The determinism syllogism

Author: Bones

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fauxlaw
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@Bones
The process of something occurring to me is completely random. 
In general, I agree with your two posits. However, the quote above regarding the 2nd posit is incomplete. One can go through a carefully structured thought process, not just by random thought, to have something occur to one.  Happens all the time, yet, you discount it as being strictly random. Whereas, a deliberate thought process is not at all random. That's the first problem.

Second problem: You then launch into this assumption of using Japan and Australia as possible "random" countries to pick, and assume your place in another's [ours] mind, and proceed merrily through a sequence of thinking, and how we might respond to a series of questions about our selection. only, we may not go through the thinking process you suppose is the only possible thought track. Quite simply, you already know what assumptions make of us. Don't think that just because you did not consider we may think differently than you, that our method of thought is not the correct method. 

Third problem: "Well, what other factors can control your movement?" Well, I reply, just the fact that without my moving a muscle, sitting on a park bench, I am already moving with the rotation of the Earth, also moving in its orbit around the Sun, which is, simultaneously and differently, moving in orbit about the center of the galaxy, which, separate and distinct from all previous movements, is in its own course around... whatever. For me sitting still, that 's a lot of separate moving phenomena, all in keeping with holy physics. So, stuff the idea of determinism because, in spite of all that movement that exists, but over which I have no control, I just rose from the park bench, went to the airport and flew to Egypt to see the pyramids, a country to which I have never been, but have desired to see as part of my bucket list. So, no, it was not a random choice, but I made the choice, none the less, and felt no obligation by determinism to do so.
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@fauxlaw
One can go through a carefully structured thought process, not just by random thought, to have something occur to one.
Though a thought may seem to have come as a result of carefully structed thought, the fact remains that you do not know why you chose to think what you thought at that moment in time.

Second problem: You then launch into this assumption of using Japan and Australia as possible "random" countries to pick, and assume your place in another's [ours] mind, and proceed merrily through a sequence of thinking, and how we might respond to a series of questions about our selection. only, we may not go through the thinking process you suppose is the only possible thought track. Quite simply, you already know what assumptions make of us. Don't think that just because you did not consider we may think differently than you, that our method of thought is not the correct method. 
How about I do the experiment on you? Pick a country. Any country. 

Third problem: "Well, what other factors can control your movement?" Well, I reply, just the fact that without my moving a muscle, sitting on a park bench, I am already moving with the rotation of the Earth, also moving in its orbit around the Sun, which is, simultaneously and differently, moving in orbit about the center of the galaxy, which, separate and distinct from all previous movements, is in its own course around... whatever.
In what way does the movement of the Earth effect your free will? It isn't as if you control the rotation or velocity of the planet.

RECALL, I STATED: What is outside of your body and disobeys the laws of physics which can affect your choice and movement?

The last time I checked, the movement of the earth obeys the laws of physics.  

I just rose from the park bench, went to the airport and flew to Egypt to see the pyramids, a country to which I have never been, but have desired to see as part of my bucket list.
1) Why did my words have such a drastic impact on you? You could have said "well this kid on the internet doesn't know what he's saying" and ignore my statement completely. Why did you choose to react in the way that you did
2) Why Egypt? Why not Japan? 
3) Why do pyramids interest you? There are countless other monuments around the world which you could have gone to seen. 






fauxlaw
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@Bones
you do not know why you chose to think what you thought at that moment in time. 
wrong. it is called the objective correlative.
Tarik
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@Bones
If you were to give your business partner a hot beverage to hold as opposed to a cold one, they would more likely cooperate with you and when asked why they did what they did, they would usually, never say “well I was holding a coffee instead of a beer”.
I don’t see your point here, temperatures vary and so do people’s attitudes towards them (especially under given circumstances) so how can you possibly know this?
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@Tarik
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@Bones
Depends how hot is hot and how cold is cold.....Relative to both, external environmental conditions, and social circumstances.

Hot beverages at a Caribbean beach party or Cold beverages al fresco at the South Pole, for example.

Not something that can be honestly studied in a controlled environment.
Tarik
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@Bones
The process of something occurring to me is completely random. I cannot control what occurs to me, that is the nature of something occurring.
You didn’t say this before, before you said

Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events. 
So is it past events or randomness?

53 days later

3RU7AL
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@Theweakeredge
For example, though you do not choose whether you prefer one thing to another - you can choose to go against that preference
what might cause you to prefer to not prefer something you previously preferred ?
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@Bones
Premise 1  Every human choice or action is driven by past events. 

Premise 2 We do not control past events. 

Conclusion 1 Human free will does not exist. 

From my perspective, the syllogism seems simple to the point where it is irrefutable. What do we think?
Premise 1 EVERY HUMAN CHOICE OR ACTION IS EITHER CAUSED BY PREVIOUS EVENTS OR TOTALLY RANDOM OR SOME MIX OF THE TWO

Premise 2 CAUSED EVENTS ARE NOT "CHOSEN" AND RANDOM EVENTS ARE NOT "CHOSEN", MIXING THESE CHANGES NOTHING

Conclusion 1 HUMAN ACTIONS ARE EITHER CAUSED OR RANDOM OR SOME MIX OF THE TWO, THEREFORE HUMAN ACTIONS ARE NOT "CHOSEN"

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I expect the world will open up one day a Cheshire Cat smile and swallow me whole, and that's about as real and true to me as any dainty syllogism. Embrace infinity. 

"Go n-ithe an cat thú is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat."


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@Tarik
Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events. 
So is it past events or randomness?
both end with the exact same result
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@badger
and that's about as real and true to me as any dainty syllogism.
any argument against logic is necessarily self-defeating
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure what Kant's Critique of Pure Reason was about, but he was critiquing something anyway. Honestly I didn't make it past the first page but I learned the words "propaedeutic" and "apodictic" and I don't think I'll ever forget them. Nor use them in a sentence that's not about how I learned them from Kant.
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@badger
but he was critiquing something anyway
critique is the crucible by which logic is forged
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
both end with the exact same result
Which is?
Theweakeredge
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@3RU7AL
An experience. Pretty simple that. 
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@3RU7AL
I would disagree - not with what you have there neccessarily as premises, but the conclusion. You are assuming that because of a cause of x has a quality (or lack thereof) that the result also lacks that quality - which is neccessarily a fallacy of composition 
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@Tarik
both end with the exact same result
Which is?
FREE-WILL IS LOGICALLY INCOHERENT
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@Theweakeredge
I would disagree - not with what you have there neccessarily as premises, but the conclusion. You are assuming that because of a cause of x has a quality (or lack thereof) that the result also lacks that quality - which is neccessarily a fallacy of composition 
human action can ONLY BE either "caused" or "uncaused".

(IFF) your action is "caused" (THEN) your action is not "free"

(IFF) your action is "uncaused" (THEN) it is not an act of your "will"
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@3RU7AL
FREE-WILL IS LOGICALLY INCOHERENT
Prove it.

Bones
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@Tarik
human action can ONLY BE either "caused" or "uncaused".

(IFF) your action is "caused" (THEN) your action is not "free"

(IFF) your action is "uncaused" (THEN) it is not an act of your "will"
That's a pretty good way of putting it. I like the following syllogism that Sam Harris uses. 

Pick a random country. Any country. Notice this processes which you are going through. Notice the selecting and the choosing, and the "freeness"which you are going through. What if I were to say that this very processes proves that free will does not exist? 
 
In order to unpack this, we must first establish the options that one has to pick. 
 
1)A person is not free to choose a country which they do not know exists. 
2)A person cannot choose a country which didn't occur to them
3)You can only choose what occurs to you
 
The first option is obvious. If you don't know it, then you cannot choose it. You are not free to choose it, so to speak. 
 
The second option however, is a little more confronting. Perhaps all readers know about Argentina but for some reason, your Argentina neurons were not functioning and you did you think it it. This then begs the question, what can you think about?
 
The third option is to unpack what you can choose. Say you chose America. The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.But how do you choose what occurs to you? The process of something occurring to you is unsolicited, it is impossible to choose what occurs to you. 
 
Secondly, say the countries America and China occurred to you (you did not choose for these two countries to occur to you, they simply did). Ask yourself, why did you choose America? When subjects in a lab are asked to justify their actions(whilst under the influence of some independent variable) the test subject usually does not know the real reason why their actions occurred the way that they did (assuming an experienced experimenter was involved). However, this isn't to say they don't have a tale to tell. If you asked a person who has been hypnotised why they did certain things, they usually have bizarre reasons for why the did what they did (though unconvincing to us, the subject remains convinced of their tale). Returning to the case of free will, why does one choose Americas opposed to China. Well, one may say that "they just had an American hotdog last night and so America appealed to them". However, this is no justification, it is merely stating a fact. It's like if you asked a murderer why they murdered and they said "I killed him". So why choose America instead of China because you ate a hotdog? Why couldn't you think "well I've just had a hotdog, let's switch things up, I'll choose China".This process of "choosing" because of your apparent"justification" is no more than your neurons making a decision for you and you being aware of this decision. 
 
You cannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you"chose" the option of which you did. 

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@Bones
The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.
And because I was WILLING to choose it.
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@Tarik
You obviously didn’t read the whole post 
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@Bones
Your right at first I didn’t but I did now and it doesn’t change a thing.
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@Tarik
The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you.
And because I was WILLING to choose it.
Is your "willingness" caused by something ?

Is your "willingness" uncaused ?
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@3RU7AL
You tell me.
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@Tarik
You tell me.
If your "willingness" is caused, then it is not "free".

If your "willingness" is uncaused, then it is not your "will".
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@3RU7AL
If your "willingness" is caused, then it is not "free".
It is if it’s caused by you.
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@Bones
You cannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you"chose" the option of which you did. 
Although, you CAN know that each of your actions is necessarily (EITHER) caused (OR) uncaused.
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@Tarik
well then could you tell me why it doesn't change a thing, or are you just desperately clinging onto a comforting idea?