Throughout the criminal justice system, we have had this mindset. If there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, you should decide to have faith. This is a little misled equivalent prejudice on the side of Christians, but it's not entirely bad. Because they say, if you have hope, if you do good things, then you will eternally live happily ever after. They create an artificial reward-punishment system that, on its own, would motivate a human to follow societal expectations and stay within realm of reality. The external motivation is arguably more powerful than the internal motivation system, and so the leap of faith allows the person to do their duty as a human, without having to debate over various moral systems, and simplify it to lack of crimes and being sinless. The forgiveness and interaction with people that Jesus gives is an inspirational attitude that highly resonates with the idea of believing people are innocent, until evidence is placed.

As you can see, even though I am an atheist, for most people it is more reasonable to believe in God. It's merely due to my personal trust and confidence in my own abilities (see username), as well as human's combined incredibility, that I think there is no God. Because when we focus only on ourselves, admit our mistakes, I think that we can revolutionize the world. By doubting, by experimenting, the innovation personally outweighs the hope. In a way, it's "question everything, break the world", versus "stay in a safe place, and have hope". Hope that was enlightening.
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@Undefeatable
For this first reponse - I am going to present your arguments back at what I believe to be the most charitably interpreted - this is to steel man your arguments so to speak and ensure I know precisely what I'm arguing against.

Again, this is not a rebuttal, just seeing if these are what you mean, (Note: when I say, "therefore god", I mean "therefore god is most reasonable to believe in")

1. Unexplainable Phenomena
But the fact is that science has managed to gather together reliable laws and ideas of the universe (such as speed constant of light, force of gravity). As such, people name this as part of "God"'s design. That is why "God" (supreme being who may or may not follow laws of physics on his or her whim) may be reasonable to believe in.
Essentially: There are consistent/reliable laws of the universe, these laws can be attributed as god's design, therefore god.



2. Power of the mind
I think it is due to the fact that nature and culture cannot be controlled by yourself. So constantly believing in yourself, but failing to achieve goals, can be a downer, especially since you don't know everything (unlike the "God"). As such, we attribute our excellent mind to have a superior creator above it, such that we can excuse ourselves, place hope in the hands of fate. 
Essentially: We cannot control the wider society at large, this can be psychologically distressing, if there was a god she could handle this control allowing us to relax, therefore god



3. Innocent until proven guilty
The external motivation is arguably more powerful than the internal motivation system, and so the leap of faith allows the person to do their duty as a human, without having to debate over various moral systems, and simplify it to lack of crimes and being sinless. The forgiveness and interaction with people that Jesus gives is an inspirational attitude that highly resonates with the idea of believing people are innocent, until evidence is placed.
Essentially: That god can motivate humans to be good humans, this works more effectively than contesting other moral systems, therefore god.




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I did not believe in God but then Trump lost 2020.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

(This is not entirely ironic, I honestly believe a demigod or two was involved in this defeat ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️).
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@Undefeatable
This is the problem. You are an atheist. Your conception of God is foundationally superstitious.
When I say The Ultimate Reality, I am talking about reality as it truly is. The absolute truth. There is no doubt concerning this God.
The problem with your reasoning, which is also the same problem that weaker edge has with his reasoning, is that you both take God as a logical conclusion.

God is not a conclusion that logic leads to, rather knowledge of God comes through revelation.

Certainly, you could use reason to demonstrate that there is ultimate reality, but the fact of the matter is you shouldn't need reason. 

The existence of God is a given. There is no intelligent debate concerning this subject. All atheist arguments are contingent on making God something other than what He is, namely The Truth.

IF you make God something other than The Truth, you aren't really talking about God.

And the problem with weaker edge in particular is that he doesn't want me to demonstrate the existence of ultimate reality. Rather he wants to argue over the meanings of words.

The obvious truth of the matter is that if an atheist accepted The Ultimate Reality as being God, the stupidity of their worldview would become glaringly obvious. That being the case, they need to prop up a strawman god and make pretense of reason. 

No atheist has an orthodox understanding of God.




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@Mopac
This is the problem. You are a theist. Your conception of god is foundationally superstitious.
When I say the objective reality, I am talking about reality as it truly is. The absolute truth. There is no doubt concerning this reality.
The problem with your reasoning, which is also the same problem that Tradesecret has with his reasoning, is that you both take God as an axiom
God is not an axion that you presume, rather, god would be a conclusion one must demonstrate through deductive reasoning

Certainly, you could use faith to assume that there is god, but the fact of the matter is you shouldn't need faith. 

The existence of God has not been proven. There is no valid argument in favor of her existence. All your arguments are contingent on making god something other than what she is, namely the truth.

IF you make god something equivalent to the truth, you aren't really talking about god.

And the problem with tradesecret, in particular, is that he doesn't want me to demonstrate the existence of this god either. Rather they want to argue over rather she's axiomatic or not.

The obvious truth of the matter is that if the theist validly demonstrated god, the atheist would accept it, the ignorance of your worldview should become glaringly obvious now. That being the case, you need to ignore all reason and ignore every point to appear strong

Your understanding of god is wrong and unproven.

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@Theweakeredge
My understanding is in line with ancient theology.

Your understanding is a modern development, and has its origin in philosophies that were reactions against the vapidities of heterodox Christianity.


Your understanding of God is not orthodox.

The funny thing is, if what I am saying is true, and it is, the behavior you are displaying is consistent with your professed worldview. Being an atheist, that makes you a nihilist. Being a nihilist, your reasoning has nothing to do with a love of The Truth(which you reject) rather a love of yourself and your own arbitrary will of how things should be.

My understanding is in line with theology. Yours isn't. That being the case, you don't know what you are talking about.


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@Theweakeredge
What would prove to you that The Ultimate Reality is God?

What you consider to be proof will reveal your superstitions.
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@Mopac
What would I consider proof that the god you referring to is the ultimate reality? Hmm, an interesting question, I suppose some direct link between the two that was stronger than a definition. (A definition which isn't even how you interpret it, and there are better ones), the definition argument is so flimsy, and if you're claiming that your link is theology then you are on even more flimsy grounds. At least the dictionaries have some degree of authority, if religion or some theology claims that god is the ultimate so and so, then that is really nothing more than an assertion. Which would mean they would have to demonstrate it.

Basically - why is god the ultimate reality? What's your thought process there? Is there a thought process, or are you simply presuming that god is the ultimate reality because you misinterpreted a definition and theology told you so?

Could I give you specific things that would demonstrate god? No, not really, I wouldn't know precisely what kind of evidence would convince me, but I know if this theoretical evidence is logically sound and valid, I will accept it. 
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@Mopac
here's the problem, right. Let's presume there is a God. I'm going to suspend my belief, and put it in the entity of God. By putting sentience to all events in the universe, you infer everything has a reason for its cause. So God, for no apparent reason, caused the big bang. He has not revealed himself to our entire human race, for no good reason. He has not stopped malicious things from happening, and he has stopped punishing people, despite Christian Bible noting his history of doing so. And somehow, somehow, he has forgotten to give ourselves another planet to help us out, with the closest inhabitable planet being light years away. You attribute this to our "sins", but it is difficult to say with 100% certainty that even cavemen had sins. And why would he punish animals (they are suffering everyday in meat industry, in environmental pollution), if animals are simply there, with no mention of sinning animals in the bible (besides the Serpent of Sin)? 

If there is a God, then he or she is a callous and careless entity similar to an Omega level civilization Alien. He does not care for our existence, nor our beliefs, and could only have caused it, rather than perpetuate its existence. Otherwise, the sheer power of God would be obvious and self-evident to all people on the planet, not just Christians. In other words, it is like a game developer looking upon its characters. A non omnipotent, non omniscient, non omnibenevolent creator. And that's a scary thought to think about.
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@Theweakeredge
Why is God the Ultimate Reality?

Because that is what we mean by the word.

But what is truly eternal? What gives existence to all things? What is everywhere present? What gives power to all things? What contains all that can be known? What is singular with no opposite, equal, or comparison? All of this is only fulfilled in The Ultimate Reality. The only thing God could be is The Ultimate Reality.

I'm not misinterpreting a definition. My understanding has a consistancy with everything. Your understanding comes from bad education.
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@Mopac
No, not reall, if what you mean by god is "ultimate reality", then she can not be the god of the bible, or anything more than a pantheist's sort of god, if you are implying that god is simply definitionally axiomatic, you are both inccorect and logically flawed in your thought process.
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@Undefeatable
If God is The Ultimate Reality, which he is, then making peace with the way things are is making peace with God.

If it is a reality that there is suffering and evil in the world, it is maladaptive to point at reality and say, "I'd rather it be this way!", and then judge reality for not conforming to your sense of aesthetics or biases. Truthfully, it is even prefering delusion to reality.

In the end, we are judged by The Truth. Any judgement we make toward The Truth is nonsensical. 

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@Theweakeredge
You of course say this because you know everything.

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God can't be anything that I can't wrap my head around!
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@Mopac
No.. I don't know everything, but you don't know that a god exists either. 
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@Theweakeredge
I am more certain of God's existence than I am that the sun will rise in the morning. I am more certain of God's existence than even the existence of myself.

In fact, the only thing I am 100% sure of is that God exists.

I know God exists. You don't know my God, because you can't accept my God.



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For more than a millennium, scholars have noticed a curious correlation: Atheists tend to be more intelligent than religious people.

It's unclear why this trend persists, but researchers of a new study have an idea: Religion is an instinct, they say, and people who can rise above instincts are more intelligent than those who rely on them.

"Intelligence — in rationally solving problems — can be understood as involving overcoming instinct and being intellectually curious and thus open to non-instinctive possibilities," said study lead author Edward Dutton, a research fellow at the Ulster Institute for Social Research in the United Kingdom.

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@Mopac
So... you're presuming your god exists then? Again, presuming your conclusion in your premises, begging the question, this entire argument of yours could be summed up with: False definitions and Begging the question 
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@Theweakeredge
It is no presumptuous thing to believe in the existence of ultimate reality, rather nothing else is possible.

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@Mopac
But it is presumptuous to ascribe god that quality - which is typically, definitionally, culturally, and factually not the ultimate reality.
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@Theweakeredge
This is not a subject matter you are educated enough in to have an opinion.

I know what I believe, and I can tell you what I believe, and what these beliefs mean. As long as you think you know, you will be confounded.

My religion is Truth worship. You are confused by the outward manifestation of my religion. You don't understand my faith.
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@Mopac
Explain my lack of education then, go on, I'll wait. If a proposition is true, one should be able to demonstrate it using deductive, inductive, or abductive reasoning. You have done none of the above. Before you commit a category error, how about you be capable of actually backing up your position. As so far - you have been nothing but dismissive and flawed in your reasoning.