Abortion and human rights

Author: Benjamin

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Reece101
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@Benjamin
You misunderstand "conservatism". In China, communists are the conservatives. If you think of "conservatism" as the current day American conservatism - YES it helped a lot.
Ignoring your mental gymnastics, It would have been productive if you came from the stand point of how China has the reputation of being the Wild West of science. But oh well. 

You clearly misunderstand human rights. The important thing is not exactly how people are treated, but that they are treated FAIRLY, aka as equal beings. Yes, the government can't afford good healthcare to people (unlike in Norway), but they are not paying healthcare ONLY for a particular group like jews, women, or layers. Poor people have a higher priority for healthcare not because their human value is greater, but because their ability to fend for themselves is weaker than other groups.
This isn’t a group vs group issue. Only if you made it one.

Every human is of equal value and thus have equal human rights
Except for people that don’t have money for their medical bills, people in comas, prisoners, fetuses, etc, etc, etc.
Overall this is amoral in terms of it doesn’t solely lean one way or the other.
Why did you reverse them? This is my argument against you.
I’ll assume it’s a mistake. 


The question: "What is an ethical system that supports human rights and abortion at the same time?"

You cannot refer to law. Killing Jews is not moral just because in a particular society they did not consider Jews to be humans. Come with a moral theory, like Theweakeredge.
I’ve addressed this in my other post.

Reece101
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@Benjamin
When there is a danger to both humans, the mother and the "fetus baby".
So what about just the mother in which the world is more emotionally invested in her?
Would you say goodbye to her?

You have not added any moral system - just a lot of moral claims.
Morality isn’t objective. It’s intersubjective. It’s a conclusion we come to with reason and empathy.
I’m defending our current moral system. 

The main reason is a fetus infringes on a women’s bodily autonomy. Just as meany medical issues do.
So what. If you sit in a train that is fully packed - you might end up severely uncomfortable. You cannot just kill the other humans and throw them out to feel comfortable.
"Bodily autonomy" does not triumph over human rights. 
You conveniently missed out the second part. I was saying in terms of medical issues.
Also a fetus/embryo isn’t as developed (nervous system) as a child that is born or a fully grown person. 

You agreed that all with human DNA are humans - that includes a fetus. So if human rights exist it is immoral to legally gass a jew, and immoral to legally kill a fetus. 
Why do you keep on bringing up Jews? Anyway, a fetus (at the legal time of abortion) isn’t as developed as a born human. 
What would you say about gametes? Do you cry every time you ejaculate?


Benjamin
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@Reece101
I’m defending our current moral system. 
We have no moral system. You are defending current liberal beliefs.

Morality isn’t objective. It’s intersubjective.
This statement undermines universal human rights. If Germany wanted to murder the jews, they are morally justified, they could just create a new moral system.

Also a fetus/embryo isn’t as developed (nervous system) as a child that is born or a fully grown person. 
It is clear that you want to value different people differently. I could use the same argument: "a child is not as developed as an adult - therefore they are less valuable"
This statement undermines universal human rights.

Why do you keep on bringing up Jews?
Holocaust is the single biggest symbol of what happens when you disregard universal human rights.
Hitler called the jews "less human" than other people, and thus justified the murder of 6 million jews.

Reece101
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@Benjamin
We have no moral system. You are defending current liberal beliefs
Full quote: “Morality isn’t objective. It’s intersubjective. It’s a conclusion we come to with reason and empathy.”
This statement undermines universal human rights. If Germany wanted to murder the jews, they are morally justified, they could just create a new moral system.
What would the morality be based on? I say catastrophic ignorance.

It is clear that you want to value different people differently. I could use the same argument: "a child is not as developed as an adult - therefore they are less valuable"
This statement undermines universal human rights
Yet the child has a developed nervous system and is conscious. A couple of months old fetus hasn’t fully developed one yet.
Anyway you could make the same argument about gametes.

Holocaust is the single biggest symbol of what happens when you disregard universal human rights.
Hitler called the jews "less human" than other people, and thus justified the murder of 6 million jews.
People do bad shit regardless, though the world has become more connected.
It’s a good thing we can roughly all be on the same page, apart from abortion.
Benjamin
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@Reece101
What would the morality be based on? I say catastrophic ignorance.
People that disagree with your view could say the same about the current moral system which justifies abortion.


Yet the child has a developed nervous system and is conscious. 
You yet again admit that you value people differently based on their physical traits.


People do bad shit regardless
You cannot call an action "bad shit" without a sense of universal human rights. But your view undermines human rights.
Reece101
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People that disagree with your view could say the same about the current moral system which justifies abortion.
Minds greater than you or I have learnt from history and sided against your moral views on abortion. 

You yet again admit that you value people differently based on their physical traits.
Because the world is more complicated than you would like it to be. 

You cannot call an action "bad shit" without a sense of universal human rights. But your view undermines human rights.
Is gravity universal? Yes. Does gravity vary depending on what objects are present? Yes.
Do planets orbit stars? Yes.
Do you understand the analogy I’m getting at?


Benjamin
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@Reece101
Minds greater than you or I have learnt from history and sided against your moral views on abortion.
Give me a source or moral philosophy. As far as society is concerned - those people just have strong opinions and a demanding voice.


Because the world is more complicated than you would like it to be. 
Do you think that I could kill you and still be justified? After all the world is complicated. No, you would not - neither would the fetus when it magically becomes a baby at birth.


Is gravity universal? Yes. Does gravity vary depending on what objects are present? Yes.
Do planets orbit stars? Yes.
Do you understand the analogy I’m getting at?
You say that murdering people is morally wrong in your country, but in my country murdering people is morally good - because morality is based on personal opinions, not universal principles.
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@Benjamin
Give me a source or moral philosophy. As far as society is concerned - those people just have strong opinions and a demanding voice.
Would it really matter if I gave you any sources? By society you mean the pro-life society. 

Do you think that I could kill you and still be justified? After all the world is complicated. No, you would not - neither would the fetus when it magically becomes a baby at birth.
 I’ll steel man you and assume I’m innocent.
Regardless, they’re two different states of being— one having a fully developed nervous system which is conscious, the other not so much which infringes on bodily autonomy of the mother, like other medical conditions. 

You say that murdering people is morally wrong in your country, but in my country murdering people is morally good - because morality is based on personal opinions, not universal principles.
This is why reason and empathy are good. Most of morality is intersubjective because we’re a social species.  
By the way murder is a legal term for the most part.
Benjamin
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@Reece101
This is why reason and empathy are good. Most of morality is intersubjective because we’re a social species.  
By the way murder is a legal term for the most part.
I give up. You mean that morality does not exist - society just has laws. "Hitler was not evil he just had another intersubjective morality than you and me."

I believe morality is objective (but not necessarily our understanding of it) - therefore my ethics are incompatible with yours.
Reece101
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@Benjamin
I give up. You mean that morality does not exist - society just has laws. "Hitler was not evil he just had another intersubjective morality than you and me."
Morality is defined as the distinction between good and bad - not what is good and bad. It would be a long definition otherwise. 
Most people that do bad things know they’ve done bad. They just lack empathy/intelligence and/or have an ulterior “moral” motive.

I believe morality is objective (but not necessarily our understanding of it) - therefore my ethics are incompatible with yours
You believe morality is preordained? Me too, but not by a deity. But by determinism.
Benjamin
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You believe morality is preordained? 
I believe objective morality, based on either a deity or a philosophy - is the basis for morality.

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@Benjamin
Morality evolves, as human society and knowledge evolves....Which includes philosophy and deism, and also science.

And I would suggest that, "objective morality" is a subjective assumption.
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@Benjamin
Humans have a right to die a natural death - therefore humans have no right to kill each other, including through abortion
Do you really believe all humans have a right to die a natural death?

Does this extend to all mammals?
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@Reece101
which infringes on bodily autonomy of the mother,
Not to mention medical privacy.
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@Barney
yet going by a human DNA standard,
Mice and men share about 97.5 per cent of their working DNA, just one per cent less than chimps and humans. [LINK]

Does this mean that mice have 97.5% human rights?
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@fauxlaw
I will further add that even the pro-choice argument of viability [able to function post-womb] is being accomplished at earlier and earlier points in gestation, completely obliterating the idea of not just late, but mid-term abortion. The record is a successful premature birth at nineteen weeks.
Scientists in the Netherlands say they are within 10 years of developing an artificial womb that could save the lives of premature babies.
Premature birth, before 37 weeks, is globally the biggest cause of death among newborns. [LINK]


Ectogenesis is the wave of the future.
Benjamin
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@3RU7AL
Do you really believe all humans have a right to die a natural death?
I believe murder is immoral. 
I also believe that murder is immoral regardless of you are murdering me, you, a jew, a scientist, or a baby.

If not ALL humans have a right to life, human rights are undermined.
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@Benjamin
I believe murder is immoral. 
Is killing a human always murder?
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@3RU7AL
Is killing a human always murder?
By definition, murder is only the intentional killing of another human being outside of the law.

But "murder" in this case, I talk about killing a human as opposed to other animals.

I think that all humans are equally valuable - therefore Hitlers massacre of Jews, Slavs, gypsies, handicapped and so forth is immoral. 
If one claims that a certain group of humans have less value (and can be killed without moral concerns) - one undermines human rights.
Holocaust and abortion both fit into the same category: "undermining human rights".

I am not saying that is an inherently bad thing - but abortion undermines human rights. Therefore, even if abortion is morally justifiable the effects on human value is too large.
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@Benjamin
Is killing a human always murder?
By definition, murder is only the intentional killing of another human being outside of the law.
Some "murder" is unintentional.

For example, "felony murder" is any incidental human death caused as the indirect result of someone committing a felony.

And if you're defining your morality ("murder") by legal standards, doesn't that mean it is impossible for a law to be immoral?

For example, if "abortion" is "legal" then it does not qualify as "murder".

For example, if "execution" is "legal" then it does not qualify as "murder".
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@Benjamin
I think that all humans are equally valuable
Ok, does this mean that you split your time and resources equally among all humans?
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@3RU7AL
if you're defining your morality ("murder") by legal standards, doesn't that mean it is impossible for a law to be immoral?
I do not define my morality on the law. Human rights imply equality in front of the law. I just used the legal definition in order to discuss with those that DO base their morality on the law. I just want to show that if human rights are to be taken seriously, then abortion is immoral.


Ok, does this mean that you split your time and resources equally among all humans?
Good question. No. 
Humans are equally valuable, so any moral law should apply equally to everyone. That is, if I think killing my mom would be immoral I also think that killing a stranger would be immoral. The time and resources I have are not controlled by morality but rather by my interests. My interests control everything that Is not controlled by morality.

Freedom and rights are opposites: The right to life means you have no freedom to kill others - while the freedom of speech means you have no right not to hear opinions -etc.
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@Benjamin
I do not define my morality on the law.
Then you should stop using the word "murder" when you describe your moral position.
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@Benjamin
The time and resources I have are not controlled by morality but rather by my interests.
Isn't it immoral to spend time and resources and focus that could be used to save lives on activities that do not save lives?
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@Benjamin
I talk about killing a human as opposed to other animals.
Do you think it's immoral to kill animals?
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Isn't it immoral to spend time and resources and focus that could be used to save lives on activities that do not save lives?
As I have said before - morality tells us what we cannot do - not what we must do.


Do you think it's immoral to kill animals?
Do you think that abortion is immoral? Killing animals is not wrong unless killing ANY human is immoral.

Also, "morality" is exclusively a human term. Find me a philosophy that prohibits the killing of animals.
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@Benjamin
I think abortion is moral and here is why:

Let’s say somebody gets pregnant unintentionally and they gave a kid they don’t want to take care of.  2 things can happen:

1) The unintended pregnancy gets brought to term and set up for adoption (because teenagers and anyone who doesn’t want to be a parent shouldn’t parent a baby).  In the best of circumstances, the kid gets adopted by foster parents super early in the kids life.  A starving African kid that got adopted by the foster parents in situation 2 dies of starvation because the foster parents adopted a baby that got aborted in situation 2, so no one was available to adopt the starving kid.  As a result, he dies of starvation and it is extremely painful.
2) The fetus gets aborted; a painless death since it was aborted before 20 weeks.  The starving African child gets saved by foster parents.

In situation 1, an African kid died of starvation and it was very slow and painful.  In situation 2, a fetus died a painless death.  The foster parents only have the ability and the will to adopt 1 of the kids.  Which situation do you prefer?  I prefer situation 2.  Banning abortion causes situation 1 to occur if everyone followed the law.  If a kid will die either way, it’s better to kill the kid who can’t feel pain and is not expecting the death.  If someone is going to die, it should be the entity that won’t suffer with their death.

If there were no starving kids anywhere in the world, I’d be against abortion.  But there are tens of millions of starving kids worldwide that are going to die a painful death from starvation.  If babies that didn’t have to be birthed were aborted, then foster parents could save starving kids in the rest of the world instead of having to adopt kids that didn’t have to exist.


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@Benjamin
Find me a philosophy that prohibits the killing of animals.
Kumbhipaka (cooked in a pot): A person who cooks beasts and birds alive is cooked alive in boiling oil by Yamadutas here, for as many years as there were hairs on the bodies of their animal victims. [LINK]
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@Benjamin
morality tells us what we cannot do - not what we must do.
So, does morality tell you to things like "feed and clothe your own children"?
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@Benjamin
I challenge anyone to give me a moral system capable of support the abortion industry and human rights at the same time.

Moral system: A moral standard, a moral authority and a way to measure moral value (who is valuable means who should be treated morally good)

Human rights: The idea that all humans are equally valuable regardless of their position, traits and views.

Human: A being with its own distinct DNA which is a part of the species homo sapiens
Congratulations, you’ve defined your way into success. If your claim is that any member of Homo sapiens is deserving of equal value, then, by definition, since the fetus is a human, abortion would be a violation of the rights of a human. 

However, people who are pro-choice would dispute your definitions. I argue, for example, that being human is not a sufficient condition for rights. Rather, I argue that you have to be capable of conscious experience – if you cannot benefit from your rights and do not have a particular preference against those rights being violated (even people in comas have established preferences), then you lack moral rights even if you are technically human. Fetuses lack conscious experience, whereas infants, children, and adults all have consciousness/sentience.