George Floyd Déjà vu

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  • bmdrocks21
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    The arrest of a career criminal, who was under the influence of drugs and resisted arrest, had their incident caught on video camera. This video was sent to the press and a deceptive clip eventually led to massive riots.

    Sounding familiar? It should, but not for the reason many of you are expecting.

    I'm talking about the arrest of Rodney King. King, who was on parole for a robbery, attempted to flee police at over 100 mph because he did not want to be caught driving under the influence. After eventually being cornered, he was ordered to lay on the ground, which he refused to do. Four officers attempted to execute an unarmed arrest on King, who was 6'4 and well over 200lb, but he threw them off. They unsuccessfully tried to use a taser, and he charged at them. Then, they began using their batons, but he kept trying to get up to flee until eventually eight officers were able to cuff him.

    The video aired by the media showed none of the violent resisting of arrest or the charging at the officers- only the beating completely out of context.

    An article from the Missouri Kansas City Law School noted that the deceptive clips "turned what would otherwise have been a violent, but soon forgotten, encounter between the Los Angeles police and an uncooperative suspect into one of the most widely watched and discussed incidents of its kind".

    I'd think that the fentanyl overdose of a career criminal after resisting arrest would have also fallen back into obscurity without the meddling of the media that grossly misrepresented the case.

    The LA Riots resulted after the police were not charged in King's beating, as the jury was shown the full clip with all of the facts present. After 5 days of massive riots and $1 billion in damage, the national guard quelled the savage mob.

    However, some of the police were eventually charged by the DOJ with "depriving King of his civil rights". This moment taught the mob one important lesson: rioting works. If you riot enough, you can get a conviction, and today, you can get over a billion in donations for looting and burning business. With last year's riots fresh in the mind of Chauvin's jury, they knew that for the safety of themselves and their city, they must convict Chauvin.

    So, we must take similar lessons. The national guard quelled the mob nearly instantly. We must not hesitate to deploy any means necessary to uphold the safety of the public from rioters and to protect the sanctity of our justice system. We only have the mere semblance of being a First World country when we allow officers to be sacrificial lambs to please angry mobs who deify felons. We cannot accept living under the tyranny of these unhinged, violent activists and opportunists.

    To stop the mob, we need, as Patrick Buchanan once said about the LA Riots "the one thing that could stop it: force, rooted in justice, and backed by moral courage."
  • Greyparrot
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    no peace, no justice.
  • bmdrocks21
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    #JusticeForDerek
  • RationalMadman
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    George Floyd panicked due to being high and having claustrophobia, he didn't do anything close to charging at the cops.

    The only thing truly in common between the situations is that they've both got records that aren't admirable.

    The crime Floyd committed was paying with a fake note and being high on meth and fentanyl, in the past he's done much worse but that was the crime.

    How are you comparing that to Chauvin who irrefutably murdered Floyd when the gut was laying limp on the ground and saying he couldn't breathe, begging for help/mercy until Chauvin cut off any oxygen to him? 

    I'd say test it out but it could literally kill you. Chauvin lifted his boot off the ground so that the knee weighed even more down on Floyd's neck. 
  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    They aren't perfect mirrors, but the general details are the same. One exception being that drugs killed Rodney King many years after the video of the arrest.

    Floyd didn't charge the cops, but both resisted arrest.

    "Irrefutably murdered". I guess no jury has ever been wrong before, huh?

    I fail to see how you don't draw the connection between Floyd's heart disease, deadly drugs in his system, and stress from being arrested for multiple felonies (drug crimes and using counterfeit money)  resulting in his OD. You are obviously biased beyond reasoning if you don't think there is any possibility that poor health, drugs, and stress killed him.

    Because that is the burden of proof: "beyond a reasonable doubt". 
  • Greyparrot
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    #JusticeForDerek

    Hopefully, the looters won't care when the media covers the appeal.
  • bmdrocks21
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    Hopefully, the looters won't care when the media covers the appeal.

    The rooftop Koreans won't be caught off-guard this time!!!
  • RationalMadman
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    Jury can be wrong or right, I would say test it but you'd die.

    If you test out for even 20seconds what Floyd experienced for 9 minutes, your neck would potentially already crush and the larynx+trachea spasm.

    You got no fucking course what you're defending. I see you here making your edgy racist jokes, you aren't funny. Noone with taste finds your posts here funny. Your only contributions to the politics subforum are to celebrate right-wing bullshit and humiliate left-wing truth.

    If you murder someone who has drugs in their system, you're still a murderer. For over 9 minutes george floyd had two grown men on his chest and neck. The one on his neck irrefutably was the bigger factor in the fatal suffocation but the other guy already contributed to one of Floyd's lungs expanding less but Floyd wouldn't have died from that had Chauvin not been where he was putting all his weight on floyd's neck.

    Chauvin is seen lifting his bott off the ground at several points to completely force the windpipe shut. The actual thing you talk so much about (how big and strong Floyd was) is the only reason the neck didn't totally collapse and bruise. Ot is because he was so muscular that the neck withstood the abuse logner than any average human could, not shorter due to drugs, longer due to strength. You don't know a thing about medicine or logic when yoy sag he died from the drug OD.

    He was murdered, I know that regardless of the jury being correct. I've seent he videos and heard witness testimony. It js absolutely ridiculous paranoia to say this is a conspiracy against Chauvin, the real conspiracy is abusive manhandling in the police force as well as racist bias.


  • FLRW
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    Well stated.
  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    How do you know I'd die? How many pounds of pressure were on Floyd?  Dr. Andrew Baker said that there were no bruises on the neck and you typically would see those. He also said pressure on the back of the neck doesn't result in asphyxiation or strangulation.

    I don't understand where you got the idea that I was telling racist jokes. The only time I mentioned the race of anyone was in reference to the heroic Korean business owners that defended their stores from a mob of psychos.

    You have always seemed to have a very high opinion of yourself. The truth is you watched a deceptive video and immediately determined that Chauvin was guilty and there was no way that this couldn't be the case. Your cognitive dissonance and blatant partisanships is why you refuse to recognize that there is a high likelihood that Floyd OD'd.

    To think that it is a conspiracy that the media can emotionally manipulate masses of people through partially reporting on issues that they don't have most of the facts on is laughable. We saw it over Treyvon Martin and Michael Brown, both of whom deserved to be shot. Yet there were plenty of riots over ol' police-punching, gun-grabbing Michael.
  • RationalMadman
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    Have you ever had someone even slightly put pressure on your upper back or neck?

    In UFC referees panic a lot when the fighter underneath is in a situation where weight is directly put to their chest and/or neck. If they don't tap out but instead go limp, the referee often cuts the fight out and starts the countdown for the fighter to get up and breathe, this is a specific example of just how realistically scared a professional who understands physics of human bodies and some medical lind of knowledge of tubes in the body responds and assesses a situation. Not one single onlooker to the incident has defended Chauvin except for one of the cops who was there (the one who 'stood guard' I dont know his name off by heart).
  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    Floyd's narrowed arteries and enlarged heart made him much more susceptible to death in this manner. When police are making arrests, they don't know the underlying health conditions that the person they are arresting have. Chauvin, we are assuming, was not be aware of Floyd's conditions, unless you can prove otherwise.

    Floyd was alive for most of the time he was under restraint restraint. Wouldn't it be logical to believe that somebody of a similar size without heart disease, without narrowed arteries, and without drugs in their system could have lasted the full nine minutes?
  • Greyparrot
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    How do you know I'd die? How many pounds of pressure were on Floyd?

    I am about the same size and build as Floyd and I think Supadudz is as well. We both had people around 140 pounds put about half their weight on the sides of our necks and we could breathe fine plus no bruising.

    For whatever that's worth.

    Now I just have to put 3x Fentanyl in my system (smh)...
  • bmdrocks21
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    Don't forget to also obtain heart disease to make it even. Better start eating those Big Macs!
  • RationalMadman
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    No he wasn't, he was limp and silent, we don't know exactly when the life went out of him but he didn't appear conscious at all already by the second minute.
  • Greyparrot
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  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    According to an Atlantic Article, the coroner's note was that Floyd became unresponsive at 5:53 (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/george-floyd-kneeling/612409/). So, someone who had bad arteries, a bad heart, and one of the most dangerous drugs on the streets in his system lasted about six minutes. 

    I think that someone who is in average health and has no drugs in their system could probably last a few extra minutes. Is that an unreasonable assumption, and if you think it is, why?

    Because if officers should assume that everyone they arrest has heart disease and drugs in them, then they would struggle to find any gadget or hold that would suffice to detain criminals.
  • RationalMadman
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    Extremely unreasonable, yes.

    It is due to Floyd's raw strength and size that he even lasted longer than a minute. Try the same thing on a smaller built person and they'd be dead in 50 seconds.

  • oromagi
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    The biographies, criminal records,  intoxication levels of the victims in the cases you mention are mostly irrelevant to the LAPD criminal conduct.  Such considerations would suggest that police officers are entitled to adjust their apprehension strategies according to those facts.  But the police are never in possession of all the facts at the time of arrest and the Sixth Amendment to the US Constitution guarantees a civil right to innocence for all citizens until tried and convicted by a jury of that citizen's peers.   The police are strictly, constitutionally prohibited from punishing citizens for conduct of any kind.  The State may only use force in response to a imminent threat of unlawful force.

    We know that the LAPD had no reasonable expectation of unlawful force because when CHP Officer Singer pulled her gun on King, the ranking officer Stacey Koons took over jurisdiction (technically, King was the highway patrol's arrest) and ordered all weapons holstered.

    Four officers attempted to execute an unarmed arrest on King, who was 6'4 and well over 200lb, but he threw them off.
    • Five officers restrained King.  Rolando Solano testified that he did not consider King to be resisting arrest or threatening violence and therefore saw no justified use of force.  In his testimony, Solano blamed Koon for letting Powell, Wind, and Briseno attack without justification or self-control. Solano's partner, Briseno, later broke ranks and testified against Koons, Powell, and Wind.  Let's note that there were 17 other LAPD officers on site and well as 6 CHP officers and at least 10 civilian witnesses.  None of the LAPD officers supported the three defendents' claim of imminent threat.  Most LAPD testified that the 50+ blows appeared to be accidental (a shocking lie of police solidarity) Solano is now one of the highest ranking officers in LAPD.
      • The CHP officers on the scene reported the four attacking officers' names and badge numbers for criminal referral on the night of the attack.
    • The four officers all reported that King threw them off as they tried to arrest him but not one of the other 33 witnesses corroborated this statement.
      • If one just generically looks at any trial where the four defendents say one thing and 33 (34 including King) say something else, who are you going to believe?  Let's note that bmdrocks21 is taking the perps word for it in spite of overwhelming contradicting testimony by more objective witnesses.
    They unsuccessfully tried to use a taser, and he charged at them. Then, they began using their batons, but he kept trying to get up to flee until eventually eight officers were able to cuff him.
    The defendent officers claim "charging" but most other testified "fleeing"  King testified that he was simply trying to survive electroshock and would not ascribe any intent to any of his actions after the tasers hit him.

    The video aired by the media showed none of the violent resisting of arrest or the charging at the officers- only the beating completely out of context.
    Because there was none.  That is a fiction of the defending police contradicted by the other 88% of witnesses present.  Here is the whole of the video https://youtu.be/sb1WywIpUtY which starts at the moment Koons first used his taser.  The closest thing to violence comes at :02 when King groggily crashes into Powell.  If we look at :16, that is when the ranking officer Stacey Koons orders his men to stop- "Stop! Stop! That’s enough! That’s enough!"   I count 36 more blows  after that command in disobedience to a direct command from the ranking officer (eachblow, by itself, a fireable offense).  Why Koons let his officers disobey his command 36 times has never been explained but Koons certainly took the heat for it on the stand.  If Powell and WInd had simply obeyed their chain of command at :16,  I doubt the tape would have had much impact.  It's the full minute of incessant violence after, while King is obviously incapacitated and just flopping about from broken bones and electroshock that outraged the Nation.

    An article from the Missouri Kansas City Law School noted that the deceptive clips "turned what would otherwise have been a violent, but soon forgotten, encounter between the Los Angeles police and an uncooperative suspect into one of the most widely watched and discussed incidents of its kind".
    Let's recall that George Holliday offered the video to the LAPD the following morning.  The LAPD said no thank you because none of the LAPD from the night before had yet reported an incident.  KTLA said it edited out the first 13 seconds because 10 seconds of it was unsuitably blurry (hard to argue).

    We need not wonder whether the LAPD knew they'd done Rodney King wrong that night because they covered up their crimes. 

    • Koons improperly took over the arrest of King.
    • The police report neglected to mention any witnesses, especially the fact that there were two other passengers in the car during the car chase (clearly, these officers did not want those witnesses interviewed).
    • Although the cops bragged to the nurses at Pacifica Hospital how many times they'd hit King and Powell admitted over the police scanners that night that he had beaten anybody that badly in a while (his fellow officers on the scanner cried out "not again!") but the official police report only stated "cuts and bruises of a minor nature"  LAPD wasn't interested in the tape because all those many police officers failed to report the scope of King's beating so nobody was investigating.
      • In fact, the hospital found
        • 11 skull fractures,
        • fractured cheek bone
        • broken eye socket
        • multiple teeth missing
        • permanent brain damage
          • (LAPD were officially forbidden from direct baton blows to the head.  In trial, the officers claimed these blows to the head were unintentional)
        • Broken tibia
        • Broken ankle
        • multiple fractured ribs
        • renal failure
        • taser burns
        • multiple lacerations requiring stitches
        • multiple bruises
      • Lets also recall that although Allen and Helms did not resist arrest in any way both also received multiple injuries from Powell and Wind.  The fact that neither is even mentioned in any LAPD report on the night reveals much about the officer's culpability and intent.

    The LA Riots resulted after the police were not charged in King's beating, as the jury was shown the full clip with all of the facts present. After 5 days of massive riots and $1 billion in damage, the national guard quelled the savage mob.
    They were charged but not convicted because the trial was moved to SImi Valley, which is known as "Copland" in LA and considered the most racist white enclave in So. Cal.

    However, some of the police were eventually charged by the DOJ with "depriving King of his civil rights".
    WInd and Briseno were tried and aquitted.  Powell and Koon given less than mandatory minimum 10 years.  Ultimately, each served just under 2 years.

    We must not hesitate to deploy any means necessary to uphold the safety of the public from rioters and to protect the sanctity of our justice system. We only have the mere semblance of being a First World country when we allow officers to be sacrificial lambs to please angry mobs who deify felons. We cannot accept living under the tyranny of these unhinged, violent activists and opportunists.
    So then you would argue that the rioters who attacked the US Capitol on Jan 6th ought to have been constrained by massed volleys of deadly force?  I don't think would have de-escalated the situation very effectively.

    as Patrick Buchanan once said about the LA Riots "the one thing that could stop it: force, rooted in justice, and backed by moral courage."
    Let's recall that Pat Buchanan lost all credibility on the subjects of force, justice, and morality when he called for an instant trial and public hanging (lynching)  in Central Park of the Central Park Five (all black and hispanic 14 and 15 years olds) in 1989.  All five served long prison sentences for rape before being exonerated in 2002.  Donald Trump  rather famously stated while in office as POTUS that he still felt those boys should have been executed, in spite of their innocence.

  • fauxlaw
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    "the one thing that could stop it: force, rooted in justice, and backed by moral courage."
    Seems peacemaking, then applying the other honorable mentions of the Sermon on the Mount would accomplish more, better, and enduring. In fact, that brief philosophy would make a terrific political platform.
  • bmdrocks21
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    It’s not a platform. Just how to deal with the type of violence we witnessed over the past year
  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    It isn’t unreasonable. Chauvin knew the size of the person he kneeled on. He didn’t know the health conditions and drugs in his system. So, had someone of the same size that didn’t do a bunch of fentanyl and didn’t have heart disease get kneeled on in that manner, they would probably have been fine for the duration.

    You keep comparing what happened to Floyd with what would happen to a much smaller person. But a much smaller person wouldn’t need close as much force to bring under control. So, I’m comparing Floyd to a healthy version of himself because, again, the only info that Chauvin had was visual: Floyd’s size and strength and not invisible (things in his blood and heart functionality)
  • bmdrocks21
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    Hey, Oro! How ya been?

     But the police are never in possession of all the facts at the time of arrest
    Well, they were able to discern that the suspect was on some type of drug. They incorrectly thought he was on PCP because of his erratic behavior. Apparently, he was just drunk. I'm not saying that the criminal record was relevant to the arrest conduct, simply that two lifelong criminals were saints to similar movements.

    You know the funny thing? Had Rodney King simply laid on the ground instead of resisting arrest, he would have left the whole incident perfectly safe. Had George got in the car when asked, he would have been fine as well (except for, ya know, the fentanyl). I'm beginning to sense another pattern between these two cases: don't resist arrest and you'll be fine 99.99% of the time! Thanks for helping me discover more similarities.

    Solano is now one of the highest ranking officers in LAPD.
    Sounds like there are benefits to trying to convict your buddies in a post-LA Riot Los Angeles. Pretty sucky place to live now, too.

    Let's note that bmdrocks21 is taking the perps word for it in spite of overwhelming contradicting testimony by more objective witnesses.
    Duly noted.

    The defendent officers claim "charging" but most other testified "fleeing"  King testified that he was simply trying to survive electroshock and would not ascribe any intent to any of his actions after the tasers hit him.

    "members of the jury said this cut footage was essential to their decision to acquit the officers, who had claimed this step represented the first of a charge at them". The jury decided to acquit because of the footage cut out of the beginning. They decided to acquit based on evidence that most of the rioting public was not even aware of.

    That was another connection to the recent trial. Similarly, the general public did not see the full arrest in the Floyd case. They didn't see that he was given multiple chances to comply and that's why more aggressive measures were used.

    Let it be known that Oromagi is taking the word of King, who has a strong incentive to say he wasn't charging at officers. He knew he would "survive" considering that his friends were allowed to leave with little incident after they complied with police orders.

    Here is the whole of the video
    I am not going to pretend that Chauvin and the LAPD reacted perfectly. They probably did hit him a few more times than they should have (a couple past the 50 second mark were when it appeared he was not trying to get up), but you'll notice that during the vast majority of the blows, he is trying to rise to his feet. Considering they thought he was combative and charged them, you would think they would not want a big violent guy on drugs getting back on his feet, wouldn't you?

    • Koons improperly took over the arrest of King.
    Wikipedia said he was the ranking officer at the scene, so I'm not sure that's true.

    Lets also recall that although Allen and Helms did not resist arrest in any way both also received multiple injuries from Powell and Wind.  The fact that neither is even mentioned in any LAPD report on the night reveals much about the officer's culpability and intent.

    One had a laceration. One was supposedly kicked. Very minor, but should not have happened, considering it sounds like they were compliant.

    They were charged but not convicted because the trial was moved to SImi Valley, which is known as "Copland" in LA and considered the most racist white enclave in So. Cal.

    Wasn't aware of that. Will have to look into it.

    • In fact, the hospital found
    And would have had at worst a laceration if he had simply complied like his friends. But he had to try to charge them or "flee" and continue to try to get up. Yeah, he got beat up badly and ideally that should not happen during arrests, but he kept trying to get up when he clearly should not have. You mention taser burns, so obviously the taser did not work. They did not really have many other choices here.

    We need not wonder whether the LAPD knew they'd done Rodney King wrong that night because they covered up their crimes. 

    You seem quick to ascribe motives to the police but not to Rodney. I wonder why that is. Assuming they bragged about it to nurses (I didn't see that, but I'll take your word for it), do you think they would brag about committing what they had believed to be a crime to random people? Probably not. So, since they probably did not believe they did anything wrong, then why would they make a report?

    So then you would argue that the rioters who attacked the US Capitol on Jan 6th ought to have been constrained by massed volleys of deadly force?  I don't think would have de-escalated the situation very effectively.

    I would say that the national guard should have been called in. I don't, however, see a need for deadly force in that situation. The only damage was really related to breaking and entering. Contrast that with the BLM riots in which stores were looted of all valuables (destroying livelihoods of private citizens) and many buildings were burnt to the ground. The violence was not even comparable to what was seen at the Capitol. The only "violence" was on the part of the police by shooting a woman in the neck. Contrast that with the hundreds or thousands of brutal beatings and over ten murders that happened in the BLM riots.

    Let's recall that Pat Buchanan lost all credibility on the subjects of force, justice, and morality when he called for an instant trial and public hanging (lynching)  in Central Park of the Central Park Five (all black and hispanic 14 and 15 years olds) in 1989.  All five served long prison sentences for rape before being exonerated in 2002.
    They all confessed to one of the most heinous crimes and then later took it back. Looking back now, I'm sure it is easy to say "how could people say something bad about what should have been done to them" when they believed that they gang raped a woman. Can't speak for Trump, I'm here to defend Buchanan.

    And the difference is, they waited for the trial and did not raze businesses to the ground.
  • RationalMadman
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    He didn’t know the health conditions and drugs in his system.
    If you can't tell he's high as a kite, you should quit your job as a police officer. Drugs aside, Chauvin had 17 severe complaints of police abuse officially filed against him at the time of the arrest. Five is considered significant, he had 17, now 18 of course. I don't for a single second believe this man made a justifiable mistake. I am frankly fed up of replying to your bullshit Illuminati posts. Go fuck your bigoted elitist self.
  • bmdrocks21
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    @RM

    Well if he kept getting complaints, maybe he was a sucky cop that kept making mistakes. And he knew Floyd was on some type of drug, which is why it was harder to detain him. He did not know Floyd had a bad heart and had a drug that slows your heart rate.

    And you are correct about my Illuminati allegiances. REEEEEEEEEEEEE!