AMA About...

Utilitarianism

"the doctrine that actions are right if they are useful or for the benefit of a majority."

"the doctrine that an action is right insofar as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number should be the guiding principle of conduct."

 "a doctrine that the useful is the good and that the determining consideration of right conduct should be the usefulness of its consequences"

Nothing wrong about this concept! this is a universally acceptable principle...

I would disagree with you on this one.

This means that so far as the end is desired - however we get to that end is justified.   An example might be - we need to get Trump out of the white house - so committing mass fraud is justified.  Furthermore lying about it is justified. and destroying people and their reputations is justified.

In any event, I  reject that the the God of the Bible would find nothing wrong with that principle

FLWR, Brother D, Stephen and Victor need not apply

Dear Eternal I would like to start this discussion if you don't mind, does the Creator have an infinite eternal past? if so, what does an infinite past, no beginning really mean? or how can a thing have no beginning?

Great starting point my friend!

The Creator is both infinite and eternal, however both infinity and eternity are misunderstood. Those terms are not relevant to time at all actually, believe it or not! (so there is no actual infinite regression paradox!). Infinity and eternity exist as a state of equilibrium or a state in which no change occurs. I'll explain below.

Time does not exist eternally as a constant, rather only appears as a measurement alongside the movement of matter and the appearance of form. Where something begins and where something ends is where a linear frame of procession (time frame) occurs. Outside of that is a fixed constant reality where there is no longer a beginning and ending and so no linear progression. It is simply existence as it is where nothing appears and nothing decays and so it is void of what we perceive as a measurement of movement or the passing of events. There is an order of operation in existence as it applies to God's existence as the first cause. Here below is such an order beginning with the very first reality....

- God = awareness (consciousness)

- Conscious activity (awareness/intelligence) = energy (consciousness then energy co-exist)

- Manipulation of energy (where process begins)

- Appearance of form (where a linear time frame begins)

- Time = measurement = now relevant

- Death = no measurement

- No measurement = no time

So basically we have.....God = energy/ energy = creation/ creation = time/ time = measurement/ measurement = linear frame of reference/ linear time frame = a beginning and ending.

Now notice that time is only relevant to the appearance of an event as it appears in order, it has no association to God (or eternity) and so God does not have a beginning point or an ending point. So the Creator exists as a constant not as a linear progression. Imagine a static or fixed Reality where you have the appearance of events, processes, form and time is simply the observation of those appearances and that observation is what we label "time".

Time exists as a measurement of events unfolding but time is an illusion to the backdrop of reality (which is unchanging, static or fixed). The universe, or that which exists within the universe is nothing more than a moving picture play of energy with the birth and death of matter through form on top of a timeless fabric as we observe it as a measurement of "time" (passing).

Preceding the appearance of energy as kinetic energy is the static eternal presence of consciousness, what we call God (without beginning or ending)....the conscious awareness of God out of which all things originate. In this preceding state of existence there is no infinite past or future in terms of how we measure time, because it is independent of the movement of events within the universe. It is indeed the backdrop behind the birth and death scale of material existence. This of course deals with the infinite regression paradox because there is no infinite past in terms of the measurement of time, God does not exist on a linear scale of time. God exists as an eternal fixed state of awareness.

Okay first of all holy crap, I never considered eternity as a state of existence independent of time as you put it so simply. It seems to me that basically you're saying there is an unchanging Reality (fixed state of existence), which invokes changes within that Reality (processes occurring). And then those changes that occur are what dictate time? and the processes that occur are the results of energy which are the results of awareness AKA God/intelligence?

If there is no beginning or ending because there is no infinite past or infinite amount time passing wow, if that is true it answers a lot, and it deals with the confusion and paradox of an infinite past, or an infinite regression. I've never been able to get my head around something existing forever with no beginning but you gave me a solid answer to consider I'll give you props on that,

but could you expand on this before I get back to eternity, we know energy as the only constant in the universe.

Are you saying then that energy is created?

 Awareness is existence, without existence there is no awareness and without awareness there is no existence. The two are inseparable, there cannot be one without the other. For something to exist, there must first be something that which makes it relevant

Nope not at all, energy is not created rather it is generated. What's the difference? well the terms created and generated are two separate things for starters. Creation is the beginning of something so if energy were created that would render energy as something that exists on a linear time scale like form, but energy creates form through processes and so energy precedes processes, in other words it is not a created thing. However there is only one other factor that precedes energy and that is consciousness, what we call God. Energy is generated by conscious activity so both energy and awareness (God) co-exist. And if energy co-exists with God then both energy and God are eternal. And if energy and God are eternal then they exist independent of time.

Energy appears to us as the first cause because we cannot measure what precedes energy, or what co-exists with energy. All we can detect is the movement of energy, that is the vibrational quality of conscious activity what we call kinetic energy.

This seems to be structurally sound, I think I get it in terms of logic and common sense but I'm not sure I fully believe it. Why? I don't know why, maybe it's because it's something I cannot personally observe. 

On the other hand because it makes sense am I forced to accept it? you left me perplexed here, I guess I'll have to think about it. 

I want to get back to some of this but wait a minute, it just occurred to me that you're saying that God has no location or point of reference in time or space? so then consciousness exists independent of form?

Hold on now, it is the very fact that you CAN observe it, is what makes it relevant to you. You are observing it! we're just moving away from your personal observation point to a universal omnipresent scale of Reality. 

Now this is where it gets interesting, to isolate consciousness there must be form! if conscious awareness is to have any point of reference to a specific location it must be confined to a form within creation. Consciousness then must be isolated to have an individual experience as one perceiving time and space within that simulation through a body. This creates individual perception obviously. If God wants a soul for example, to experience Its creation God would have to confine that conscious soul to a body within a created world. This is where we see consciousness existing within bodies within our universe, which of course creates the illusion that consciousness is dependent upon form, or created by a brain. But actuality it is the opposite, the body and brain simply confine conscious experience to a located point of reference they do not create consciousness they simply conduct it as components, but consciousness precedes any bodies within creation. This means that the soul first originates with God not any embodiment.

Moving on are you basically saying then that the soul and God are essentially of the same nature? or of the same substance?

 I will get back to you a bit later on, this is a very interesting discussion.