United States slaves were, overall, treated quite well

Author: MgtowDemon ,

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  • MgtowDemon
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    MgtowDemon
    Again, this OP is inspired by a private PM that I received. The quote involved is as follows: 

    "...learning English isn't a benefit. Not whenever its because if you don't learn English you'll be fucking whipped, second of all, it was a reputation thing in early America, especially near the civil war, as slaves were seen as property and therefore needed to be able to perform, that means they were given enough to eat most times."

    The school-taught U.S. slavery oppression narrative is riddled with flaws, and in this OP I will address some of them.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I don't condone slavery and I actively will speak out against it. However, in regards to the slavery conditions of the United States, slaves were treated quite well, relative to the bogus official narrative peddled in U.S. schools.

    Eating

    American adult slaves were actually quite well fed, so much so that they actually grew to be slightly taller than their slave owner's (apart from English aristocrat and Swedes) https://www.jstor.org/stable/2121481?seq=1 . This work is behind a paywall so I gathered the relevant table here https://i.imgur.com/DKvGFFk.png . Therefore, the evidence suggests that slaves were not "given enough to eat most times", but they were "well fed", thus treated well in this regard.

    English

    Saying that "learning English isn't a benefit" is, quite frankly, a ridiculous statement that flies in the face of universal standards -- the Human Development Index has "literacy" as a component. In other words, the whole world agrees that literacy is important. In the 1870 census, African American slaves had a literacy rate of over 20%. Comparatively, Russia only had a literacy rate of 15% at this time https://ourworldindata.org/literacy . Further comparison shows that Africa, as a continent, didn't reach 20% literacy rates until 1950. Thus, in terms of literacy, Africans were better off in the United States.

    Adjusting for the context of the era involving slavery in the United States, learning English was a benefit because it allowed some of the more talented Africans to become emancipated an integrate into American society. It also helped the slaves to communicate in general.

    The claim that Africans were "whipped" if they didn't learn English, flies in the face of logic: why would you buy a slave to abuse and whip him/her? Similar to how well we treat cows, despite owning them, whipping your cow/slave would cause injury and thus stymie his/her ability to produce milk/work for you. Not to mention the official Wikipedia page suggests that teaching slaves English "was discouraged" and made illegal in certain Southern states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_slave_period_in_the_United_States . Also, data on the brutality of slave owners to slaves is very hard to find (perhaps because it doesn't exist).

    Performance

    it's true that slaves were expected to perform, but that doesn't mean they were whipped and worked hard. A study in 2015 by Trevor Logan found that his children were able to pick cotton at 95% the rate of the average, same-age slave *child* https://i.imgur.com/xnAtnnS.png . Add to this the fact that the average free farmer worked 3,130 hours a year, whilst the average black slave worked 2,798 (Fogel and Engerman, 1977). 

    Thus, slaves worked fewer hours than White free farmers and weren't worked particularly hard.


  • Sum1hugme
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    "whipping your slaves seems illogical therefore it didn't happen"
  • Theweakeredge
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    --> @MgtowDemon @Sum1hugme
    Btw, that was me, I said "learning english isn't a benefit whenever if you don't you'll get fucking whipped," This guy proceeded to say that, "Maybe if you see other people agreeing with what I write, you will see where my arguments are sufficient" No, that's not how that works, you would have to refute my examples and all of that, instead of going on a white washed trying to retell history, and not actually knowing the subject ground. 

  • Theweakeredge
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    Let me copy and paste my messaged responses:

    Finally, the english portion, no you are still wrong, lets look at this: you claim that because one person's children worked harder than slaves (with only one table to support said table could have been literally made up seeing how its fucking imgur, improper source at its finest) The vast vast amount of primary sources and documents we have from those times recorded the brutality of southern plantation owners especially. Not to mention, the reason that people in Afrian didn't learn English is because there were a know, very few people who spoke English. So duh, but again, which is better? Them not learning English and still being in Africa, or them knowing in English and being a slave?

    Oh yeah, I nearly forgot a couple things about the slaves vs child point: First of all, children today or recently or more educated than a lot of adults in the times of slavery, not to mention that slaves specifically weren't educated, not on average or even a large percentage. Also, you know, technology; which these children have more access even simple terms increase the rate at which they can do the fields. So even if your source were suffcient, you would still be wrong, but again, if you want I can go put that in your slavery discussion
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    Ahh, nothing shows you aren't a racist like trying to defend chattel slavery, an inherently racist system. 
  • Danielle
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    Sex slaves and rape "victims" are also treated pretty well. You mean to tell me they don't enjoy getting laid?
  • SupaDudz
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    When I go on this site sometimes, my brain just freezes and then proceeds to melt
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @SupaDudz
    When I go on this site sometimes, my brain just freezes and then proceeds to melt
    Eat a Snickers bar 💀
  • Death23
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    You’re polluting the forms with racist propaganda and it’s getting to the point where it strains credulity to think that it’s anything other than hate speech.
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @Death23
    You’re polluting the forms with racist propaganda and it’s getting to the point where it strains credulity to think that it’s anything other than hate speech.
    He’s entitled to his opinion. Hate speech laws violate free speech doctrines which is not a policy of DART to my knowledge 
  • Death23
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    --> @ILikePie5
    Read it again
  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @Sum1hugme
    "whipping your slaves seems illogical therefore it didn't happen"
    If it was so prevalent there should be a plethora of data on it. If you're so confident that it happened, fulfil your burden of proof and show us the data.

    And no, it doesn't "seem illogical". Purchasing slaves from Africa was expensive and took many, many months. Why would you want to destroy the slave that you put large sums of money and effort into acquiring? That *is* illogical.

  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @Theweakeredge
    No, that's not how that works, you would have to refute my examples and all of that
    I refuted what you said sentence by sentence, addressing each sentence of your own with paragraphs and research.

    For example, I quoted you saying that the slaves were, "given enough to eat most times", and I used evidence and data to show that the slaves were better fed than that, in that they started to grow taller than their slave masters and such.

    We're at loggerheads because I'm directly quoting you, addressing every aspect of your quote in detail (literally sentence by sentence), and you're saying that you don't see a refutation. I cannot do anything more than that, which is why I brought the discussion to forums to have 3rd parties involved. Unfortunately, the extreme left seems to reside here (or at least Centrists and Conservatives haven't responded yet), and thus the only responses I'm getting are snarky, drive-by comments bereft of argument and citations. If those convince you, then discussing this with you is a waste of time.

    instead of going on a white washed trying to retell history, and not actually knowing the subject ground. 

    Rather than attempting to address and rebut the points I'm making, you'd rather slander with pejoratives ("white washed") and claim that I don't know the subject ground, despite me citing numerous studies and explaining my stance in detail (and you not explaining why my stance is faulty).

    Your behaviour is no different to that of a zealot here, and thus we see a conversations similar to that of the religious forums.
  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @Danielle
    Sex slaves and rape "victims" are also treated pretty well. You mean to tell me they don't enjoy getting laid?
    You haven't presented any data to certify your claims.

  • Theweakeredge
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    No, you haven't, I refuted each of your points in our message, and not to mention you still haven't refuted my points.
  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @ILikePie5
    He’s entitled to his opinion. Hate speech laws violate free speech doctrines which is not a policy of DART to my knowledge 
    100% true.

    I suspect Death23 is intent on shutting me down with slanderous garble because he is unable to handle the arguments presented here. He's already established a bit of a history doing it, despite having only interacted with him a couple of times https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5177-at-what-point-does-the-racism-boogeyman-go-away?page=3&post_number=64

    America stands as a shining beacon of free speech. It is beautiful.

  • Death23
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    • Unwarranted systemic vulgarity and invectives, which may include off topic personal attacks and/or hate speech, are subject to disciplinary actions.

  • MgtowDemon
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    Finally, the english portion, no you are still wrong, lets look at this: you claim that because one person's children worked harder than slaves (with only one table to support said table could have been literally made up seeing how its fucking imgur, improper source at its finest)
    The reason I posted the imgur of the study's graph is because I don't have access to an online copy of the study, and thus you wouldn't be able to see what I'm talking about, if I didn't post that. It's baffling that you would complain about me showing you the data I'm talking about lol

    The vast vast amount of primary sources and documents we have from those times recorded the brutality of southern plantation owners especially.
    You haven't posted any of those, let alone a "vast vast amount", either here or in our discussion in the PMs.

    Furthermore, seeing that I've actually looked at both sides of the argument, if you do end up posting anything, it's likely to be a personal recount, instead of the superior data that I provided. Anecdotes get destroyed by data, when it comes to debate. Unless you actually have a "vast vast" amount of primary sources and documents you're going to show us, my data objectively wins.

    I'd also like to say that there were absolutely genuine instances of slave brutality. Just like in general society, some people are twisted and want to cause harm to others. However, the purpose of this thread is to show that the vast majority of slaves were treated quite well, and slave brutality was the vanishingly rare exception.

    Not to mention, the reason that people in Afrian didn't learn English is because there were a know, very few people who spoke English.
    Again, you make a claim without any evidence. Unfortunately, the 1870 American census showed that the White people had a literacy rate of roughly 80%, so you're not only making a bare assertion, but you are wrong about it, too. Clearly, you haven't read the other side of the topic, thus your one-sided, bare assertion account of it.

    So duh, but again, which is better? Them not learning English and still being in Africa, or them knowing in English and being a slave?
    Have you any conception of what life was like in 1870's Africa? Are you even aware of the *rampant* slavery that occurred in Africa during this time, so much so that the economic supply of slaves was inelastic? Just so that point is clear: African American slaves would have been slaves anyway in Africa https://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/slaves-in-america-wouldve-been-slaves-in-africa-anyway/ .

    Oh yeah, I nearly forgot a couple things about the slaves vs child point: First of all, children today or recently or more educated than a lot of adults in the times of slavery, not to mention that slaves specifically weren't educated, not on average or even a large percentage. Also, you know, technology; which these children have more access even simple terms increase the rate at which they can do the fields. So even if your source were suffcient, you would still be wrong, but again, if you want I can go put that in your slavery discussion
    Could you please explain to us how being "more educated" would affect the rate in which someone picks cotton?

    Also, could you please tell us how picking cotton with your hands is affected by technology?
  • Sum1hugme
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    Well you didn't cite anything, but you obviously don't have a problem with wikipedia. I'll cite three sources to your zer0.


    You literally only said that, because it doesn't seem logical, then they probably weren't whipped. Right, because someone who owns slaves is going to be acting on pure logic lol



  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @Sum1hugme
    Well you didn't cite anything
    If you use your mouse to scroll up to the OP of this thread (that's the very first post with #1 in the top right of its box), the blue and underlined text is what we call a 'hyperlink', and left-clicking your mouse opens a new page which has the citations I'm referencing (the OP post is mine, btw).

    If you can do that for me, you'll get a gold star.

    Firstly, this is Wikipedia, which is notoriously historically revisionist. So, I'd like to be able to check the source itself, but of course there is no online reading available.

    Do you expect me to take the word of a book that I'm unable to read? Have you read the book yourself?

    So this is *precisely* the problem I have with your narrative that your kind likes to push. We have a slave, who, prima facie, appears to have been whipped and badly treated. I have no doubt that there was the odd slave that was treated very poorly like this. Without doing thorough analysis of this, I'd be willing to bet that this account is true and it did happen. 

    Now, where is the evidence that *all* the other slaves were treated like this, or even a vast minority/majority? If the slaves were treated this badly, then surely there would be data on this topic, instead of mere anecdotes like this. Surely, there would be mass data on slaves dying of infection, neglect, beatings etc.

    That's the real data we need to see, not another anecdote.

    Fyi I've already provided data on this topic, showing how Africans were treated well enough to grow taller than their slave owners (this information is in the OP).

    I have no idea what you expected me to do with this link. "No e-book available" makes it difficult to read. You don't explain what was in the book and how it defends your position here. Have you actually read any of the sources you've provided here?
  • Sum1hugme
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    "If you use your mouse to scroll up to the OP of this thread (that's the very first post with #1 in the top right of its box), the blue and underlined text is what we call a 'hyperlink', and left-clicking your mouse opens a new page which has the citations I'm referencing (the OP post is mine, btw).

    If you can do that for me, you'll get a gold star"
      Well, you condescending dick, I did click your hyperlinks and none of them supported your baseless assertion that "Also, data on the brutality of slave owners to slaves is very hard to find (perhaps because it doesn't exist)." It just shows that you haven't done much research. I of course meant you didn't cite anything relevant to the claim. However, I did misread that you said they were whipped for being educated.

    "Firstly, this is Wikipedia..."
      I cited wikipedia because you did with the prohibition of education.

    "...that your kind likes to push"
      It speaks volumes that you feel the need to profile me into some "kind" just because I disagree with you on a single topic. You don't know me or what I believe, so take this ignorance out of your replies.

    "I have no doubt that there was the odd slave that was treated very poorly like this...Now, where is the evidence that *all* the other slaves were treated like this, or even a vast minority/majority?"
      Now you've shifted from, prove slaves were whipped, to, prove all slaves were whipped, to, prove a vast majority/minority were whipped. What is "vast" to you? What will you accept as data if not the accounts of slaves themselves?

    "If the slaves were treated this badly, then surely there would be data on this topic, instead of mere anecdotes like this."
      lol Like slave owners are known for their meticulous beating records. All the data has to necessarily be anecdotal fundamentally, then compiled. 

    "I have no idea what you expected me to do with this link. "No e-book available" makes it difficult to read. You don't explain what was in the book and how it defends your position here. Have you actually read any of the sources you've provided here?"

      Here is an excerpt from page 85 since your computer is broken: "Punishment on the plantation was, essentially, physical punishment. The whip was the correctional instrument of all purpose. Usually, the slave was stripped to the waist, hands tied, and flogged on the back."

      So how about you take the bass out of your tone.
  • Death23
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    --> @Sum1hugme
    He has no evidence. Could be Wylted trolling from beyond the grave.
  • MgtowDemon
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    --> @Sum1hugme
      Well, you condescending dick, I did click your hyperlinks and none of them supported your baseless assertion that "Also, data on the brutality of slave owners to slaves is very hard to find (perhaps because it doesn't exist)." It just shows that you haven't done much research. I of course meant you didn't cite anything relevant to the claim. However, I did misread that you said they were whipped for being educated.
    Condescension was appropriate due to you accusing me of providing "zero" citations, despite my OP being littered with them. If you continue engage in blind ignorance, condescension will be a returning guest.

    I've spent dozens of hours researching the topic. It is absolutely possible that the data, which argues contrary to what I have, exists and I haven't found it yet. Again, if you have stumbled across it, please cite the data.

    Thank you for admitting you misread something. I was quoting someone else who asserted that, and I was debunking it. It is reasonable to expect some level of confusion in that.

     I cited wikipedia because you did with the prohibition of education.
    Sure, and I'm not sure of the validity in either. I cited Wikipedia, which is against my general case, to show how wrong the quote I was responding to was.

    For the record, I'm not sure if education was withheld from slaves.

      It speaks volumes that you feel the need to profile me into some "kind" just because I disagree with you on a single topic. You don't know me or what I believe, so take this ignorance out of your replies.
    I've encountered your line of argument many times, and a particular person tends to push it. It's reasonable to assume you fit the mold. 

    Now you've shifted from, prove slaves were whipped, to, prove all slaves were whipped, to, prove a vast majority/minority were whipped. What is "vast" to you? What will you accept as data if not the accounts of slaves themselves?
    Incorrect. From the very title itself, you can see the word "overall", which allows room for a level of mistreatment of slaves. Furthermore, this apparent "shift" (lol) is actually implying that you have such little data-driven evidence, that I'm requesting *anything* from you that could prove a decent number of slaves were badly treated. Moreover, this "shift" is indicative of your lackluster position. The fact that you would interpret this as a weakness in my argument is amusing xD

    "Accounts of slaves" are anecdotes unless they are complied into data. Do you require me to explain to you why anecdotal evidence is not sufficient?

     lol Like slave owners are known for their meticulous beating records. All the data has to necessarily be anecdotal fundamentally, then compiled. 
    If slave owners are known for their "meticulous beating records," then you should be able to show that. If you need to cite 1000s of anecdotal evidence to replace the data *required* to make such a case, be my guest. However, the absurdity of such a request should indicate that you do not have the mountain of evidence required, and hence your position is indefensible when it is based purely on anecdotal evidence.

    "Preview unavailable." "Search inside unavailable." There's no link to read the file on a Pdf or whatever.

     Here is an excerpt from page 85 since your computer is broken: "Punishment on the plantation was, essentially, physical punishment. The whip was the correctional instrument of all purpose. Usually, the slave was stripped to the waist, hands tied, and flogged on the back."
    Great. Where is the data backing this conclusion?











  • Sum1hugme
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    I'm at something so I will respond to this lot of nonsense later. But I'm mostly curious about, "I've encountered your line of argument many times, and a particular person tends to push it. It's reasonable to assume you fit the mold" 
    What mold is that?
  • PressF4Respect
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    --> @MgtowDemon
    Ah nice to see you again Wylted!