George Floyd Déjà vu

Debates: 3

Posts: 4,246

04.30.2021 11:50PM

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@bmdrocks21

And you guys do plenty of stuff to make normal people hate you. No need to use talking points lol. For instance, burning small businesses and saying "oh it's okay, you have insurance. Lives over property!"

Who are you talking to? I don’t recall arguing nor supporting “oh it's okay, you have insurance”.

They literally painted murals of Floyd with angel wings and a halo. They gave him a golden casket.

So what? This is your evidence that the BLM protests are about how perfect of a human being the protesters think George Floyd was, and not about the perceived injustices people who share his skin color have to deal with in this country?

Do you understand what it means when a person becomes a symbol, and how it impacts the way people view that individual?

But your groups aren't looking for justice. You're looking for a conviction.

Do you believe these two things are mutually exclusive?

We have a system of justice in this country for a reason. If someone resists arrest that is a violation for the courts to adjudicate. George Floyd never got that chance, so I couldn’t give a shit less about whatever he did. Justice in this situation was not for Derek Chauvin to impose.
No, it wasn't. I don't disagree with courts' role. I don't think it was optimal that a death occurred. However…

Not optimal… ok. This was kind of the heart of our entire discussion, is this all you have to say in response? Do you not understand how this would set some people off, especially if every time they turn on their TV or scroll through their phone there seems to be another example of this and every time it occurs the victim happens to look just like them?

So, to clarify, I'll say most times something bad happens to a criminal during the arrest, such as batons getting used, it is the fault of the criminal and not violent cops just jumpy to beat a stranger.

Your argument is a complete contradiction. You claim that police officers are not “violent cops just jumpy to beat a stranger”, but yet you have to accept that in order to blame their actions on the suspect.

To determine fault you must begin by looking at what the reasonable expectations should have been at the outset. If we begin with the presumption that police officers are public servants who are sworn to protect, then that is incompatible with officers using force beyond what is necessary to make an apprehension (the literal definition of police brutality).

So which is it, are cops violent stranger beating thugs which we all must be aware not to piss off, or are they public servants that we should expect better from? Because it seems to me like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Topic's author

#62

Debates: 6

Posts: 2,798

05.03.2021 04:48PM

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@Double_R

So what? This is your evidence that the BLM protests are about how perfect of a human being the protesters think George Floyd was, and not about the perceived injustices people who share his skin color have to deal with in this country?

Do you understand what it means when a person becomes a symbol, and how it impacts the way people view that individual?

How you depict someone is how you view them. When people put a Hitler moustache on Trump, they are comparing Trump to Hitler. When BLM puts a halo and wings on Floyd, they are comparing him to angels.

Do you believe these two things are mutually exclusive?

No, justice and convictions are not mutually exclusive. However, it isn't up to an angry mob that watched a small part of an arrest to determine if he is guilty or not. It isn't my part or yours, either. We can have an opinion, but that is quite different from an angry mob threatening violence if their opinion gets contradicted. I'm not going to loot a target over what I think was a faulty conviction. I just have to hope that the appeals process works. (but it probably won't. No judge wants to kill their political career and get doxxed by mobs to protect a low-level cop).

Not optimal… ok. This was kind of the heart of our entire discussion, is this all you have to say in response? Do you not understand how this would set some people off, especially if every time they turn on their TV or scroll through their phone there seems to be another example of this and every time it occurs the victim happens to look just like them?

I can understand why people are pissed, yes. That doesn't mean that they should be. The media constantly lies about every major case like this, and if they believed all of them (Breona Taylor "was shot in bed", "hands up don't shoot", etc.), they would be understandably mad.

The only reason it is on 24/7 is because the media wants you to see it. And barely anyone has heard of Daniel Shaver, who was following police orders, begging for his life. and crawling toward the cop on his hands and knees, yet got shot many times in the back and killed. Reason everyone knows about Floyd? They want to push a bullshit racist cop agenda. Reason they don't care about Daniel Shaver? Because they don't actually care about police misconduct, unless it can painted as racially-motivated.

More White men are killed by cops every year, but I'd bet you cannot name two from the last decade off the top of your head.

Your argument is a complete contradiction. You claim that police officers are not “violent cops just jumpy to beat a stranger”, but yet you have to accept that in order to blame their actions on the suspect.

To determine fault you must begin by looking at what the reasonable expectations should have been at the outset. If we begin with the presumption that police officers are public servants who are sworn to protect, then that is incompatible with officers using force beyond what is necessary to make an apprehension (the literal definition of police brutality).

So which is it, are cops violent stranger beating thugs which we all must be aware not to piss off, or are they public servants that we should expect better from? Because it seems to me like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.

I don't understand why you believe they are mutually exclusive. They are both true. They are public servants, but they aren't robots. They are people. People under stress can make poor decisions like shooting someone who didn't have a gun, but they thought they did because they were yelling and digging in a glove box.

Most don't ever commit brutality, but some do. And since police are imperfect, I think it is up to us and them to do everything to avoid that. That means keep your hands on your wheel, be respectful, let them know where you are grabbing for your wallet, etc. That also means that they should attempt to deescalate situations if possible.

However, maybe not from you, but from these anti-cop movements in general, they remove all fault from perpetrators and, when applicable, blame it on conscious racist motivations. There is no such thing as an honest mistake when a White cop and a Black perp are involved.

#63

Debates: 4

Posts: 22,927

05.03.2021 05:07PM

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@bmdrocks21

Most don't ever commit brutality, but some do. And since police are imperfect, I think it is up to us and them to do everything to avoid that. That means keep your hands on your wheel, be respectful, let them know where you are grabbing for your wallet, etc. That also means that they should attempt to deescalate situations if possible.

If most people were half as careful around cops as cops are around people, incidents would be far lower.

Defund and retrain the public.

Topic's author

#64

Debates: 6

Posts: 2,798

05.03.2021 08:31PM

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@Greyparrot

Really, it is a vicious cycle. When the media spreads more lies about “cops patrolling to find black people to kill”, you’re going to have more people being aggressive with cops and resisting arrest.

Then more people get killed by cops and so on. Although I’d bet that’s what BLM wants. Criminals are worth more to them dead

#65

Debates: 4

Posts: 22,927

05.03.2021 09:32PM

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@bmdrocks21

Joggers Matter

#66

Debates: 3

Posts: 4,246

05.05.2021 06:29PM

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@bmdrocks21

How you depict someone is how you view them. When people put a Hitler moustache on Trump, they are comparing Trump to Hitler. When BLM puts a halo and wings on Floyd, they are comparing him to angels.

You are completely disregarding the reason why he is being depicted at all. George Floyd is nationally known for one thing... his death. The depiction is meant to draw attention to the thing his death did not take into account... the fact that he was a human being. The praiseworthyness of his individual character is not the subject. I don’t understand what is so difficult about that.

it isn't up to an angry mob that watched a small part of an arrest to determine if he is guilty or not. It isn't my part or yours, either. We can have an opinion, but that is quite different from an angry mob threatening violence if their opinion gets contradicted

The idea that the jury convicted Chauvin because they were scared of a mob is pure right wing fantasy. Provide one piece of evidence to support otherwise.

Reason they don't care about Daniel Shaver? Because they don't actually care about police misconduct, unless it can painted as racially-motivated.

BLM is arguing that these kind of incidents happen *disproportionally* to black people, so showing an example it happening to a white person does not substantiate your claim that they don’t care about their espoused concerns.

I don't understand why you believe they are mutually exclusive.

Because they are contradictory assumptions. You seem to have lost track of the conversation, we were talking about fault and I was explaining why you’re wrong no matter which side of that line you choose. Let me try this again with an analogy;

Person A decides to store rat poison in the pantry in a jar labeled “salt”. Person B finds it and then uses that jar to season a plate for Person C. Person C dies. Whose fault is it, Person A or B?

Obviously it’s Person A. Why? Because Person B had no reason to believe that a white powdery substance in the pantry in a jar labeled “salt” would have been anything but salt.

It’s all about expectations at the outset. You are claiming the expectation is that police should be regarded as public servants who are there to protect and also as violent cops just jumpy to beat a stranger. These are directly opposing concepts. If both accurately describe the officer than the latter is the true characterization. You cannot claim you are not a murderer because you didn’t kill anyone today.

So you are wrong either way. If the *expectation* of police officers is that they are public servants tasked with our protection, then it is not the fault of the perp resisting arrest when they are shot and killed for resisting arrest because as I already explained, that entails that the perp had reason to expect they would be killed. But if the expectation is that they are violent and will respond with deadly force if you don’t comply with their orders... then the entire problem just sailed right over your head.

You characterized the latter as a result of imperfection. To accept that as the standard for a police officer is appalling. Imagine taking the same attitude with airline pilots; “some are imperfect”. Well sure, every human being is imperfect, but if we started seeing plane crashes every month because of “imperfect” pilots I’m pretty sure you would be at the front of the line demanding change.

they remove all fault from perpetrators and, when applicable, blame it on conscious racist motivations.

It has nothing to do with motivations. The central gripe is not that the cop meant to kill the person because they were black. It’s about cops having a different attitude towards white people as they do black people. What is that line we always hear from officers... “I feared for my life”. Why? How do you fear for your life when someone is walking away from you? How do you fear for your life when the person you pulled over is telling you upfront they have a legally registered gun in the car? And do you honestly believe the fear these officers tend to experience in these situations is no different when it’s a black suspect vs a white one?

#67