Why the Attitude!?

Author: EtrnlVw ,

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  • EtrnlVw
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    Atheists, why is it you feel that Theism as a proposition to be something you perceive as absurd or ridiculous? the reactions and comments through all the years I've been involved in these discussions basically tell me that creation as a philosophical option is regarded by atheists as something that is unintelligent (stupidity), influenced primarily through indoctrination (and wishful thinking) or the results of mental issues (that's my fav lol)...
    I'd like to know what is so superior about interpreting the universe as a product of matter rather than a product of intelligent work, I mean it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person's estimations. Maybe Theism isn't that absurd, unintelligent or just the products of wishful thinking? The topics I've created recently serve to provide some decent guidelines of how the universe is interpreted as a product of God without the need for stupidity, indoctrination and wishing things to be the case.

    Even "if" Theists were indoctrinated, stupid and or mentally ill none of those factors justifies the rejection of Theism as a strong proposition. Are religions and their assessments and rules stupid? it's possible I suppose but......it is completely irrelevant to whether or not God exists, so what's with the negative attitude towards it? why be so adamant about something that could have some good reasons to consider? possibilities (logical possibilities) should always be looked into as worthy to be considered. It's almost as if atheists have been programed/brainwashed to automatically assume anything related to God is just nonsense, and to me this seems to foster close-mindedness to the point where any other options are just off the table if it doesn't coddle materialism or anti-theism.
    And TBH there are only two options! and interpreting the universe as matter being the fundamental substance of the universe is not that intelligent, not that thought provoking and not that superior. IMO it doesn't take much thought or consideration to adopt such a worldview so it makes me wonder how such a mindset that anything related to Theism is just inferior.

    Maybe nobody will admit to that but that is my assessment and no, this does not include all atheists but it's a general observation. All you have to do is follow any topic in this religious forum and you see anger, sarcasm, mocking, pride, smug comments, contention, rudeness, vulgar attitudes, hatred, close-mindedness all directed at topics related to God or anything of the like.
    Now to be fair to atheists I am well aware of how you've been treated, at least in the past but theists of all kinds have also been persecuted so that doesn't just apply to atheists. I'm not stupid, I'm well informed of how snot-nosed religious people are prone to condemn unbelievers and anyone that doesn't support their special ideas of the world. I'm sick of that too, but at some point we all need to move past that and be open-minded of each others knowledge. In todays world, it's not so much the case where any of you atheists are being ridiculed or persecuted and actually it seems to be more the case that Theists are ridiculed especially in what seems to be a majority of a secular environment.

    If we get past the immaturity and mistakes of humans and look squarely at the only two opposing propositions being offered, or that are available, then it would make this a much more approachable subject. Being stupid from either side of the coin does not effect the reality of either premise, so there should never be any presumptuous attitudes towards people that become an obstacle of considering either view.

    Why do I even care what you think? well it doesn't really matter in terms of who you are as a person or how you lead your own life. I really only care because I'd rather you see the truth behind the universe and what the implications are for you as a soul. I know that when your physical body dies you'll be present within the next experience and so I know that you could have been apart of something much greater than what you thought was possible, or at minimum aware of it and prepared for it. You could have used your time here to extend your relations beyond what you thought were the limits of what you assumed exists. This does not condemn you in any way though, this is not about judging or condemnation but purely about my desire that all souls know how beautiful creation is and how dynamic the Creator is and how that could relate to you personally. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    I'm only in this because I have a passion for you guys, that's it. I mean I love the exchanges to be open to learning new things and different perspectives but believe me when I say I deeply care and have no ill will towards atheists. Quite the contrary. 
    I don't get to express that very often because one, it sounds stupid and two I'm usually defending myself from a position of being treated as inferior because of my beliefs per say. But to be perfectly open, transparent and honest I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the atheist.
    I love my fellow believer but I've spent plenty of time with them in real life lol, that's not my main interest here. 
  • FLRW
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    l will let Albert Einstein answer for me (I'm related to him through the Koch family). He said, “The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.”
  • Tradesecret
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    Hence the great Einstein reveals that at the end of the day he is ignorant and a fool.  What a sad way to go. 

    Intelligent people at least try and understand the other person's view before coming to a conclusion. If Einstein really did say that - then it ought to lower rational and reasonable and thinking people's view of him.  For it makes him out to be not only a fool but a bigot as well.  Personally, I would like to read the context of what he wrote before I form my view.  

    And I would suggest others to do so as well before forming opinions and conclusions. 
  • FLRW
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    Do a little research. The so-called "God letter" was written in 1954 and was expected to fetch $1.5m (£1.2m) at auction in New York.
    The Nobel Prize-winning scientist, then 74, wrote the one-and-a-half page note to German philosopher Eric Gutkind in response to one of his works.
    It is seen as a key statement in the debate between science and religion.
    "This remarkably candid, private letter was written a year before Einstein's death and remains the most fully articulated expression of his religious and philosophical views," a statement from Christie's says.
    It fetched almost double the auction house's predicted price of between $1m-1.5m
    In the letter, written in his native German, Einstein takes issue with the belief in God.
    "The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses," he writes. "The Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends."
    It continues: "No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can [for me] change anything about this."

  • Tradesecret
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    IT simply confirms what I wrote before.  

    "No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can [for me] change anything about this."
    That is just about as clear a statement of bigotry and intentional ignorance that you will find. 

    Imagine if President Trump made such a statement about the elections.  The media would be all over him like a rash using it to confirm their position about him. 


  • FLRW
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    Religious people are less intelligent on average than atheists because faith is an instinct and clever people are better at rising above their instincts, researchers have claimed.
    The theory — called the 'Intelligence-Mismatch Association Model' — was proposed by a pair of authors who set out to explain why numerous studies over past decades have found religious people to have lower average intelligence than people who do not believe in a god.

    A 2013 analysis by University of Rochester found “a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity” in 53 out of 63 historic studies.
    A negative correlation between intelligence and religion makes sense if religion is considered an instinct, and intelligence the ability to rise above one's instincts, say researchers Edward Dutton and Dimitri van der Linden in their  paper published in 2018.


  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @FLRW
    Religious people are less intelligent on average than atheists

    What does that have to do with whether or not God exists? did you read through the OP?

    because faith is an instinct and clever people are better at rising above their instincts

    If stupid people think they are clever enough to rise above their intuition and instincts perhaps they are not fit for their environments. Even animals aren't that inept.

    found religious people to have lower average intelligence than people who do not believe in a god

    What does that say about you, you appear to have a very low level of intelligence, actually you do a very good job at lending support for my topics lol.

    and intelligence the ability to rise above one's instincts

    You realize this statement is nonsensical right? or do you?

    A negative correlation between intelligence and religion

    If every Theist in the world were stupid it would be completely irrelevant in justifying your own worldview.


  • Tradesecret
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    Not sure what you are saying. 

    On average. Woopy doo.

    This still means that there are plenty of dumb atheists and plenty of intelligent religious people.  

    I would be intrigued to know whether these particular researchers considered themselves religious or not.   It would seem strange if they were religious because it throws doubt on whether they were smart enough to produce such a study. And if they were not religious - then the study would need to be discounted simply because of their underlying bias. 

    Either way - such a study is clearly unhelpful and would only be utilized by people hopeful that they can ram an opinion through to the keeper.  

    Personally, I think the fact that you referred to this study demonstrates a clear line of doubt about your own views.  


  • drafterman
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    Atheists, why is it you feel that Theism as a proposition to be something you perceive as absurd or ridiculous?
    In the most generic sense, theism (the believe in a deity) is not an absurd or ridiculous proposition. I find specific propositions of various religious to be absurd or ridiculous, on a case-by-case basis.

    the reactions and comments through all the years I've been involved in these discussions basically tell me that creation as a philosophical option is regarded by atheists as something that is unintelligent (stupidity), influenced primarily through indoctrination (and wishful thinking) or the results of mental issues (that's my fav lol)...
    I would certainly concur that religion is a form of wishful thinking, one that is quite indisputably drilled into many children as a form of indoctrination. 

    I'd like to know what is so superior about interpreting the universe as a product of matter rather than a product of intelligent work, I mean it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person's estimations.
    The flaw here is you think it simply comes down to what is more obvious. Clearly creation is the "obvious" assumption because that is what humanity, on the whole, has found "obvious" about the world around us. But as we actually apply critical thinking and make observations of the world, it seems that - amazingly - the universe does not find itself bound by the limits or wishes of human cognition. It has become increasingly clear that what is "obvious" to our brains is simply what promotes survival in macroscopic, Earth-like conditions. The revelations of science show us that, outside these narrow constraints the universe is rather bizarre and counter-intuitive. The observations of relativity and quantum mechanics are some of the most non-obvious statements ever to be formulated by man. And yet the most accurate in describing the world around us.

    Maybe Theism isn't that absurd, unintelligent or just the products of wishful thinking? The topics I've created recently serve to provide some decent guidelines of how the universe is interpreted as a product of God without the need for stupidity, indoctrination and wishing things to be the case.

    Even "if" Theists were indoctrinated, stupid and or mentally ill none of those factors justifies the rejection of Theism as a strong proposition. Are religions and their assessments and rules stupid?
    Some of them are, certainly.

    it's possible I suppose but......it is completely irrelevant to whether or not God exists, so what's with the negative attitude towards it? why be so adamant about something that could have some good reasons to consider?
    You do realize that religion, for the most part, has a history steeped in oppression, persecution, inquisition, and judgement toward those that do not accept it in whole cloth? Your question makes sense only when considered in a vacuum ignorant of the history of mankind on this planet.

    possibilities (logical possibilities) should always be looked into as worthy to be considered. It's almost as if atheists have been programed/brainwashed to automatically assume anything related to God is just nonsense, and to me this seems to foster close-mindedness to the point where any other options are just off the table if it doesn't coddle materialism or anti-theism.
    Or perhaps maybe it is the case that I have been debating about religion for more than the median user age on this site and have yet to see new arguments or information. The quickness in which I reject the god belief is less an automatic response because of brainwashing and close-mindedness and more an automatic response because I've probably heard it before. Why waste time in addressing already debunked nonsense?

    And TBH there are only two options! and interpreting the universe as matter being the fundamental substance of the universe is not that intelligent, not that thought provoking and not that superior. IMO it doesn't take much thought or consideration to adopt such a worldview so it makes me wonder how such a mindset that anything related to Theism is just inferior.
    Depends on how you qualify a world view as superior or inferior. Personally I consider superior the worldview that is most in line with how the world actually is.

    Maybe nobody will admit to that but that is my assessment and no, this does not include all atheists but it's a general observation. All you have to do is follow any topic in this religious forum and you see anger, sarcasm, mocking, pride, smug comments, contention, rudeness, vulgar attitudes, hatred, close-mindedness all directed at topics related to God or anything of the like.
    Now to be fair to atheists I am well aware of how you've been treated, at least in the past but theists of all kinds have also been persecuted so that doesn't just apply to atheists.
    So because theists have been dicks to each other atheists should ignore how theists have been dicks to atheists? No thank you.

    I'm not stupid, I'm well informed of how snot-nosed religious people are prone to condemn unbelievers and anyone that doesn't support their special ideas of the world. I'm sick of that too, but at some point we all need to move past that and be open-minded of each others knowledge. In todays world, it's not so much the case where any of you atheists are being ridiculed or persecuted and actually it seems to be more the case that Theists are ridiculed especially in what seems to be a majority of a secular environment.
    Depends on where you are and live. Sweden? Sure. In American, atheists are considered one of the least trusthworthy demographic.

    If we get past the immaturity and mistakes of humans and look squarely at the only two opposing propositions being offered, or that are available, then it would make this a much more approachable subject. Being stupid from either side of the coin does not effect the reality of either premise, so there should never be any presumptuous attitudes towards people that become an obstacle of considering either view.

    Why do I even care what you think? well it doesn't really matter in terms of who you are as a person or how you lead your own life. I really only care because I'd rather you see the truth behind the universe and what the implications are for you as a soul. I know that when your physical body dies you'll be present within the next experience and so I know that you could have been apart of something much greater than what you thought was possible, or at minimum aware of it and prepared for it. You could have used your time here to extend your relations beyond what you thought were the limits of what you assumed exists. This does not condemn you in any way though, this is not about judging or condemnation but purely about my desire that all souls know how beautiful creation is and how dynamic the Creator is and how that could relate to you personally. 

  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Einstein's views on religion hold no more weight than anyone elses. Not sure why he makes it into arguments on theism 
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    And you don't have an attitude?
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Atheists think that theists are dumb and vice versa....What's new Einstein?
  • janesix
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    My mother raised me and my sisters in an atheist/materialist world. She, and then then her daughters, ridiculed and laughed at anything to do with religion, spirituality or paranormal. It wasn't until well into adulthood that I had second thoughts(or really ever thought about it at all). I didn't know my dad believed in God, or that my sister was a Christian until I was an adult and religious myself. I actually thought when I was younger that people who believed in that "stuff" were not very intelligent, and that it was superstitious mumbo-jumbo for sheep. 

    I think that most people just believe what they are told when they are young, and their attitudes are hard to change. 

    My materialist attitude is so ingrained that Ive carried it with me even to this day. I still look for the nuts and bolts of how everything "works"(which is good, but it tends to be a material answer I always look for). 

    Science is the modern day religion. Most atheists don't even understand it, they just repeat the watered-down versions  of whatever they hear. In an argument or discussion, I always know what they are going to say. 

    The one thing I do know is that nobody knows what the F is going on. I bet someone up there is laughing at our hubris.
  • EtrnlVw
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    Great post and very interesting, thanks for the insights.

     I still look for the nuts and bolts of how everything "works"

    Unfortunately it's usually assumed that this conflicts with Theism but really it doesn't. There's nothing about wanting to understand all the mechanics of the universe that is contradicting to believing in a Creator. That's just my opinion though because I'm interested in the same things and I've never been an atheist. 

    The one thing I do know is that nobody knows what the F is going on. 

    I can see why you would believe that, especially with such a vast array of information and seemingly contradicting religious sources and a method of study limited to just the material aspect of things but it's not really that complicated and there's been a lot of intelligent beings that have highlighted factual bits of knowledge. Once the pieces are all sorted out and put in the correct spaces we have pretty clear picture. You just need someone who can put all the pieces in the correct order or maybe you configure it yourself. 
  • janesix
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    I sometimes wish I had a "guide" or guru of sorts to help me put the pieces together. I sort of do, but I'm not sure who he/she/it is, I call it the Universe, there is a definite entity helping and teaching me. But I have a thick skull, and I tend to go over and over the same bits all the time. It has been a ten year process for me. 

    I guess though, if the answers were handed to me, I would miss the mystery which is a significant and pleasant, sometimes exciting part of life. 

    I guess it would be boring if we knew everything.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @drafterman
    In the most generic sense, theism (the believe in a deity) is not an absurd or ridiculous proposition.

    That is helpful, I'm glad to hear that.

    I find specific propositions of various religious to be absurd or ridiculous, on a case-by-case basis.

    This makes sense, I can agree with that. I don't think it tarnishes the reality of God existing and so I wouldn't personally put much emphasis on it.

    I would certainly concur that religion is a form of wishful thinking, one that is quite indisputably drilled into many children as a form of indoctrination.

    It may be drilled into children (or may not be) but that doesn't mean religion is a product of wishful thinking. In many cases, religions are built around observation not wishful thinking. I've been trying to dispel this presumptuous notion. Atheists wouldn't know, but spirituality opposes the natural response of what people "wish" to be the case.

    The flaw here is you think it simply comes down to what is more obvious.

    That's not a flaw, every man is free to interpret the world how they see fits with reality. This goes the same for your personal interpretation. To me, it's obvious that the universe is a product of intelligence... and indoctrination, wishful thinking and what I want play no role in that assessment. You might assume it does, as long as you understand it's your own speculation.

    Clearly creation is the "obvious" assumption because that is what humanity, on the whole, has found "obvious" about the world around us.

    No,  you leap to conclusions without even attempting to ask. This is part of the problem and why these discussions are so monotonous. The fact that humanity, on the whole, interprets the universe as products of intelligence is wonderful but it has nothing to do with me and my own interpretations. Basically I could care less what humanity thinks.

    But as we actually apply critical thinking and make observations of the world

    Lol oh here we go....

    it seems that - amazingly - the universe does not find itself bound by the limits or wishes of human cognition.

    Why would it?

    It has become increasingly clear that what is "obvious" to our brains is simply what promotes survival in macroscopic, Earth-like conditions.

    When I say that it is obvious, I mean that it is obvious once we apply critical thinking, logic and commonsense that it becomes obvious the universe is a product of a Creator. Now I admit, that's my own interpretation but one that is based on reality.

    The revelations of science show us that, outside these narrow constraints the universe is rather bizarre and counter-intuitive. The observations of relativity and quantum mechanics are some of the most non-obvious statements ever to be formulated by man. And yet the most accurate in describing the world around us.

    What I find, is that quantum mechanics aligns with my own propositions about creation. And since science is a neutral study there's no need to assume that anything it establishes is a product of materialism or atheism. What science "shows us" is how things work and by what processes, not why such processes occurred in the first place. Science can be interpreted as understanding the works of God, I don't see quantum mechanics or science as anything in contrast to my interpretation of the world.
    Atheists assume that scientific studies and the scientific method support materialism and atheism, which is absolute nonsense. They get this silly idea from atheistic preachers who try and use theories of science to undermine religion lol, they think that because they can use science to show how things operate that they can use it to peddle their nonsensical worldviews. Science doesn't make any claims about Gods existence OR nonexistence, that's not its field of study.
    So let me get this out of the way now, the scientific method, evolution and scientific studies are compatible with Theism.

    You do realize that religion, for the most part, has a history steeped in oppression, persecution, inquisition, and judgement toward those that do not accept it in whole cloth?

    I thought I made that pretty clear. This applies to both believers and nonbelievers. So the attitude of atheists towards theists is moot.

    Your question makes sense only when considered in a vacuum ignorant of the history of mankind on this planet.

    Sure, maybe your reading comprehension needs help? lets read what I wrote again...

    "Now to be fair to atheists I am well aware of how you've been treated, at least in the past but theists of all kinds have also been persecuted so that doesn't just apply to atheists. I'm not stupid, I'm well informed of how snot-nosed religious people are prone to condemn unbelievers and anyone that doesn't support their special ideas of the world. I'm sick of that too, but at some point we all need to move past that and be open-minded of each others knowledge. In todays world, it's not so much the case where any of you atheists are being ridiculed or persecuted and actually it seems to be more the case that Theists are ridiculed especially in what seems to be a majority of a secular environment."

    It goes both way but in forums like these it seems to go way more towards Theists being treated as stupid or mentally ill. It simply gets in the way of productivity and is uncalled for. 

    Or perhaps maybe it is the case that I have been debating about religion for more than the median user age on this site and have yet to see new arguments or information.

    Oh please son, I've been in this game for more than 15 years and I'm 43 years of age. The information and topics I've been launching are certainly fresh ideas. I know they are because I've been around the block a few hundred times.

    The quickness in which I reject the god belief is less an automatic response because of brainwashing and close-mindedness and more an automatic response because I've probably heard it before. Why waste time in addressing already debunked nonsense?

    Just because you believe you've debunked a few religious ideas you think that makes your worldview anymore legit? and because you don't find religions convincing that puts a cap on your preconceived materialistic assumptions about the world? if that satisfies your intellect so be it. It's a shame but whatever.
    You don't even need religion to put together a theistic interpretation of the universe so you have to do more than debunk ideas of other people. For me, I'm not satisfied with religion (even though there is valuable information available) and I'm certainly not satisfied with accepting materialism or atheism because they are absurd estimations. So I certainly evaluate all the information available and consider what is useful but I put the pieces together for myself, if I thought for one second that flawed religious ideals were the end of consideration I'd be quite disturbed. 
    I've seen your posts throughout the years, they are typical examples of presumptuous atheistic attitudes and behavior trying to hijack science to support them, it's ludicrous. Your views are not that complicated, there's only two options and your opinion falls on one side. Big deal. There's many realistic ideas within the Theistic spectrum which involves not just the universe, but every aspect of human experience and so to say it's all nonsense is not very thought provoking.

    Depends on how you qualify a world view as superior or inferior. Personally I consider superior the worldview that is most in line with how the world actually is.

    That goes for you and me both. But to bring in an attitude of superiority in a neutral discussion or debate only serves to undermine being open-minded. And without humility and flexibility there is no room for being open minded, and what's the point if the people who claim they are the "free thinkers" are no longer open minded?

    So because theists have been dicks to each other atheists should ignore how theists have been dicks to atheists? No thank you.

    Is it possible you missed my point there lol??

  • ludofl3x
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    What I find, is that quantum mechanics aligns with my own propositions about creation. And since science is a neutral study there's no need to assume that anything it establishes is a product of materialism or atheism. What science "shows us" is how things work and by what processes, not why such processes occurred in the first place. Science can be interpreted as understanding the works of God, I don't see quantum mechanics or science as anything in contrast to my interpretation of the world.
    Atheists assume that scientific studies and the scientific method support materialism and atheism, which is absolute nonsense. They get this silly idea from atheistic preachers who try and use theories of science to undermine religion lol, they think that because they can use science to show how things operate that they can use it to peddle their nonsensical worldviews. Science doesn't make any claims about Gods existence OR nonexistence, that's not its field of study.
    So let me get this out of the way now, the scientific method, evolution and scientific studies are compatible with Theism.

    TL:DR version: god of the gaps. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    Whatever you want to label it. It's either compatible or not...call it whatever you want. The "God of the Gaps" label doesn't do anything to the fact that God fits in the gaps because it works, not because it's untrue. I like how secular people make up these little labels and and so-called  fallacies and post them as if they were some kind of an argument. It's cute. 
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    You say that as if your very wordy shoulder shrugs and pretending to know something everyone else doesn't counts as an argument, when you have literally demonstrated nothing at all.  You're not making arguments. YOu're making assertions. And like it or not, all of yur arguments boil down to god of the gaps, bro. QUantum mechanics is an incredibly young field of science which you somehow pretend to understand by saying "yeah, that's how god is doing it!", plus arguing from incredulity and a healthy dose of anthropocentrism. 

    Solve the problem: demonstrate the existence of any creator without saying "PROCESSES DON"T START THEMSELVES!" or some version thereof. How can I know for sure if god exists? You once told me I could theoretically take a space ship to the dimension where there are planets that are basically belief-specific heavens. How can (a) I accept that as true and (b) you type that with a straight face?
  • drafterman
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    drafterman
    --> @EtrnlVw
    I would certainly concur that religion is a form of wishful thinking, one that is quite indisputably drilled into many children as a form of indoctrination.
    It may be drilled into children (or may not be) but that doesn't mean religion is a product of wishful thinking. In many cases, religions are built around observation not wishful thinking. I've been trying to dispel this presumptuous notion. Atheists wouldn't know, but spirituality opposes the natural response of what people "wish" to be the case.
    I never said it is wishful thinking because it is indoctrination. I am saying that it is both, independently and separately. It is pretty much understood and accepted that humans are predisposed toward superstitious thinking, pareidolia, and wishful thinking. Religion is merely a product of that. (#1)


    The flaw here is you think it simply comes down to what is more obvious.

    That's not a flaw, every man is free to interpret the world how they see fits with reality. This goes the same for your personal interpretation. To me, it's obvious that the universe is a product of intelligence... and indoctrination, wishful thinking and what I want play no role in that assessment. You might assume it does, as long as you understand it's your own speculation.
    It is a flaw because it's false. You assume that everyone is simply assuming the world view based on what is most obvious. While that may be the case for you, I would appreciate it if you did not assume it is the case for me. (#2)


    it seems that - amazingly - the universe does not find itself bound by the limits or wishes of human cognition.

    Why would it?
    That's my question. When you take the universe at face value and accept as true only what is most obvious, that caries with it the implicit assumption that the universe somehow conforms to what is obvious to humans.


    It has become increasingly clear that what is "obvious" to our brains is simply what promotes survival in macroscopic, Earth-like conditions.

    When I say that it is obvious, I mean that it is obvious once we apply critical thinking, logic and commonsense that it becomes obvious the universe is a product of a Creator. Now I admit, that's my own interpretation but one that is based on reality.
    I use the term obvious to be what is apparent and self-evident prior to applying reason or critical thinking. Because that's it's definition.


    The revelations of science show us that, outside these narrow constraints the universe is rather bizarre and counter-intuitive. The observations of relativity and quantum mechanics are some of the most non-obvious statements ever to be formulated by man. And yet the most accurate in describing the world around us.

    What I find, is that quantum mechanics aligns with my own propositions about creation. And since science is a neutral study there's no need to assume that anything it establishes is a product of materialism or atheism. What science "shows us" is how things work and by what processes, not why such processes occurred in the first place. Science can be interpreted as understanding the works of God, I don't see quantum mechanics or science as anything in contrast to my interpretation of the world.
    I haven't presented it as a counter argument to theism or any particular world view other than the world view that the universe is as it appears to the human eye and sensibilities. This, admittedly, was under the assumption you were using term "obvious" in accordance with its common meaning. Now that you've explained what you mean by "obvious" this section of my reply is obsoleted.

    Atheists assume that scientific studies and the scientific method support materialism and atheism, which is absolute nonsense. They get this silly idea from atheistic preachers who try and use theories of science to undermine religion lol, they think that because they can use science to show how things operate that they can use it to peddle their nonsensical worldviews. Science doesn't make any claims about Gods existence OR nonexistence, that's not its field of study.
    So let me get this out of the way now, the scientific method, evolution and scientific studies are compatible with Theism.
    See above. At no point did I present scientific studies as incompatible with theism. (#3)


    You do realize that religion, for the most part, has a history steeped in oppression, persecution, inquisition, and judgement toward those that do not accept it in whole cloth?

    I thought I made that pretty clear. This applies to both believers and nonbelievers. So the attitude of atheists towards theists is moot.
    It applies to both believers and non-believers in the same way that the term "murderer" applies to a person that has murdered 1,000 people as it does to a person that has murdered 1. While both theists and atheists have engaged in the above behavior, theists currently hold the gold medal with respect to duration, intensity, and geographic breadth.


    Your question makes sense only when considered in a vacuum ignorant of the history of mankind on this planet.

    Sure, maybe your reading comprehension needs help? lets read what I wrote again...

    "Now to be fair to atheists I am well aware of how you've been treated, at least in the past but theists of all kinds have also been persecuted so that doesn't just apply to atheists. I'm not stupid, I'm well informed of how snot-nosed religious people are prone to condemn unbelievers and anyone that doesn't support their special ideas of the world. I'm sick of that too, but at some point we all need to move past that and be open-minded of each others knowledge. In todays world, it's not so much the case where any of you atheists are being ridiculed or persecuted and actually it seems to be more the case that Theists are ridiculed especially in what seems to be a majority of a secular environment."
    And yet, despite that apparent awareness, you ask a question that only makes sense when considered in a vacuum ignorant of the history of mankind on this planet.


    Or perhaps maybe it is the case that I have been debating about religion for more than the median user age on this site and have yet to see new arguments or information.

    Oh please son, I've been in this game for more than 15 years and I'm 43 years of age. The information and topics I've been launching are certainly fresh ideas. I know they are because I've been around the block a few hundred times.
    Nothing you've said here is novel or fresh.


    The quickness in which I reject the god belief is less an automatic response because of brainwashing and close-mindedness and more an automatic response because I've probably heard it before. Why waste time in addressing already debunked nonsense?

    Just because you believe you've debunked a few religious ideas you think that makes your worldview anymore legit?
    I have never claimed to debunk any religious ideas. My point here is you interpret the dismissal by atheists of theistic ideas of closemindedness and I have provided and alternate explanation. (#4)

    and because you don't find religions convincing that puts a cap on your preconceived materialistic assumptions about the world? if that satisfies your intellect so be it. It's a shame but whatever.
    You don't even need religion to put together a theistic interpretation of the universe so you have to do more than debunk ideas of other people. For me, I'm not satisfied with religion (even though there is valuable information available) and I'm certainly not satisfied with accepting materialism or atheism because they are absurd estimations. So I certainly evaluate all the information available and consider what is useful but I put the pieces together for myself, if I thought for one second that flawed religious ideals were the end of consideration I'd be quite disturbed. 
    I've seen your posts throughout the years, they are typical examples of presumptuous atheistic attitudes and behavior trying to hijack science to support them, it's ludicrous. Your views are not that complicated, there's only two options and your opinion falls on one side. Big deal. There's many realistic ideas within the Theistic spectrum which involves not just the universe, but every aspect of human experience and so to say it's all nonsense is not very thought provoking.
    I'd be interested in any specific post or view of mine you can think of where you think I've hijacked science.


    So because theists have been dicks to each other atheists should ignore how theists have been dicks to atheists? No thank you.

    Is it possible you missed my point there lol??
    If there was a point there, you did not make it "obvious" enough.

    At this point you may be wondering what is with the numbering I scattered throughout this reply. I did this to highly exactly how atheists develop and form this "attitude" against theists that you are lamenting. And I am using this as a constructive opportunity to show exactly how this happens.

    #1 - In this exchange I merely said that theism is both indoctrinated and a form of wishful thinking. I did not assign any relationship between the two and certainly did not assign and form of causality. Yet you replied to my comment as if I did. That is, you created an argument I did not create myself, then assigned it to me as if I had created it. This is frustrating because now I have to reply and respond to points I haven't made, spending time trying to set the record straight that you have fouled up with false attribution.

    #2 - In your original post you have claimed that "it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person's estimations", implying that people simply adopt a world view based on what is most obvious to them. I have attempted to refute this, but you have decided to double down. You don't know what my world view is and you certainly don't know how I have arrived at it. Your claim that people based world views on what is most obvious is an assumption of yours and I explicitly refute that my world view is based in such a way. Now, you may consider me "blind" to my own speculation, but denying a person the autonomy in setting their own world view, and instead insisting it must be what you say it is, is insulting and not conducive to conversation. If you are going to assume what my world view is and how it came to be, then this undercuts any notion that your post here is a genuine inquiry and renders irrelevant any attempt at conversation. You might as well be conversing with yourself.

    #3 - As with #1, you have assigned to me an argument I haven't made. In this case, that science is incompatible with theism.

    #4 - Again, false claims and attributions. You take something I said, twist it and push it further than intended, then throw it back to me as if it is something I've said. If you are going to make my arguments for me, what is my role in this conversation?

    All of these are how and why atheists develop "attitudes" in these kinds of conversations. Repeated over dozens, hundreds, if not thousands of times, any given atheist is then likely to come to the conversation with this attitude already set up.

    So, if I am developing an attitude it is because you aren't actually responding or listening to the things I've written. You've taken arguments and stances I haven't asserted and attributed them to me. I'd just as soon you reply to what I've actually said and only that.

  • ethang5
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    ethang5
    --> @Polytheist-Witch @Tradesecret
    That is just about as clear a statement of bigotry and intentional ignorance that you will find. 
    Imagine if President Trump made such a statement about the elections.  The media would be all over him like a rash using it to confirm their position about him. 
    Not just the media, but FLRW himself would be among them.

    Einstein's views on religion hold no more weight than anyone elses. Not sure why he makes it into arguments on theism 
    Some people use him to do their thinking for them. 

  • janesix
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    --> @ethang5
    You are correct so often.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @janesix
    Another pat on the back for the E man...He'll be getting a complex if you're not careful.

    And still no one has ever proven the existence of a GOD.
  • janesix
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    --> @zedvictor4
    I don't need any more "proof" than I already have.