It's also amusing that It's lunatic who changed how his role works yet I'm the one that gets sussed for it. Anything I think it's increasingly clear that Lunatic and Elminster are scum buddies. I just don't buy their interactions as town. It reads like scum planning things in plain view.
United States House of Representatives Mafia DP1
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@Bullish
I meant for any B, Lunatic dies.
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@drafterman
It's also amusing that It's lunatic who changed how his role works yet I'm the one that gets sussed for it. Anything I think it's increasingly clear that Lunatic and Elminster are scum buddies. I just don't buy their interactions as town. It reads like scum planning things in plain view.
If you think me and elminster are scum buddies there is no hope for you lol. You had a clear way to make sure mikal was going to die. If you were really town, and genuinely thought mikal was scum, you would go through with that method to make sure he will die.
If you think I lied about my role, rather than actually mis-understood pie, why would I tell you and everyone else publicly that instead of just stick with the orignal narrative? What benefit does that yield me as scum?
Also what's the point of lynching elminster anymore? The original point was because you thought he was going to throw and just rage quit. He is now helping progress the game and has been playing, and you are still trying to wagon him. If you are town the only explanation is that you are just so stubborn and unwilling to admit that your tunneling is extremely out of whack here.
At the moment, it seems pretty scummy that you were so eager to back out of proving your role which in a way that literally results in the thing you want; Mikal dying. You are trying to make the argument that a role that says "If I target you and you have an action, that action can't be stopped." If you weren't lying about that, nothing should prevent the vig frmo going through. However you were setting in the seeds that this wasn't going to work before I even acknowledged mis-understanding pie (which again doesn't effect the wording of your own role in post 10).
"But I predict either I'll be dead or Lunatic will concoct some story about why it didn't happen, most likely involving me being scum."
It's almost like your setting up for the plan to fail because you aren't actually the role you said you are and know it will fail.
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@Vader
I buy that Lunatic's role is a 1x variant, but the role itself is essentially a Weak Vig. The fact that it's 1x the variant makes it so an underpowered role.
It's almost like it makes sense there would be another role to fill in the gap of that weakness; IE strengthener lol. So why is drafter so convinced his role won't work?
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@whiteflame
@warren42
@Speedrace
What do you think about drafter setting up the strengthened vig plan for failure and then literally backing out of it a few posts later? What do you think about his continued tunneling of mikal even though his main worry was mikal throwing, even though mikal has contributed all throughout the day phase?
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@Bullish
If drafter flips scum you are next. :)
Alright, I'm all caught up. I don't have any experience with the Strengthener role, but this strikes me as an odd circumstance because, at least as I read it, the Strengthener effectively nullifies any abilities that would attempt to block, redirect or protect against a given ability. That covers a lot of ground, but if the weak Vig functions as Lunatic says it does, then there's an additional element: just visiting him functionally nullifies his ability. Unless the Strengthener role either nullifies anyone's ability to visit him (it doesn't) or somehow covers for what is essentially a functional role block that doesn't come in the form of a specific role (I guess this is possible, but it would essentially have to nullify an element of the weak Vig, which... is weird), the issue with the weak Vig will persist.
So, how do I look at what happened here behaviorally? While I was myself unclear on what Lunatic meant from the outset, it appears as though he had reason to leave out whatever info he could about the weakness of his Vig role so that mafia couldn't exploit it by just visiting him to prevent the Vig NK. I understand that, though I probably would have done my best to just keep that hidden if it were me, since it's bound to be exploited now. I also understand Draft's frustration, if only because he didn't know about this element and, therefore, didn't know that there was a good chance that the Vig NK wouldn't go through regardless of Strengthening it. He saw the initial compromise as a promise that this NK would happen, and now he's unclear whether that can be upheld. I'm not going to condone efforts to lynch now that that compromise has been, itself, compromised, but at least I can understand where everyone's coming from. Doesn't really help me determine who to lynch, but didn't expect this to work out into an obvious lynch.
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@Lunatic
What do you think about drafter setting up the strengthened vig plan for failure and then literally backing out of it a few posts later? What do you think about his continued tunneling of mikal even though his main worry was mikal throwing, even though mikal has contributed all throughout the day phase?
Didn't even see this post before I started writing. I'm not a fan of this effort from Draft, and I do think it has anti-town utility, but I don't think he's scum. Still, might be a reason to lynch him by itself. I'm willing to consider it, but I'd like to hear from others first.
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@Elminster
I am also willing to lynch whiteflame I think. His post 277 was an extemely wishy washy attempt to over complicate the strengthener/vig dynamic the way drafter is doing, justifying drafter's irrational behavior, while in post 278 playing the other side of the fence saying draft is behaving anti town. He seems extremely willing flip flop here in a way that presents himself as neutral, but willing to go either way. Drafter IS anti town but we can worry about him later. He doesn't actually have any real support for lynching you so his vote is literally wasted. Whiteflame isn't just being non-committal, this is some real fence sitting, which is the next step. I do actually scum read him here.
unvote, vtl whiteflame.
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@Lunatic
...Dude, the entire point of my #277 post was to try to make sense of the back and forth that I could barely make sense of in the moment. If you don't like it, that's fine, but that's what I saw. I can see how this played out for both sides. I can understand why each of you did what you did.
I also can understand why we wouldn't want this infighting to persist, and it looks like it will because neither Draft nor Elm is backing down. I made that clear earlier because, frankly, I'm done with this BS. While I generally don't like threats of forfeiting, I absolutely dislike efforts to tunnel someone in the first DP, especially when the someone that they are tunneling is actively threatening to leave the game. I'm frustrated by it. I see it as actively dividing town. I can understand why he's frustrated with Elm, but that's not an excuse for turning this DP into what it has become, which is largely just an opportunity for them to air grievances at each other. If you think it's scummy to want to end that, then I guess I'm scummy.
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@Lunatic
What do you think about drafter setting up the strengthened vig plan for failure and then literally backing out of it a few posts later? What do you think about his continued tunneling of mikal even though his main worry was mikal throwing, even though mikal has contributed all throughout the day phase?
1. Drafter being paranoid
2. Drafter being anti-Mikal lol
I can see it as him being like it's gonna fail so he can blame you when it does fail but who knows
Do you think it means he's scum with Mikal?
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@whiteflame
While I generally don't like threats of forfeiting, I absolutely dislike efforts to tunnel someone in the first DP, especially when the someone that they are tunneling is actively threatening to leave the game.
He's been playing actively, pushing reads, assisting in getting claims and drafter still is "policy lynching" him for throwing still. It's not just anti-town because it's tunnel vision, he's literally being a hypocrite. No one should be okay with drafter doing this, or even understanding of his motives anymore. At the start, yes, but not now, after mikals been contributing.
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@Lunatic
My post 277 was entirely about initial motives, not current ones. In fact, I'm actively saying that there's a problem with his current motives. So, apparently, we agree.
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@Lunatic
I also can understand why we wouldn't want this infighting to persist
"Infighting" why would he call it infighting if he doesn't know the affiliations of drafter/elm?
His post 277 was an extemely wishy washy attempt to over complicate the strengthener/vig dynamic the way drafter is doing
I don't think that it was trying to complicate it but I DO think that he's purposefully trying to avoid taking a stance which is scummy
VTL Whiteflame
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@Speedrace
1. Drafter being paranoid
"Paranoid" is a lot nicer of a way of saying stubborn as a mule. It also gives him an excuse to tunnel mikal for reasons that aren't even applicable anymore lol.
2. Drafter being anti-Mikal lol
Then he's literally a waste of space this game. Being anti mikal to the point where he is promising to just perma vote him as he is promising, means he is not trying to actively solve the game or deduce who scum is.
I can see it as him being like it's gonna fail so he can blame you when it does fail but who knowsDo you think it means he's scum with Mikal?
Mikal is 100% town, I just know it based on his behavior. It was extremely obvious to me when it was fake in the stand mafia vs when it is real. And the way he was pressuring people for activity, questioning whiteflame and grey parrot, but not tunneling either shows he was being open minded. I know he is town like I knew you were town in supas waifu game.
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@whiteflame
My post 277 was entirely about initial motives, not current ones. In fact, I'm actively saying that there's a problem with his current motives. So, apparently, we agree.
We agree insofar as drafter is being anti-town. Where we dis-agree is you are giving him a pass for being anti-town, and are generating an excuse for him.
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@Lunatic
"Paranoid" is a lot nicer of a way of saying stubborn as a mule. It also gives him an excuse to tunnel mikal for reasons that aren't even applicable anymore lol.
My point is why would he set it up for failure as scum if Mikal is town. If drafter is scum then he wants Mikal to get shot, so why say the plan won't work?
Then he's literally a waste of space this game. Being anti mikal to the point where he is promising to just perma vote him as he is promising, means he is not trying to actively solve the game or deduce who scum is.
That's something I see drafter doing as town
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@Lunatic
I haven't given him an excuse for his current behavior. I'm saying he has reason to be frustrated with not knowing the full state of affairs when it came to your weak Vig role. That doesn't mean, and by now I've repeatedly said this, that it justifies putting his vote back on Elm. I wasn't happy with that choice to begin with, and I made myself very clear in that regard.
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@Lunatic
Also, does your PM explicitly say that you are a WEAK Vig?
I am publicly stating my intention to vig drafter tonight. If I die and the kill doesn't go through, you have confirmation drafter is scum. Also if mafia have a roleblocker I am forcing their hand to me tonight leaving investigators free. Win/win.
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@Lunatic
I am 100% on board with the original plan as provided by you, where you are a 1x vig who has guaranteed success unless he is roleblocked.
It is you who changed the parameters of the plan. You voided it, not me. And since my not voting Mikal was contingent on that plan, this is on you.
If you can vouch for the original plan as stated here:
Then I am back on board.
Can you vouch for your original plan?
If not, why would you expect me to still be on board?
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@Lunatic
I am publicly stating my intention to vig drafter tonight. If I die and the kill doesn't go through, you have confirmation drafter is scum. Also if mafia have a roleblocker I am forcing their hand to me tonight leaving investigators free. Win/win.
If you really think Mikal is town, then drafter can't be scum. Drafter as scum would say "ok, sounds like a plan" and then would get a free town kill from your vig. No reason to back out of the plan. Even if he's lying about strengthener, all he has to do is tell Maf to not RB you and then they get a free kill and no one is the wiser
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@Speedrace
My point is why would he set it up for failure as scum if Mikal is town. If drafter is scum then he wants Mikal to get shot, so why say the plan won't work?
My current feeling is that he is lying, or he is tunnel vision townie on mikal and willing to say or do whatever to get him lynched, both are harmful to the town's objective to win.
That's something I see drafter doing as town
Then he is literally being a hypocrite in his reasons for lynching mikal. We don't give other people a pass for hypocritical behavior, why him?
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@Speedrace
Also, does your PM explicitly say that you are a WEAK Vig?
No, that is implied by how my role functions after questioning pie about the mechanics.
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@Lunatic
My current feeling is that he is lying, or he is tunnel vision townie on mikal and willing to say or do whatever to get him lynched, both are harmful to the town's objective to win.
See my other post on him lying. Even if he's lying it doesn't matter because Maf can just not RB you
Now if you're saying you want to kill him because he's being anti-town then that's a different story
Then he is literally being a hypocrite in his reasons for lynching mikal. We don't give other people a pass for hypocritical behavior, why him?
I don't like to lynch people just because they're anti-town if I think they're town
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@drafterman
I am 100% on board with the original plan as provided by you, where you are a 1x vig who has guaranteed success unless he is roleblocked.It is you who changed the parameters of the plan. You voided it, not me. And since my not voting Mikal was contingent on that plan, this is on you.If you can vouch for the original plan as stated here:Then I am back on board.Can you vouch for your original plan?If not, why would you expect me to still be on board?
Nothing about the original plan should be altered. If anything further mechanics explained about my role should make you feel more confident that it will work. If my role has the weakness it has, then your role is the literal counter to that weakness.
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@Lunatic
No, that is implied by how my role functions after questioning pie about the mechanics.
Weak roles die if they target scum so essentially you're a 1x suicide bomber that only works if you hit scum, right?
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@whiteflame
I haven't given him an excuse for his current behavior. I'm saying he has reason to be frustrated with not knowing the full state of affairs when it came to your weak Vig role. That doesn't mean, and by now I've repeatedly said this, that it justifies putting his vote back on Elm. I wasn't happy with that choice to begin with, and I made myself very clear in that regard.
So instead of explaining me what you stance isn't, let's try figuring out what your stance actually is. What's the scum/town dynamic here, and who are you willing to lynch at the moment?
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@Lunatic
If you think me and elminster are scum buddies there is no hope for you lol. You had a clear way to make sure mikal was going to die. If you were really town, and genuinely thought mikal was scum, you would go through with that method to make sure he will die.
We did have a way, yes. Then you changed it. Now we no longer have a way.
If you think I lied about my role, rather than actually mis-understood pie, why would I tell you and everyone else publicly that instead of just stick with the orignal narrative? What benefit does that yield me as scum?
Whatever reason you have changed you stance on the role, the end result is the same: you can't guarantee a kill on Elminster so you have voided the original agreement.
Also what's the point of lynching elminster anymore?
The same point in lynching anyone: to remove them from the game.
The original point was because you thought he was going to throw and just rage quit. He is now helping progress the game and has been playing, and you are still trying to wagon him. If you are town the only explanation is that you are just so stubborn and unwilling to admit that your tunneling is extremely out of whack here.
Well, he's progressing the game in the sense he has agreed to sheep your vote, so I can see how you would want to keep him in the game. As it is, I believe actions have consequences. I don't think it is "out of whack" to not wish a person who acts like Elminster does to be in the same game.
At the moment, it seems pretty scummy that you were so eager to back out of proving your role which in a way that literally results in the thing you want; Mikal dying.
I didn't back out of the agreement: you did. If you can vouch for your original agreement, I'm in.
You are trying to make the argument that a role that says "If I target you and you have an action, that action can't be stopped." If you weren't lying about that, nothing should prevent the vig frmo going through. However you were setting in the seeds that this wasn't going to work before I even acknowledged mis-understanding pie (which again doesn't effect the wording of your own role in post 10)."But I predict either I'll be dead or Lunatic will concoct some story about why it didn't happen, most likely involving me being scum."It's almost like your setting up for the plan to fail because you aren't actually the role you said you are and know it will fail.
It's certainly interesting that, after I mention that this might be a scheme by scum you magically reveal that you misunderstood your role and it can be stopped by something other than a roleblock.
As it is, when I said that it could not be stop, I did not consider that Pie was giving mafia a free roleblock along with their kill. That's not a normal thing to have and I don't think it should be expected that I would assume they have it, or consider that they have it to the point I would have asked Pie about it before it was mentioned in the game.
I think it is an entirely reasonable interpretation of my role to suggest that the ability cannot be stopped and I will agree that having the mafia night kill also include a free roleblock is out of line and pretty much makes both you and my roles rather weakened.
Even permitting the free roleblock, I agree that my role should by pass it and allow the ability to work, but Pie has ruled that is not the case.
If you don't like it, you can take it up with him in the End Game, but it is what it is and I'm not going to argue with the mod about his rulings or game design in the middle of the game.
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@Speedrace
Weak roles die if they target scum so essentially you're a 1x suicide bomber that only works if you hit scum, right?
Only is the sense that you assume I am the night kill, if I am not night killed then I can freely vig any of the scum. If I am night killed, and I killed scum its basically a free investigation for me only that I have no way of proving to the town until I die, unless I state my intentiosn before hand. Which is why I am publicly stating now that I plan to kill drafter, so if the kill doesn't go through, and I die, you know he's scum. Or I bait out a roleblock, which is still good. If drafter is town and I kill them we get rid of an anti-town townie, and scum should have no incentive to block me. win win win.