Abortion?

Author: Theweakeredge

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seldiora
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@Checkmate
you’re a believer in Deontology, aren’t you? In that case, wouldn’t you say the intention to free oneself of a fetus which may or may not have life, outweighs the original intention to have sex? You forget that contraceptive is precisely there to allow people to have fun without making babies. Are you telling me we should not use contraceptives at all? Or that, when something is created for one purpose, we should not innovate and find new ways to use it? Your argument is begging the question.

seldiora
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@Checkmate
in addition, are you also inferring men are also meant to have babies? Or women somehow have sperm? How else would you explain homosexual sex?

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@seldiora
 Are you telling me we should not use contraceptives at all?
I'm saying you should use it if you want to lower the chances of having a baby, but if you do end up having a baby, you can't just say "oh well it is what it is". 

Or that, when something is created for one purpose, we should not innovate and find new ways to use it?
The purpose of contraceptives is not to full proof you from having children. It simply lowers the chance. And as I mentioned above, lowering the chances doesn't really matter when the result includes a dead baby. 
seldiora
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@Checkmate
lowering doesn't matter? So what's the difference between Contraceptive being 98% effective vs abortion being 100% effective? 
Checkmate
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lowering doesn't matter?
Lowering is just that. Lowering. You take contraceptives because you want to lower the chances of having a child, but it is in no way a perfect method, and that is a known fact. Having sex is like taking a gamble. Using contraceptives is like tweaking the odds into your favour. What you can’t do is tweak the odds into your favour and then expect to win 100% of the time. If you don’t want a baby, stop having sex for gods sake.

So what's the difference between Contraceptive being 98% effective vs abortion being 100% effective?
Because abortion ends with a dead baby. You’ve made the wrong comparison. It should be “what’s the difference between contraceptives being 98% effective and not having sex which is 100% effective”
Checkmate
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@seldiora
^^^
seldiora
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@Checkmate
ok, and what about the fact that 80% of pregnancies before 20 weeks fail to give birth? Are we willing to have 4 women be unable to have liberty to their own body, and suffer immense physical and mental pain, for every single one baby that dies?
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@seldiora
What you are doing is using the marginal cases to justify the majority. I will not answer your question unless you believe the average abortion, where no one is in harm, is wrong .
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@Checkmate
On "Average" the child does not even have potential to become child (low success rate). So it is not wrong.
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@Checkmate
Telling people not to have sex, would be like trying to tell kids to switch off their devices. 


Morals, Abortion, Technology.....The evolution of human capability.


Sex is just the temporary scratch  of the permanent itch......All that we need is an App.
Reece101
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@Checkmate
The natural purpose of sex is to have babies. 
The main purpose of sex is yes, procreation, but for social creatures it’s also for strengthening social bonds.
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@Theweakeredge
Asking if abortion is right or wrong comes down to a basic question of moral systems. There's always the balancing act between the rights/interests of the unborn and the rights/interests of the mother, but even that push and pull comes down to a set of much more basic questions, including issues of when life begins and the extents to which bodily autonomy can be abridged. For all the analogies that people use to relate to abortion, there's really no good comparison without leading to something incredibly convoluted that would never or almost never happen in real life.

So, to answer your question, it is neither right nor wrong. Perception is everything and this is highly polarizing issue for a reason. For all the arguments that people like Checkpoint present that make this sound black and white, there are numerous assumptions that are built into both sides' points. Moreover, I think the fundamental problem with this debate is that it remains almost entirely focused on whether what we're doing now (in a world where abortion is legal) is wrong rather than comparing this world to the one where abortion is either abolished or substantially restricted. Sure, arguments come up about illegal abortions happening, though honestly, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Understanding legal systems shift to accommodate an understanding that the unborn are due the same rights as an infant born into the world alive is essential to this debate, and I don't think that arguing about abortion in a vacuum entirely free of the consequences of legal changes does much for this debate. Even if we all agree that abortion is wrong, it could still be less wrong than a world in which abortion is banned or substantially restricted.
Checkmate
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@seldiora
On "Average" the child does not even have potential to become child (low success rate). So it is not wrong.
This is poor reasoning. I can say the average child does not become a successful contributor of society therefore allowing me to kill them. The point is that abortion involves the slaughter of a child. 

When do you believe life begin. 
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@Reece101
The natural purpose of sex is to have babies. 
The main purpose of sex is yes, procreation, but for social creatures it’s also for strengthening social bonds.

But that's just like saying "oh I've become this way don't judge me it's in my blood". Men being violent is in their blood, but I certainly don't think you would condone a man beating their wife up because it is in their blood. Saying "we are social creatures and require sex" doesn't take away the fact that abortion kills a baby. 
Reece101
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@Checkmate
Take what I said at face value. I said nothing about abortion. 
I’m a big advocate of contraceptives for couples who aren’t ready.
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@Reece101
But if the contraceptives fail, it will not be acceptable for them to abort the baby, after taking the willing risk of having a baby. 
Reece101
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@Checkmate
Is it a woman’s fault for getting raped and pregnant because she wore revealing clothes?

Theweakeredge
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The mother freely elects to “serve as life support” when having the child, that is the inherent responsibility of motherhood”
This is wrong for so many reasons. First of all, one could argue that one has the inherent responsibility of donating blood to another person. The argument doesn't depend on that, second of all: NO. Rape, women can easily and are easily coerced into having children, the woman can be irresponsible - in which case it could very easily be argued that they were not aware of this responsibility and would have denied it had they known (hence the case with teenage pregnancies), there are so many different reasons why this is just flat out wrong.


“Second, even if the voter buys that by existing the baby has somehow done wrong, consider that the punishment must be proportional to the crime. Violating someone’s right to life is black & white.
This is incorrect, hence all of the debate over the death penalty. Obviously, if different actions can have one receive more or less harm, and death be a result of harm enough, then it isn't black and white. Yes, someone is either alive or dead, but the actual "violation" is not. 


Life is the prerequisite to all other natural rights, so the punishment is proportional even if it is death.
Hm.. this is framing the problem incorrectly. Obviously, you have to be alive to have any rights, that's a fact, however, lets consider the following: If we treated this as the basis for all rulings then that means any case in which a "right of life" is violated there is no justification, as it is necessary for any other rights to exist. If someone kills a violent mugger in self-defense, well that person wouldn't even have the right to defend themself if it wasn't for the fact that they were alive, that's immoral. Do you see the ab absurdum baked in?


For instance, those sentenced to death have taken the lives of many people (i.e. in exchange for taking the lives of others, the perpetrator forfeits their right to life in response).
Does that mean if someone acts in self-defence they've forfeited they're right to life? No, obviously not, there are clearly circumstances where it is warranted to take life away. 



On the other hand, it is universally agreed to be an unjust practice to execute over minor grievances.
Minor grievances? First of all, this assumes that the case of someone's bodily anatomy on the literal deepest level is minor in any regard, which it isn't. Second of all, it wouldn't matter if it was universally agreed upon, it still wouldn't necessarily be true. Now I agree with it, but you can see MisterChris's fallacious thinking whenever it comes to moral arguments. 


My liberty and pursuit of happiness are impeded in small ways daily (such as the fact that I must follow traffic laws when I drive, or the fact that I am not allowed to bring my orange juice into the movie theatre).
So.. you're saying that a DRIVING VIOLATION is equivalent to PREGNANCY? That's your argument here? They clearly are not equivalent, for as they said. this is a small impedement, whereas pregnancy is a constant for at least 9 months, 24/7. This is a false equivalence. 


These small inconveniences do not warrant me lining up everyone who has wronged me and shooting them in the back of the head, especially since many small sacrifices I make in liberty I make for the greater good (imagine how many lives people would take if they didn’t follow traffic laws).
Again, this is obviously a false equivalence on MisterChris's part. 


The woman sacrifices the right to kill her baby for the greater good of having a child… and finally the minor inconvenience a baby brings is not warranting death.”
This is not at all what's happening, as abortion does not mean, to kill a baby, abortion means to terminate a pregnancy. Which could result in death of the fetus, or a cee section. 


PART 2 to come
Checkmate
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@Reece101
I see right through you. Now you're trying to use the marginal case to justify the majority. Before we begin to discuss rape, can we agree that the majority of cases of abortion where no one is in harm is wrong?
Theweakeredge
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@Checkmate
Nope
Reece101
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@Checkmate
No.

I want to point out your cognitive dissonance in terms of risk factor and it being out of the woman’s control.
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@Reece101
@Theweakeredge
Then mentioning rape was simply a red herring as I expected. 
Theweakeredge
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@Checkmate
How about this - I want you to define red herring and explain how it applies to rape in this instance.
Reece101
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@Checkmate
I’ll sum up our conversation and the point I’m making.

You said:
But if the contraceptives fail, it will not be acceptable for them to abort the baby, after taking the willing risk of having a baby. 
So the contraception(s) was a preventative measure which lowered the risk of pregnancy.
The failure of the contraceptive(s) was out of the woman’s control.


Then I asked:
Is it a woman’s fault for getting raped and pregnant because she wore revealing clothes?
I didn’t ask this question due its affronting nature.
I asked because it was the closest example I could come up with which contained the elements I was looking for. 

In this scenario the woman increased her risk, but you wouldn’t say its her fault, correct?

If so, that’s cognitive dissonance. 

Checkmate
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@Theweakeredge


Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.

You attempted to redirect the issue of abortion and justify it with a small population.

Now, rape consists of less than 1 percent of abortions in 2004.  Notably, the top 3 reasons for abortion include, "not ready for a child, can't afford a child, don't want children", all three of which I have already debunked. In case you didn't see, here's why these three reasoning are poor. 

Not ready for a child. 
If you can kill a fetus because you're not ready for a child, can I kill a baby because I'm not ready for a teen?

Can't afford a child. 
If I went to a poverty stricken community and shot up their public school, would I be simply saving a child and praised for getting these poor kids out of their terrible lives?

Don't want a child. 
I don't want a teen. Can I kill him?

It is very poor for one to mention rape as though it justifies all abortions. If you want to talk about abortion, let's talk about the vast majority. 
Theweakeredge
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First of all, I never used rape as sole proof of anything, that was never my position. Second, you have no evidence that what they were trying to do was to abandon the argument, as they clearly readdressed it in their next post, thirdly, it definitely doesn't apply to me.

Also, the difference in all of those cases that make your arguments nothing more than false equivalences is the fact that one is biologically within the body the other isn't, they are different. 
fauxlaw
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I've watched this string with interest because it is a matter on which I've just finished a debate, and is now in voting. Bump, by the way. Frst, I'll mention that although Edge began the string claiming indifference to the argument, that position changed in the #3 post, and forward by introducing a distinction between morality and ethics. There is a difference. Morality is a social construct, ethics are the purview of individuals. Their respective Latin and Greek roots are evidence of that.

That said, it appears abortion requires a number of assumptions to justify either the morality or the ethics.

1. Life does not begin at conception.
2. The fetus is not human, nor a person.
3. Therefore, abortion is not murder.

I'll address each in order:
1. Life does not begin at conception. However, the ignored point is that life never begins in the first place; it is evident prior to conception, and even prior to coitus because the male and female gametes, themselves, are living organisms of 23 chromosomes, each. The fact that they become one complete 46-chromosome individual [or more], does not change the "living condition." Life continues from two separate individuals to that unified in conception.

2. The separate gametes represent nothing but 50% of human DNA, and of no other creature. The conception by gametes' unification creates nothing but one [or more] creatures comprised of human DNA and nothing else. A person is defined as a human being. As that human begins as human, and nothing else, it follows that it maintains its existence as human throughout fetal development. through birth, and beyond. It therefore meets the definition of "person."

3. Since the gametes/zygote/embryo/fetus is human, therefore a person, though unborn, it bears the rights granted to any other born person, or it should. In fact, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 certifies that violence leading to the death of a pregnant woman carries two charges of murder; one for the unborn. Murder is a legal term for the willful death of a human, and no other animal.
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@fauxlaw
Yeah, honestly I just couldn't. I tried, I really did, I can't help but wanna jump in the debate myself, ya know? If I'm voting for a debate by itself that's all good, the debate already ended, but this... Honestly, I knew no one would bring up my position. That the fetus is both alive and that abortion is amoral. 
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@Theweakeredge
Fine, but your point that abortion is amoral is a bit rich considering that abortion is not a social decision, but an individual decision, therefore, morality is obviously not a factor, except that it is such a controversial subject that will always be controversial.
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@fauxlaw
Exactly, amoral, as in not something that is either moral or immoral, you literally just agreed with me and then mocked the belief. Its controversial because of patriarchy, that should be pretty obvious.