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@zedvictor4
The appreciable narrative itself is objective, though the internally organized data content contained therein, is wholly abstract or subjective.
Well stated.
What I realized
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@zedvictor4
In terms of production... Other than the appreciable narrative, both are subject to the same creative process.
I beg to differ, what adequate proof you have of this claim?
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@3RU7AL
Do FACTS have words?
No because “it’s an abstract concept independent of the mind making it inherently objective.”
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@Tarik
concept independent of the mind
A CONCEPT REQUIRES A MIND.
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@3RU7AL
I concur maybe concept wasn’t the best word but outside of that my argument still holds.
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@Tarik
Only OBJECTS can be (hypothetically) "independent" of a mind.
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@Tarik
Firstly, tell me why you beg to differ.
In terms of process and regardless of detail variations, how does the production of one bit of data output, differ from another.
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@3RU7AL
Only OBJECTS can be (hypothetically) "independent" of a mind.
The sun rising in the east and setting in the west has nothing to do with our minds, just objective reality.
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@zedvictor4
Firstly, tell me why you beg to differ.
Because the dictionary says different.
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@Tarik
The sun rising in the east and setting in the west has nothing to do with our minds, just objective reality.
THE SUN NEVER "RISES".
THE "EAST" AND THE "WEST" ARE CONCEPTS FABRICATED BY HUMAN MINDS AND DO NOT "EXIST" WITHOUT HUMAN MINDS.
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@Tarik
It's tough to represent a three-dimensional world in a two-dimensional map. The most common way of getting around this problem is to use a Mercator projection. This method of map-drawing, invented by Flemish cartographer Gerardus Mercator in 1569, found favor because it preserved local angular relationships, making navigation easier. However, it also massively distorts size and distances as you get closer to the two poles.
Given how popular the Mercator projection is, it's wise to question how it makes us view the world. Many have noted, for example, how the distortion around the poles makes Africa look smaller than Greenland, when in reality Africa is about 14.5 times as big. In 2010, graphic artist Kai Krause made a map to illustrate just how big the African continent is. He found that he was able to fit the United States, India and much of Europe inside the outline of the African continent. [LINK]
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@3RU7AL
So, who or what created the first human mind?
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@Tarik
So, who or what created the first human mind?
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
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@3RU7AL
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
Well whoever or whatever created it, proves that an objective reality is beyond what your human eye can see.
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@Tarik
The dictionary records and defines words.
The dictionary doesn't explain the physiological process of word and accumulated data production....For that you require another text book.
And you typically, ignored my question.
And the Sun seemingly rises and sets, but it is us that go around and around.....And as far as we are able to know this is a reality....And in this context therefore a known fact, and a statement thereof.
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@zedvictor4
So what textbook you know would make the bold claim that objective and subjective things are subject to the same creative process? If that’s the case then what’s the deviation?
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@Tarik
So what actually are the objective and subjective things that you refer to?
And more importantly, where do they come from and what would be the two separate processes that generate them?
And what do you mean by deviation?
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@zedvictor4
So what actually are the objective and subjective things that you refer to?
Facts and opinions
And more importantly, where do they come from and what would be the two separate processes that generate them?
Facts stems from truth and opinions stem from emotional appeal.
And what do you mean by deviation?
Difference
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@Tarik
Facts and opinions stem from knowledge, that is acquired and stored data.
The application of knowledge, as facts or opinions, are all processed and output from the same database.
The basis of truth and emotional appeal is also derived from the same database of knowledge.
Variation in content is the only deviation within the process.
We use words to define and we use words to define words....With which we express factual knowledge or opinions or hypotheses etc etc.
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@zedvictor4
Facts and opinions stem from knowledge, that is acquired and stored data.
Not true, facts existed before knowledge and opinions have nothing to do with knowledge, I refer back to my singing example as proof of this.
The application of knowledge, as facts or opinions, are all processed and output from the same database.
Which is?
Variation in content is the only deviation within the process.
What do you mean by content?
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@Tarik
Nope...Stuff existed before we acquired the knowledge to understand it.
Acquiring the ability to understand stuff is an internal process....Once we have acquired, understood and converted stuff to stored data/knowledge, we can then attribute bits of stuff with varying labels depending upon the quality and representative value of a bit of stuff/data.....Hence we can conclude with a high degree of certainty that certain data is representative of reality..... We then refer to this as fact.
In short... To be able to say that something is factual, you firstly need a device that is capable of making such choices and decisions.
Shorter still...Stuff is out there and fact is in here.
And content in this instance is a specific data sequence we choose to output as narrative...If we were unable to consider and vary this process, we would just keep repeating ourselves, like a parrot.
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@zedvictor4
Nope...Stuff existed before we acquired the knowledge to understand it.
... Facts qualifies as “stuff” does it not?
Hence we can conclude with a high degree of certainty that certain data is representative of reality..... We then refer to this as fact.
What data isn’t representative of reality?
In short... To be able to say that something is factual, you firstly need a device that is capable of making such choices and decisions.
What device is that?
Shorter still...Stuff is out there and fact is in here.
Why is “stuff” relevant here and how is it different from facts in this context?
And content in this instance is a specific data sequence we choose to output as narrative...If we were unable to consider and vary this process, we would just keep repeating ourselves, like a parrot.
Repeating ourselves like a parrot is still possible regardless.
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@Tarik
1.Fact is an internally generated label we apply to experiences of external stuff.....I use the word "stuff" to differentiate between external reality and internal conclusions.
2. How long is a piece of string....Though internal data and data processing is a functional reality, internally constructed concepts do not necessarily correspond with anything external.
3. The human brain....Our on board computer....That which controls everything we do.
4. See 1 and 2.
5. I do not see the relevance of your last comment. Nonetheless, systems failures or deliberate repetition are two possibilities.
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@zedvictor4
I use the word "stuff" to differentiate between external reality and internal conclusions.
Isn’t that difference simply facts and opinions?
How long is a piece of string....Though internal data and data processing is a functional reality, internally constructed concepts do not necessarily correspond with anything external.
The length of a piece of string isn’t an internally constructed concept.
The human brain
You consider the human brain a device?
I do not see the relevance of your last comment. Nonetheless, systems failures or deliberate repetition are two possibilities.
You didn’t say that previously.
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@Tarik
1. No....Facts and opinions are both internal data constructs, which we make in response to observations of external reality. When sensory mechanisms detect an external stimulus, all processes are internal....Stuff doesn't float around out there, with fact and opinion stickers attached.
2. The length of a piece of string isn't an internally constructed concept.
Of course it is, see 1 above....What else can it be?
3. Yep it's an internal data and systems management unit or device....Organic rather than mechanical.
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@Tarik
Tarik, liberals believe reality is shaped by what they think, instead of conforming their thoughts to reality. So to a liberal, the length of a piece of string is in fact an decided by how long the liberal thinks that piece of string is!
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@Tarik
Facts stems from truth and opinions stem from emotional appeal.
Well stated.
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@ethang5
CONCEPTS =/= OBJECTS
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@zedvictor4
Shorter still...Stuff is out there and fact is in here.
FACT must be rigorously defined and or empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary.
(IFF) your description of an OBJECT (or event) contains any implicitly AXIOLOGICAL statements, like "good" or "bad" (THEN) your description is OPINION
(IFF) your description of an OBJECT (or event) is unfalsifiable and or unverifiable (THEN) your description is indistinguishable from OPINION
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@Tarik
The length of a piece of string isn’t an internally constructed concept.
Is the following statement "fact" or "opinion"?
"Your DebateArt.com user-icon is 2 centimeters square on my computer screen."
You might imagine this is a statement of FACT.
HOWEeveR, my statement is UNFALSIFIABLE.
You have no way of verifying my statement.
This makes it INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM OPINION.