Vaccine Passports

Author: coal

Posts

Total: 90
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ILikePie5
So a once in a generation event is climate change? Wow. We can’t tell the weather for tomorrow and you’re telling me people should’ve predicted this 10 years ago? Gimme a break.
If you actually understood anything about climate change you'd know that it's effects are that once in a generation events continue to increase in frequency.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@fauxlaw
Those who use a racial argument are pointing toward their mirror.
"I'm rubber and you're glue" worked in third grade.
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@ILikePie5
We sure as hell aren’t going to enforce the passports. Feds can come and guard every state border if they want. Good luck to them

That's  how sanctuary cities and counties responded to Trump's immigration policies :) 

Not only did the feds make little to no dent in the amount of undocumented people here, but now New York lawmakers want to give billions of dollars to undocumented immigrants including former inmates that have been excluded from federal aid packages  lol. Unreal. 

Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
the traditional theocratic Republican party died when Trump exposed them for being DC parasites.

Please. Nobody in the elected GOP Establishment went against Trump during his presidential tenure except for maybe Paul Ryan and John McCain who didn't last long, and Mitt Romney whose votes had no impact. The rest all seemed happy to deepthroat Trump's orange dick for their own political gain and that's exactly what they did. 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,928
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Double_R
So did the mirror at the sink in my kindergarten classroom
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
LOL did you even bother to read the article? (I'm surprised I did given how routinely useless your links are.) This proved to be no exception given it's an article about how Donald Trump called Mitch McConnell "mean as a snake" IN A GOOD WAY. The article is literally about Donald Trump praising Mitch McConnell,  but based on the headline alone, you probably thought it was about Mitch going against the president lol. I can't. Thanks for proving McConnell was one of many GOP cucks for Trump as virtually all of them were. 





Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,928
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Danielle
IN A GOOD WAY.
Lol, I didn't read it as a good thing. Maybe a cult worshipper would though. 

The point of the article is that Trump wasn't the one getting his dick sucked.

The article is literally about Donald Trump praising Mitch McConnell,
Thanks for proving my point.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,516
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Danielle
That's  how sanctuary cities and counties responded to Trump's immigration policies :) 

Not only did the feds make little to no dent in the amount of undocumented people here, but now New York lawmakers want to give billions of dollars to undocumented immigrants including former inmates that have been excluded from federal aid packages  lol. Unreal. 
Not my fault King Cuomo like illegals more than actual Americans 🤷‍♂️
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,516
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Double_R
If you actually understood anything about climate change you'd know that it's effects are that once in a generation events continue to increase in frequency.
You’re actually out of your mind lol. No one makes a business decision that would take a generation to even come to fruition lol
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@ILikePie5
What does that have to with my point?
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@fauxlaw
So did the mirror at the sink in my kindergarten classroom
And I'm sure it still does. You have a point?
Conway
Conway's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 278
1
2
5
Conway's avatar
Conway
1
2
5
-->
@Double_R
No, anyone who, for example, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about COVID until it’s being carried in by brown people, is probably a bigot.

Without trying to understand someone, we wouldn't know if people care about the president's policy on immigration because some of the illegal immigrants happen to have brownish skin tone, or some other line of reasoning that isn't insultingly stupid.  You and I only know that you care that some of the immigrants happen to be brown. 


I was referencing the right wing talking point that the Biden administration is allowing COVID infected migrants into “our” communities. Yet the people complaining about this are the same people who think lockdowns, mask mandates, and social distancing guidelines are government tyranny. So the same people who will pack themselves into indoor spaces without masks are the same people who are all of a sudden worried about COVID once it’s carried in by brown people. It’s absurdly transparent.
Or maybe they think the people who aren't citizens do not enjoy the full benefit of a government that was instituted to serve the interest of it's own citizens.

Or anything else... 



I noticed that you happened to introduce the concept of race initially when responding to a statement about language.
Trust me, you wouldn't think for a second about sharing your living space with a person who doesn't speak a language you can understand.
I live in the Bronx, I’m surrounded by people who speak all kinds of languages so you’ll have to excuse me if I have a difficult time understanding white bigotry.
Would you care to explain how learning English  is "white" in your view?
Ah yes, the ole if you accuse someone else of being a racist then you must be a racist argument.

I don’t care that they are brown, that’s the point. So because I don’t care that they are brown, my concerns about them carrying COVID don’t change, unlike the many (that you seem to be defending) that never expressed any concerns about COVID until finding out that some illegals were carrying it. 

If you don’t believe they should be set free, then argue that they shouldn’t be set free. But don’t pretend that because some portion of them (that is no higher in percentage than the general US population) are testing positive that all of sudden this is a public health issue.

If you take issue with me bringing race into the equation, then instead of  “I’m rubber and your glue” enlighten me as to what the concern is here and why it’s a concern now when it hasn’t been one for the past year.


Ah yes, the ole if you accuse someone else of being a racist then you must be a racist argument.
Huh, I thought about explaining in more explicit terms but then I just took for granted that you would try and relate to me.  I recognize that someone else recently said something toward you to the effect of "the people who say bigot are usually bigots", and you need to recognize that I haven't even used the word racism or bigot.  I might have very little in common with that person.  If you came to the conclusion that your wording is indicative of racism, that came about of your own volition. 

I'm just trying to say what I think is reasonable, and obviously the statements I'm responding to aren't in the right, but I hope not to come across offensively.  If you accuse someone without evidence, that says nothing about them and something about yourself.    So, like for example if Joe Biden said "poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids".  Whether you agree with them or not, at least the accuser has some basis in reality to say that Joe Biden is thinking in terms of race.

Now if Joe Biden hadn't let that slip out and said "poor kids are just as bright and talented as the kids in the suburbs" and then you insinuate that Joe is really thinking to refer to whites or other races, that theory is plausible and very-well may be correct, but for the time being we can only deduce within reason that you were the one initially expressing yourself in those terms.   
I don't care that they are brown, that's the point.  So because I don’t care that they are brown, my concerns about them carrying COVID don’t change, unlike the many (that you seem to be defending) that never expressed any concerns about COVID until finding out that some illegals were carrying it.
You can't seriously claim that you don't care about the skin color and be the only person in the room talking about skin color.  The statement above is false.

You and you alone said this "So the same people who will pack themselves into indoor spaces without masks are the same people who are all of a sudden worried about COVID once it’s carried in by brown people."  and this "No, anyone who, for example, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about COVID until it’s being carried in by brown people, is probably a bigot."

Of course, where there's "brown" that's also contrasted with "white" to your way of thinking.  I'm not trying to change your mind on this.  Whether they say so or not, the people you interact with are going to understand that you do care on some level, and I can't say I'd blame you for not wanting to discuss that in public.  

If you don’t believe they should be set free, then argue that they shouldn’t be set free. But don’t pretend that because some portion of them (that is no higher in percentage than the general US population) are testing positive that all of sudden this is a public health issue.

If you take issue with me bringing race into the equation, then instead of  “I’m rubber and your glue” enlighten me as to what the concern is here and why it’s a concern now when it hasn’t been one for the past year.
Obviously illegal immigrants must have started changing colors around the time Joe Biden took office.  There's no other possible explanation.
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Lol, stop. Why would you double down on your mistake? That's just embarrassing. 

You said "Trump exposed [theocratic Republicans] for being DC parasites."

I said nobody in the elected GOP Establishment went against Trump during his presidential tenure except for maybe Paul Ryan and John McCain who didn't last long, and Mitt Romney whose votes had no impact. The rest all seemed happy to deepthroat Trump's orange dick for their own political gain and that's exactly what they did.

In response you presented a link that did not contradict that statement in any way, shape, or form.

Not even a little bit. 

It was a link where the Establishment GOP met with Trump to discuss how to implement Trump's agenda. The article highlighted Trump praising Mitch McConnell and strategizing how to work together, which they did throughout Trump's time in office. You don't have a source from Trump's tenure showing McConnell actively working against Trump because it didn't happen. The two needed each other and they knew it. That's why Trump talked a big game about "draining the swamp" but didn't actually accomplish that one iota.

The Republicans’ 2017 tax bill is a case in point: it rewarded the Party’s biggest donors by giving more than 80% of its breaks  to the wealthiest 1% by cutting corporate tax rates, and by preserving the carried-interest loophole which is exploited by private-equity firms and hedge funds (something Trump said he would get rid of but didn't... lol... just like he said he would get rid of lobbying bans, but then reinstated them... lol... yeah ya boy is so anti elite... lol). The tax bill was unpopular with both Democrats and Republicans, so the Republican Party had to form a coalition between corporatists and populists who were galvanized by Trump’s ultimately useless rhetoric. This hybrid strategy has been called Plutocratic Populism. And indeed it has worked with Trump supporters still thinking he was "fighting for them" while actively doing nothing in practice to change the status quo. 

Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@ILikePie5
Not my fault King Cuomo like illegals more than actual Americans 🤷‍♂️

That's cool, I never said anything was your fault lol. I was responding to your quip about how "the feds can try" by agreeing their efforts have often been historically futile. 
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
Re: vaccine passports, so many right-wingers seem awfully agitated by the prospect of not having their freedom of movement respected. It seems a lil weird to me (though I do understand the concern) given the vaccine requirements that have always existed for certain places, and that every country already requires passports for travel. 
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,516
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Danielle
That's cool, I never said anything was your fault lol. I was responding to your quip about how "the feds can try" by agreeing their efforts have often been historically futile. 
Eh not all the time 🤷‍♂️
FourTrouble
FourTrouble's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 204
0
2
3
FourTrouble's avatar
FourTrouble
0
2
3
I'm against the entire project of control in the name of public health. Very dangerous game to play, especially when we don't have anywhere close to a sufficient or consensus understanding of what constitutes "public health." The term is slippery enough for government to eventually define anything (e.g. "political disagreement") as a public health menace. Not the world I want to live in.
FourTrouble
FourTrouble's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 204
0
2
3
FourTrouble's avatar
FourTrouble
0
2
3
-->
@Danielle
The places that already require some sort of vaccine passport (e.g. certain countries in Africa) are places you probably wouldn't want to live.
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
-->
@FourTrouble
My parents had to get certain vaccines when they traveled to South Africa and Kenya, both trips they recommended I take someday. I'm not really a big animal lover though. Only dogs. I think a lot of the vaccines might just be recommended as well (not mandated) though I would take every single one lol. I shudder just thinking about those big ass bugs. 
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Double_R
You have a point?
The building, unfortunately, does not exist. otherwise, as to the point? You missed it.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Conway
You can't seriously claim that you don't care about the skin color and be the only person in the room talking about skin color. The statement above is false.
“I don’t care about skin color” doesn’t mean “I don’t see color”. It means that their race/ethnicity doesn’t matter to me. So if for example, they are infected with COVID, I look at them no differently than I would anyone else who is infected with COVID.

Just because someone isn’t talking about skin color doesn’t mean it isn’t largely driving their position. Politicians and right wing TV hosts literally make a living appealing to racists in a way that can be denied because they don’t use the magic words that give it away.

Whether they say so or not, the people you interact with are going to understand that you do care on some level, and I can't say I'd blame you for not wanting to discuss that in public.
Not wanting to discuss what in public? And why would I not want to discuss my views exactly?

Obviously illegal immigrants must have started changing colors around the time Joe Biden took office. There's no other possible explanation.
Or, the people spouting off about this are just bigots who don’t like Mexicans. Any others?

coal
coal's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,950
3
3
9
coal's avatar
coal
3
3
9
Here's a few point of consideration:

Do people understand the difference between a "vaccine passport" and "proof of vaccination" for the purpose of obtaining a visa for entry into a country?

I also wonder whether anyone has put any thought into the question of what, if any, value "vaccine passports" offer where most of the world's population is going to be vaccinated before the end of 2021. 

If the thought is "well we need to make sure there isn't another outbreak," that's fine but what evidence is there that vaccine passports are going to make a difference on that front?  I haven't seen any.

And just exactly what vaccines are going to be accepted?  Sputnik-V?  SinoVac?  SinoPharm?  Etc.?

To me, this seems like another stupid layer of regulatory largess that won't make a difference in the big picture. 




coal
coal's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,950
3
3
9
coal's avatar
coal
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
I am replying to post 61, btw

once in a generation events continue to increase in frequency.

This is, at least in my perspective, the critical issue underlying all of our discussion about COVID and any response to it.  We have been operating under the assumption that we're not going to see an event like this in our lifetime.  I have seen no evidence tending to support that belief.

In fact, what I am actually concerned about is what happens when a pandemic with an R-0 factor of something like 2-4, and an IFR of around 10-15%+ or worse hits.  

COVID, though catastrophic by any objective measure, is a "dud" when it comes to actually killing people.  Many did die, and that is very tragic, but the reality is that the bullet here was dodged by about 99.999% of human civilization (at least in terms of illness).   The economic catastrophe caused by government lockdowns will haunt us for the rest of our lives, but that's tangential to the point of focus now. 

COVID may have helped get the technology in place for some vaccines, and rapid commercialization of them (like with mRNA technology) and that's good.  But if ebola as contagious as COVID were to start circulating, that's going to destroy civilization as we know it beyond repair.  It's the kind of thing humanity will never come back from. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,928
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@coal
The long-term economic damage from Covid-19 shows how much more dangerous Central Planning is to human civilization than any known virus in existence.
coal
coal's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,950
3
3
9
coal's avatar
coal
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
And the short term, too. 
triangle.128k
triangle.128k's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 483
2
2
6
triangle.128k's avatar
triangle.128k
2
2
6
Anybody promoting or supporting passports for an extremely rushed vaccine to combat a slightly stronger Flu can fuck off. Vaccines for more severe diseases might be understandable. This, on the other hand, is stupid.
Conway
Conway's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 278
1
2
5
Conway's avatar
Conway
1
2
5
-->
@Double_R

You can't seriously claim that you don't care about the skin color and be the only person in the room talking about skin color. The statement above is false.
“I don’t care about skin color” doesn’t mean “I don’t see color”.
I've heard people say "I don't see color" before and I thought it made them sound stupid lol.

It means that their race/ethnicity doesn’t matter to me
Good, that would make me happy.  The way you were talking before would have made you less attractive to people who might actually have an impact on your livelihood. 
So if for example, they are infected with COVID, I look at them no differently than I would anyone else who is infected with COVID.
I can't tell...Are "they" illegal immigrants, or the "brown people" (legal and illegal)? 
Just because someone isn’t talking about skin color doesn’t mean it isn’t largely driving their position. Politicians and right wing TV hosts literally make a living appealing to racists in a way that can be denied because they don’t use the magic words that give it away.
Well yeah, it's their job to relate to all sorts of people, and really there's nothing magic about something that's plainly understood.  The reason these political figures can deny racism is because they're not speaking in that way.  Historically, when a region flips Republican it tends to coincide with a reduction in racism. 

In this regard, I don't think one has to be overly concerned of 'racism' based merely on whether policies have a disparate impact with respect to race.  That in itself tells you next to nothing as to the motivation of the policy maker.  In certain areas I might even be more concerned of racism if they didn't, since disparate outcomes are exactly what you should expect between families who've established themselves in different ways over different time frames, handed down different elements of culture, entered different sectors of the economy, settled in different geographic regions etc...  That would just be an atmosphere of insanity if it were considered normal to associate every policy with a group of people we don't like, who happen to approve of it or not.  As long as we don't partake in something incredibly stupid, then society should continue to heal.
I don't care that they are brown, that's the point.  So because I don’t care that they are brown, my concerns about them carrying COVID don’t change, unlike the many (that you seem to be defending) that never expressed any concerns about COVID until finding out that some illegals were carrying it.
You can't seriously claim that you don't care about the skin color and be the only person in the room talking about skin color.  The statement above is false.

You and you alone said this "So the same people who will pack themselves into indoor spaces without masks are the same people who are all of a sudden worried about COVID once it’s carried in by brown people."  and this "No, anyone who, for example, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about COVID until it’s being carried in by brown people, is probably a bigot."

Of course, where there's "brown" that's also contrasted with "white" to your way of thinking.  I'm not trying to change your mind on this.  Whether they say so or not, the people you interact with are going to understand that you do care on some level, and I can't say I'd blame you for not wanting to discuss that in public.  
Not wanting to discuss what in public? 
I think in context, the sentence structure is not so unclear.  You just have to ask, what does the subject care about? 

Recall, In this context, most everyone is referencing the illegality of being somewhere one has no legal right to be.  You were expressly focused on skin tone.

And why would I not want to discuss my views exactly?
I've talked to people who make baseless accusations of racism, privately.  Everyone is different.
If you don’t believe they should be set free, then argue that they shouldn’t be set free. But don’t pretend that because some portion of them (that is no higher in percentage than the general US population) are testing positive that all of sudden this is a public health issue.

If you take issue with me bringing race into the equation, then instead of  “I’m rubber and your glue” enlighten me as to what the concern is here and why it’s a concern now when it hasn’t been one for the past year
Obviously illegal immigrants must have started changing colors around the time Joe Biden took office. There's no other possible explanation.
Or, the people spouting off about this are just bigots who don’t like Mexicans. Any others?
Well, illegal immigrants from Mexico are still just as Mexican as they were last year so logically speaking, I don't think that's the case here.  

Did you ever read through the entirety of my first post to you in this thread?  
No, anyone who, for example, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about COVID until it’s being carried in by brown people, is probably a bigot.

Without trying to understand someone, we wouldn't know if people care about the president's policy on immigration because some of the illegal immigrants happen to have brownish skin tone, or some other line of reasoning that isn't insultingly stupid.  You and I only know that you care that some of the immigrants happen to be brown. 


I was referencing the right wing talking point that the Biden administration is allowing COVID infected migrants into “our” communities. Yet the people complaining about this are the same people who think lockdowns, mask mandates, and social distancing guidelines are government tyranny. So the same people who will pack themselves into indoor spaces without masks are the same people who are all of a sudden worried about COVID once it’s carried in by brown people. It’s absurdly transparent.
Or maybe they think the people who aren't citizens do not enjoy the full benefit of a government that was instituted to serve the interest of it's own citizens.

Or anything else... 



I noticed that you happened to introduce the concept of race initially when responding to a statement about language.
Trust me, you wouldn't think for a second about sharing your living space with a person who doesn't speak a language you can understand.
I live in the Bronx, I’m surrounded by people who speak all kinds of languages so you’ll have to excuse me if I have a difficult time understanding white bigotry.
Would you care to explain how learning English  is "white" in your view?








Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,246
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Conway
I can't tell...Are "they" illegal immigrants, or the "brown people" (legal and illegal)?
Illegal people who are brown

Historically, when a region flips Republican it tends to coincide with a reduction in racism.
Can you explain this?

In this context, most everyone is referencing the illegality of being somewhere one has no legal right to be. You were expressly focused on skin tone.
Pointing out the elephant in the room does not mean I’m the one who put it there.

The comments I criticized had nothing to do with illegality, I was specifically pointing out the absurd hypocrisy of the same people who’ve spent the past year ignoring COVID now arguing that Biden is jeopardizing their health by setting free migrants with COVID.

The bigotry could hardly be more obvious, and it’s absurd to claim that you’re really the one who’s thinking about race when it’s others who change their position on an unrelated issue because of it.

Would you care to explain how learning English is "white" in your view?
I didn’t say it was. I used the term white bigotry to describe a mindset driving a political movement, far more commonly held by white people. That mindset is this “otherism” directed towards people who do not speak English, and the idea that such people are less deserving of whatever benefits come with being an American regardless of their contributions to our society.

TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,261
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@coal
I maintain a consistent pro freedom ethic; being against mandatory covid passports for US born citizens and being against mandatory citizenship passports for undocumented immigrants.